How much detail does a workplace legally need when you are out?

MaroonAndGreen

Yeah so the title is the question. I was off for a day last week due to family issues at home, and that's the reason I gave at the time and seemingly that's not good enough. I've been pushed to tell the exact story and issue by my employer "because we need exact details why you haven't attended". With an issue so personal, with family matters involved do I really need to go into the detail?

Nody

You went AWOL and the company is trying to give you a chance to justify it; of course you can tell them to sod off but expect to end up in a disciplinary accordingly as well for being AWOL accordingly.

lawred2

Nody wrote: »

You went AWOL and the company is trying to give you a chance to justify it; of course you can tell them to sod off but expect to end up in a disciplinary accordingly as well for being AWOL accordingly.

Don't be so dramatic... he's not a soldier in wartime.

OP - I think you are entitled to reasonable degree of privacy. I have never been questioned in 14 years of working as to the nature of leave needed for personal matters. Did you request force majeure or annual leave? If FM - they may be looking to see who the matter was in relation to and whether your relationship to that person qualifies for FM. If annual leave you don't have to explain anything.

Do you by any chance take a lot of personal days?

Lux23

Well maybe just take the time as annual leave if you don't want to divulge what happened or you can ask that you tell one person in HR privately.

SwD

I would just tell them the truth, or as close to it as you wish.

The terms of your contract would outline the notice period you would have to give for taking time off work, but your employer should permit absence in the case of personal grievance.

Its more about them making sure you were in fact where you said you were, and not on the 19th hole of your favorite golf course.

Don't make life difficult for yourself.

Nody

lawred2 wrote: »

Don't be so dramatic... he's not a soldier in wartime.

It's a suitable term in or out of military; the OP was absent without leave or permission; ergo he's a no show when he's due to work which is likely to lead to a disciplinary on why he did not bother to show up. Now if it was FM or a reason they may consider then the company has given him an option to explain that but if he decides to simply state "I had to go" then why would they simply shrug about it?

SwD

Nody wrote: »

It's a suitable term in or out of military; the OP was absent without leave or permission; ergo he's a no show when he's due to work which is likely to lead to a disciplinary on why he did not bother to show up. Now if it was FM or a reason they may consider then the company has given him an option to explain that but if he decides to simply state "I had to go" then why would they simply shrug about it?

Additionally it can set a dangerous precedent for other employees.


I have to go

Why?

Just Because

lawred2

SwD wrote: »

Additionally it can set a dangerous precedent for other employees.


I have to go

Why?

Just Because

Well I presume the OP wasn't that flippant. Maybe he was. But I doubt it. Do you think that's how it went?

SwD

lawred2 wrote: »

Well I presume the OP wasn't that flippant. Maybe he was. But I doubt it. Do you think that's how it went?

I don't think that's how it went for the OP.

That said, i don't know.


I was merely pointing to the fact that if one employee can take a day without justification, it can create a trend.

MaroonAndGreen

SwD wrote: »

Additionally it can set a dangerous precedent for other employees.


I have to go

Why?

Just Because

I explained that a family member was in difficulty at home and that I needed to be there. I thought that would be sufficient but I was then basically forced into telling the exact issue which is quite personal. I was quizzed thoroughly, even asked questions like will you be driving home or getting a bus etc etc.

I just don't think it's appropriate that I need to go into such detail, especially when it's apparent it's a family matter. What I want to know is if I'm obliged to go into that detail or not? Can I say no I'm sorry I've told you it's a family matter and that's it? I know obviously I can say that... but legally I suppose am I obliged to give full details?

I appreciate all replies but that question hasn't really been answered.

lawred2

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

I explained that a family member was in difficulty at home and that I needed to be there. I thought that would be sufficient but I was then basically forced into telling the exact issue which is quite personal. I was quizzed thoroughly, even asked questions like will you be driving home or getting a bus etc etc.

I just don't think it's appropriate that I need to go into such detail, especially when it's apparent it's a family matter. What I want to know is if I'm obliged to go into that detail or not? Can I say no I'm sorry I've told you it's a family matter and that's it? I know obviously I can say that... but legally I suppose am I obliged to give full details?

I appreciate all replies but that question hasn't really been answered.

did you request FM or annual leave? You didn't answer that..

MaroonAndGreen

lawred2 wrote: »

did you request FM or annual leave? You didn't answer that..

No I didn't, this was a very sudden situation. I wasn't in work when I informed them I would be out the next day, it was evening time.

grogi

SwD wrote: »

Additionally it can set a dangerous precedent for other employees.


I have to go

Why?

Just Because

And employer has a valid response to that: NO.

All absence and holidays must be approved beforehand. Typically there is some leeway, but nobody should expect to be able to just don't show to work because of...

Loveinapril

What I am getting from your post is that you didn't ask for any type of official leave, thats why they may be asking you questions- to ascertain whether it qualifies as Force Majeure. Just pick a type of leave (annual or sick leave) and ask them to mark it down as that.

lawred2

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

No I didn't, this was a very sudden situation. I wasn't in work when I informed them I would be out the next day, it was evening time.

A very sudden situation is exactly what Force Majeure leave is intended for. There are specific familial circumstances that allow for taking this type leave. Force Majeure is not considered annual leave. You are entitled to three such days in a year limited to five in three years (I think). FM is unplanned but necessary leave.

They could simply be trying to ascertain whether the leave you took could be considered FM.

SwD

lawred2 wrote: »

They could simply be trying to ascertain whether the leave you took could be considered FM.

And back to the original question we go.

Is he obliged to disclose the circumstances?

MaroonAndGreen

SwD wrote: »

And back to the original question we go.

Is he obliged to disclose the circumstances?

Yes exactly. Thank you.

MaroonAndGreen

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

I explained that a family member was in difficulty at home and that I needed to be there. I thought that would be sufficient but I was then basically forced into telling the exact issue which is quite personal. I was quizzed thoroughly, even asked questions like will you be driving home or getting a bus etc etc.

What I want to know is if I'm obliged to go into that detail or not? Can I say no I'm sorry I've told you it's a family matter and that's it? I know obviously I can say that... but legally I suppose am I obliged to give full details?

This basically is the whole point of the thread, I think it's been lost a bit.

SwD

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

This basically is the whole point of the thread, I think it's been lost a bit.

To be honest i'd say, again, tell them the truth.

Whats the worst that can happen?

I get its personal, but request that it remain confidential.

Alternatively ask if you can withhold the reason and take it as annual leave?

I get it. Morally it seems inappropriate. But corporate structures rarely contain a moral compass.

From a legal standpoint, i'm still unsure about any obligation.

MaroonAndGreen

SwD wrote: »

To be honest i'd say, again, tell them the truth.

Whats the worst that can happen?

I get its personal, but request that it remain confidential.

Alternatively ask if you can withhold the reason and take it as annual leave?

I get it. Morally it seems inappropriate. But corporate structures rarely contain a moral compass.

It's done now... happened last week. If it happens again I'll be taking it as annual leave I think.

Loveinapril

SwD wrote: »

And back to the original question we go.

Is he obliged to disclose the circumstances?

I would say yes, because FM is specific to injury or illness of a specific family member, so they would need the info to check if it is the right leave. Other than "my mam was seriously ill" I wouldn't be giving any more specifics if I didn't want to, but it may be easier to just tell them.

lawred2

SwD wrote: »

And back to the original question we go.

Is he obliged to disclose the circumstances?

I don't think we're back to the original question because the OP hasn't clarified what type of leave he requested or that HR are seeking clarification for.

However it's probably the case that FM was not requested.

Given that the OP is now in a situation where neither FM was formally requested nor annual leave sought in advance; whether or not there are legal obligations on full disclosure I can't really say but it'll probably serve them best at this stage to be as honest as possible (without disclosing personal details about third parties) and let HR decide how to classify it.

Skatedude

Loveinapril wrote: »

I would say yes, because FM is specific to injury or illness of a specific family member, so they would need the info to check if it is the right leave. Other than "my mam was seriously ill" I wouldn't be giving any more specifics if I didn't want to, but it may be easier to just tell them.

So, for example. if you had a family member who was raped? You would have no problem telling people in work that was the reason you didn't come in?

MaroonAndGreen

Loveinapril wrote: »

I would say yes, because FM is specific to injury or illness of a specific family member, so they would need the info to check if it is the right leave. Other than "my mam was seriously ill" I wouldn't be giving any more specifics if I didn't want to, but it may be easier to just tell them.

I've no interest in FM if it means disclosing info of that kind.

dev100

Most employers will facilitate short notice time off ie if you ring in and a child is sick or your car is knackered. Most bosses know life happens outside of work and are human too . If you don't have a habit of taking random days it's accommodated I personally don't like to take FM days I'll take a days hols instead I just don't want to go down that road of explaining to many personal details. Only time I've seen bosses get noses out of joint is with people who needlessly cause them extra hassle then they become awkward .

OP if you have spare hols use one of those days if not either take it as unpaid or Take as an FM and give the min amount of info about the situation but enough for them to write it up with the valid reason

lawred2

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

I've no interest in FM if it means disclosing info of that kind.

Force Majeure

If you have a family crisis the Parental Leave Acts 1998 and 2006 give an employee a limited right to leave from work. This is known as force majeure leave. It arises where, for urgent family reasons, the immediate presence of the employee is indispensable owing to an injury or illness of a close family member.

Force majeure leave does not give any entitlement to leave following the death of a close family member.

A close family member is defined as one of the following:

A child or adopted child of the employee
The husband, wife or partner of the employee
Parent or grandparent of the employee
Brother or sister of the employee
Person to whom the employee has a duty of care (that is, he/she is acting in loco parentis)
A person in a relationship of domestic dependency with the employee
Persons of any other class (if any) as may be prescribed
The maximum amount of leave is 3 days in any 12-month period or 5 days in a 36-month period. You are entitled to be paid while you are on force majeure leave - see 'How to apply' below for more details. Your employer may grant you further leave.

Force majeure leave: you must notify your employer as soon as practicably possible that you need to avail of force majeure leave. Immediately on your return to work, you must make your application in writing to your employer. Your application in writing should include your name, PPS number, name and address of your employer, date(s) on which you took force majeure leave and reasons why, and your relationship to the person who was injured or ill. Your contract of employment may require you to provide a medical certificate.

Based on that there are obligations to disclose

SwD

lawred2 wrote: »

Based on that there are obligations to disclose

Hallelujah

mel123

Just make something up if you dont want to tell the exact truth, no biggie

lawred2

SwD wrote: »

Hallelujah

yeah but he didn't request FM so....

Loveinapril

Skatedude wrote: »

So, for example. if you had a family member who was raped? You would have no problem telling people in work that was the reason you didn't come in?

It's not 'people in work', it's your boss, who has a duty to keep things confidential. You could word something like that in a way where boundaries are kept. "My sister suffered a traumatic event and was injured/ hospitalised/ Gardaí are involved" etc.
I have used Force Majeure before and didn't go into mad details, I just said that my partner had to be hospitalised following after effects of a medical procedure and I needed the day off. The boxes were ticked regarding FM and I didn't really give away any private information.

dr.fuzzenstein

SwD wrote: »

Additionally it can set a dangerous precedent for other employees.


I have to go

Why?

Just Because

Yes, a dangerous precedent where people can just nip to the bank or sort something out with the local authority as long as their position is covered and their work gets done. This may eventually result in a kind of flex-time arrangement where people can come and go as they please and then what you got? Well, my workplace.
And it has resulted in absolute chaos and bedlam a lot of people just going about their work.

Anyway, back on topic. It is hard to say to exactly what degree the employer has a right to personal details for forced absence. If I rang in saying I had the runs and they asked me about frequency and consistency along with samples and photographic evidence of said runs, I would seriously reconsider working there.

OK, real world example. My wife is sick with pneumonia today. I actually had to take the morning off to bring her to the doc, take care of the dogs and clean up around the house.
If my HR department would grill me to the extent that OP got grilled, I would be seriously miffed.
It does not point to a quality employer that trusts and empowers his employees.

lawred2

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

OK, real world example. My wife is sick with pneumonia today. I actually had to take the morning off to bring her to the doc, take care of the dogs and clean up around the house.
If my HR department would grill me to the extent that OP got grilled, I would be seriously miffed.
It does not point to a quality employer that trusts and empowers his employees.

100%

MaroonAndGreen

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Yes, a dangerous precedent where people can just nip to the bank or sort something out with the local authority as long as their position is covered and their work gets done. This may eventually result in a kind of flex-time arrangement where people can come and go as they please and then what you got? Well, my workplace.
And it has resulted in absolute chaos and bedlam a lot of people just going about their work.

Anyway, back on topic. It is hard to say to exactly what degree the employer has a right to personal details for forced absence. If I rang in saying I had the runs and they asked me about frequency and consistency along with samples and photographic evidence of said runs, I would seriously reconsider working there.

OK, real world example. My wife is sick with pneumonia today. I actually had to take the morning off to bring her to the doc, take care of the dogs and clean up around the house.
If my HR department would grill me to the extent that OP got grilled, I would be seriously miffed.
It does not point to a quality employer that trusts and empowers his employees.

Very similar situation in fact. I was shocked at being asked how and when I travelled home. Who was I attending too? What's wrong with them? This was all after I had said it's a family emergency, was told that's not enough, I replied "is that not a sufficient reason, there is no need for details here surely?". And I basically gave in to the pressure of a stern manager on the other side of the phone. Looking back I'm sorry I didn't hold my ground and say no I'm sorry but that's private. The more I think about it the more inappropriate I think it was that I was required to go into them details.

dr.fuzzenstein

^^^^
Plenty of managers who got to their position by sheer force of their ignorance and obnoxiousness. Promoted by people who watched too much of the apprentice and now think this is how business works.
You could certainly ask HR politely to clarify if this level of detail is necessary.

J Mysterio

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

Very similar situation in fact. I was shocked at being asked how and when I travelled home. Who was I attending too? What's wrong with them? This was all after I had said it's a family emergency, was told that's not enough, I replied "is that not a sufficient reason, there is no need for details here surely?". And I basically gave in to the pressure of a stern manager on the other side of the phone. Looking back I'm sorry I didn't hold my ground and say no I'm sorry but that's private. The more I think about it the more inappropriate I think it was that I was required to go into them details.

Sounds like a dick boss. What industry are you in?

davo10

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, you were absent from work without leave being granted, you weren't sick, you weren't unable to work, you are not claiming it as FM, but you are unhappy with being asked for details/explanation as to why you were absent from work?

So, let's say a colleague wants a lie in or hasn't gotten a day off when requested and decides to call in giving the same meagre details you did, how's the Boss supposed to know which one to believe?

MaroonAndGreen

davo10 wrote: »

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, you were absent from work without leave being granted, you weren't sick, you weren't unable to work, you are not claiming it as FM, but you are unhappy with being asked for details/explanation as to why you were absent from work?

So, let's say a colleague wants a lie in or hasn't gotten a day off when requested and decides to call in giving the same meagre details you did, how's the Boss supposed to know which one to believe?

I was absolutely unable to work. I had a family member dependent on me who was unwell.

Someone asked the industry. Insurance.

davo10

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

I was absolutely unable to work. I had a family member dependent on me who was unwell.

Someone asked the industry. Insurance.

Sorry but you are absolutely wrong, you were not unfit for work, you took a day for personal reasons. I am not disputing the fact that you needed to be at home, but I believe your employer has a right to know why you didn't turn up for work when you were fit to do so.

As others have pointed out, there is annual leave, absense due to illness (yours), maternity leave and FM, do any of these apply to you?

J Mysterio

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

Someone asked the industry. Insurance.

Sorry to be unkind, but people in insurance are nosy bastards!

Still unnaceptable, presuming you have been there a while and are a good worker.

MaroonAndGreen

I gave an explanation, but I'm unhappy at the detail I was pressured into going into. I understand an explanation is needed I just thought it was inappropriate the level of detail asked.

MaroonAndGreen

davo10 wrote: »

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

I was absolutely unable to work. I had a family member dependent on me who was unwell.

Someone asked the industry. Insurance.

Sorry but you are absolutely wrong, you were not unfit for work, you took a day for personal reasons. I am not disputing the fact that you needed to be at home, but I believe your employer has a right to know why you didn't turn up for work when you were fit to do so.

And the employer was told it was a personal family emergency. I think it's totally unacceptable to ask for further details in that situation. Maybe you don't but I do.

dr.fuzzenstein

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

I gave an explanation, but I'm unhappy at the detail I was pressured into going into. I understand an explanation is needed I just thought it was inappropriate the level of detail asked.

Just one thing I want to clarify, did you ring in advance and let your employer know you weren't going to make it, or did you just not turn up and dealt with it the next day?
That could explain the company being a bit more dickish about the whole thing.
If you did ring ahead, yeah, totally overboard.

DuffleBag

Should've just rang in sick yourself. No need for a cert if under 2 days.

MaroonAndGreen

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

I gave an explanation, but I'm unhappy at the detail I was pressured into going into. I understand an explanation is needed I just thought it was inappropriate the level of detail asked.

Just one thing I want to clarify, did you ring in advance and let your employer know you weren't going to make it, or did you just not turn up and dealt with it the next day?
That could explain the company being a bit more dickish about the whole thing.
If you did ring ahead, yeah, totally overboard.

Rang in advance.

RunRoryRun

Asking about who it was is legitimate as FM may only apply to certain family members and not others.

J Mysterio

I think the real problem is the manner of questioning. The implication.

MaroonAndGreen

J Mysterio wrote: »

I think the real problem is the manner of questioning. The implication.

The manner of questioning was as though I was lying. Which has me riled up to be honest. The least of my worries was my workplace. And then having to justify it with all the details over the phone at that time was wrong IMO.

MaroonAndGreen

Also I should have added earlier, I was never aware FM existed until it was mentioned on this thread, so apologies for my lack of engagement on that

the_pen_turner

i think the real question should be , where is the line between being a legit reason and an excuse.
surely what the employer is doing is looking for a reason to complain about the reason.

lawred2

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

The manner of questioning was as though I was lying. Which has me riled up to be honest. The least of my worries was my workplace. And then having to justify it with all the details over the phone at that time was wrong IMO.

Was it your line manager or someone from HR?

HR people are often seasoned ars€holes who would wind up the most placid of us..

MaroonAndGreen

lawred2 wrote: »

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

The manner of questioning was as though I was lying. Which has me riled up to be honest. The least of my worries was my workplace. And then having to justify it with all the details over the phone at that time was wrong IMO.

Was it your line manager or someone from HR?

HR people are often seasoned ars€holes who would wind up the most placid of us..

Line manager. I don't know how to approach this tomorrow to be honest.