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Season 7 - Speculation Thread - "Non book readers"

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    #62
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    BetsyEllen wrote: »
    Did Rhaegar marry Lyanna or was she pregnant through rape?
    Just wondering if Jon is still a bastard.
    I'm not sure how much is talking out of school here, but it's not revealing any spoilers.
    Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love, though Rhaegar was married to one of the Martells (Oberyn's sister, who was murdered by the Mountain).

    Robert Baratheon was betrothed to Lyanna, so when she ran off with/was kidnapped by Rhaegar, that kind of kicked off the whole mess.

    So yes, he is still a bastard.


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    #63
    BetsyEllen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭BetsyEllen


    seamus wrote: »
    I'm not sure how much is talking out of school here, but it's not revealing any spoilers.
    Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love, though Rhaegar was married to one of the Martells (Oberyn's sister, who was murdered by the Mountain).

    Robert Baratheon was betrothed to Lyanna, so when she ran off with/was kidnapped by Rhaegar, that kind of kicked off the whole mess.

    So yes, he is still a bastard.

    Thanks, I wasn't clear on the backstory smile.png


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    #64
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    #65
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users Posts: 7,415 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    ....... wrote: »
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    Well it isn't just the maths, even though that's inescapable and wouldn't take a nanosecond to work out. The cut from Lyanna's baby's face to Jon Snow's should be confirmation enough.

    But no, it certainly wasn't spelled out by somebody saying that Lyanna's baby is Jon Snow.

    It kind of reminds me about the mad speculation that Stannis was still alive because we didn't see Brienne kill him.


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    #66
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,172 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    seamus wrote: »
    I'm not sure how much is talking out of school here, but it's not revealing any spoilers.
    Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love, though Rhaegar was married to one of the Martells (Oberyn's sister, who was murdered by the Mountain).

    Robert Baratheon was betrothed to Lyanna, so when she ran off with/was kidnapped by Rhaegar, that kind of kicked off the whole mess.

    So yes, he is still a bastard.
    Is he?

    Why bother to include the Targaryens practicing polygamy in the past (Aegon marrying both his sisters) if not to create a precedent for Rhaegar having done the same?


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    #67
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    #68
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users Posts: 7,415 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    ....... wrote: »
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    That's the bit that's glaringly obvious. I mean:
    1. Rhaegar made off with Lyanna, whether willingly or unwillingly, she went with him. That's been established many times throughout the series.
    2. The only other possible father was Robert Baratheon, but there would be no need to keep that fact a secret from him. Or from Catelyn.
    3. In fact any other father would be unlikely to cause Ned to lie to his own wife about Jon's parentage. Including the fact that he was Lyanna's son.
    4. Only Targaryen parentage would require such a closely guarded secret to be kept.
    5. The only reason to lie about Jon being Lyanna's son would be the obvious and fatal (to Jon) conclusion that Robert Baratheon would draw from that fact.
    6. The Tower of Joy was being guarded by three of the Kingsguard, including Arthur Dayne. If it wasn't Rhaegar's child they were guarding, who's was it that would require such strong protection?
    It doesn't need to be spelled out.


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    #69
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    #70
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    #71
    alchemist33
    Registered Users Posts: 10,969 ✭✭✭✭alchemist33


    ....... wrote: »
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    My wife thought Jon was Robert's son until we had a discussion after Monday's show. Whether I'd have known without here, I don't know.


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    #72
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users Posts: 7,415 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    ....... wrote: »
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    So the Tower of Joy flashbacks just whooshed them?


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    #73
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    #74
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users Posts: 7,415 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    ....... wrote: »
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    Surely that would have intrigued them more?


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    #75
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    ....... wrote: »
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    4:45 into this was pretty much beating us over the head with a stick about it I thought (it's from the episode, nothing extra included!). Not overly so, but just really driving it home.



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    #76
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    #77
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    ....... wrote: »
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    As someone who hasn't read the book and very rarely partakes in discussion on the show outside my own circle of non-book friends I can confirm that I thought it was very, very obvious.


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    #78
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    #79
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    #80
    alchemist33
    Registered Users Posts: 10,969 ✭✭✭✭alchemist33


    Sleepy wrote: »

    Though admitting that might call into question how two 1000+ ship fleets somehow managed not to spot each other in such a relatively small piece of open water...

    A very good point. I noticed this when they showed a map on the after-show.


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    #81
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users Posts: 7,415 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    ....... wrote: »
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    Anything I saw just had his first name. Not enough syllables for 'Targaryen' as well.

    The only likely confirmations to come are from Bran, if he heard the whisper and from just 'knowing stuff' and the possibility of Howland Reed turning up if he's still alive. We're not going to get another Tower of Joy flashback.

    Bran still has a long way to go to get to Winterfell and
    Howland Reed has never even been cast, to the best of my knowledge
    .


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    #82
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users Posts: 7,415 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    alchemist33 wrote: »
    A very good point. I noticed this when they showed a map on the after-show.
    As I said above, they would have come from different directions. Also, the timeline is pretty much expressed by Cersei when she talks about Dany sailing for Westeros, but not having landed yet. Pretty much straight after that, Euron arrives and it's only at the end that we see Dany land at Dragonstone.

    Plus it's surprising how short a distance it actually is to the horizon on this planet. Less than three miles at sea level.


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    #83
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    #84
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    ....... wrote: »
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    We didn't see Hodor actually die. Is there any doubt that he is dead?

    Not everything needs to be spelled out in big bright letters just to be 100% sure. In fact oftentimes when it is the show/film suffers as a result.


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    #85
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    #86
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    ....... wrote: »
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    You'd need to ask them that. Maybe they didn't feel they needed to say it out loud? Maybe they thought the scene worked better that way?

    HBO have 100% confirmed it so it's not as though they "hid" the name of the father to create any doubt. Rhaegar is Jons father.

    I'm just saying that as someone who doesn't know the books or talk to anyone who does I found it obvious. Personally I think the scene is more powerful the way it is and that's probably why they did it that way. But if they were looking to cause doubt then nobody told HBO that. Which would lead me to believe that was not the reason for the whispering.


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    #87
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users Posts: 7,415 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    ....... wrote: »
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    They only held back Jon's real name. Afair, closed captioning at the time had the rest of what she said in subtitles.

    The obvious reason to hold it back is to create some interest in what his name actually is. The speculation at the time was huge and armies of lip readers tried to decipher it.

    The best one I saw was 'Gary' :D:D:D


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    #88
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    To be fair, they may not have even told the actors what it was and just told her to say "Gary Targaryen" so it looked like her lips were moving. Or she could have even just said, "His name is Targaryen".


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    #89
    .......
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    #90
    Feets
    Registered Users Posts: 271 ✭✭Feets


    Here's another theory and correct me if it's not possible...could the Knight King be Dany's dad, back from the dead?


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    #91
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users Posts: 7,415 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    Feets wrote: »
    Here's another theory and correct me if it's not possible...could the Knight King be Dany's dad, back from the dead?
    No.

    He was killed in KL, not north of the wall.


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