Government Capital Spending on Infrastructure

marno21 · 11-07-2017 6:50pm #1

We have a thread on this in the Roads forum so I think there could be reason for one here too.

To discuss infrastructure spending in general (non-roads) without it clogging up the Metro North thread for example.

To start, the IMF being called in to help with an infrastructure plan for Ireland.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/the-imf-is-back-experts-return-to-advise-government-on-spending-plan-35916627.html

cgcsb · 11-07-2017 7:07pm

I do hope something happens soon, even a solid announcement. The state of transport in this country is atrocious, even Greece is miles a ahead of us.

D.L.R. · 11-07-2017 7:30pm

Good. Outside help. The Irish state has proven itself incapable of doing the job itself.

CatInABox · 11-07-2017 8:27pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

Good. Outside help. The Irish state has proven itself incapable of doing the job itself.

Time and time again....

Personally speaking, I think it's a little bit of cover for political spending. Everyone knows what has to be done, but getting it approved politically has always been the problem. Now Leo and the gang can point to the IMF report and say "These guys say it's vital, so we're going to prioritise that instead of the road in the middle of the nowhere that is only being considered because of one very vocal politician."

Zebra3 · 11-07-2017 8:47pm

Ireland being benchmarked against similarly developed countries?

Denmark, please benchmark it against Denmark.

bk · 11-07-2017 9:03pm

This is the important part:

Ireland's infrastructure will be benchmarked against comparable developed countries

I suspect that with the exception of the M20, they will find that we already have more then enough roads. But that we are seriously lacking in public transport infrastructure, in particular trams and Metros. Probably also cycling infrastructure.

As others have said about, it is likely to be the necessary cover to get a big investment in Dublin going, without too much complaining from rural Ireland.

myshirt · 11-07-2017 9:11pm

Ireland needs a strong Dublin, but Dublin needs a strong region. The M20 has to be the top of the list by a mile at only €1BN. A bargain. Do that, and develop the airports and raise the roof for investment. After that, yes we need more and more investment in Dublin because let's be fair, on a European wide level and global level Dublin is a small city, albeit a city that is boxing smart.

bk · 11-07-2017 9:20pm

myshirt wrote: »

Ireland needs a strong Dublin, but Dublin needs a strong region. The M20 has to be the top of the list by a mile at only €1BN. A bargain. Do that, and develop the airports and raise the roof for investment. After that, yes we need more and more investment in Dublin because let's be fair, on a European wide level and global level Dublin is a small city, albeit a city that is boxing smart.

I'm a Corkonian living in Dublin. The M20 is needed, but Metro North is far more important IMO.

The regional airports don't really need any more development, we already have far too many for such a small country! And they are already pretty well developed. Dublin Airport on the other hand badly needs the second runway, badly needs Metro North and needs to start thinking about a third terminal.

I suspect M20 will get the go ahead, but it will be the one project to say that areas outside of Dublin get development, while in fact the majority of investment will be heading to Dublin, as that is where it is really needed.

Metro North will likely be priority number one.

Zebra3 · 11-07-2017 9:32pm

myshirt wrote: »

Ireland needs a strong Dublin, but Dublin needs a strong region. The M20 has to be the top of the list by a mile at only €1BN. A bargain. Do that, and develop the airports and raise the roof for investment. After that, yes we need more and more investment in Dublin because let's be fair, on a European wide level and global level Dublin is a small city, albeit a city that is boxing smart.

It's a pity that there's not one airport serving both Cork and Limerick equidistant between the two that would help transport links between the two cities, better air connections and allow the two cities to develop a hub to offer an alternative to Dublin.

LeinsterDub · 11-07-2017 9:58pm

bk wrote: »

without too much complaining from rural Ireland.

Owe rural Ireland will still complain they'll jump in their cars and drive up the fancy motorways, some will even use their free transport to have a leisurely trip up in the failing railway to protest that bally3people doesn't have its motorway.

cgcsb · 11-07-2017 10:25pm

Just the other day a group of grain farmers blocked traffic on Stephen's Green with a combine harvester. Their demand: they want to be compensated for a bad harvest due to poor weather. The scary thing is a few years ago they almost certainly would have been given the cash and indeed they still might.

This is the political climate we are coming from, we are the most rural orientated society in Europe and that is only changing at a glacial place. Investing in metro, BRT, Dublin airport and DARTu will be uphill all the way, there will be endless ill-informed rants about how Kilbeggan should have an airport and so on.

Idbatterim · 12-07-2017 9:23am

I suspect M20 will get the go ahead, but it will be the one project to say that areas outside of Dublin get development, while in fact the majority of investment will be heading to Dublin, as that is where it is really needed.

Metro North will likely be priority number one.

let that be the the deal then, cork-limerick get the m20 and dublin metro north. There are schemes nearing completion for hundreds of millions, that are mickey mouse schemes in terms of national importance, that will be completed soon, with MN and M20 etc going back to the drawing board. There isnt enough money to please everyone, schemes of national importance should now be fasttracked as much as possible. The other schemes can wait...

looking forward to hearing what the IMF have to say, no doubt they will say MN is badly needed...

As others have said about, it is likely to be the necessary cover to get a big investment in Dublin going, without too much complaining from rural Ireland.

give them the m20, the insane billions that have been spent on rural motorways to link small towns to the motorway network is ridiculous. I couldnt care less about what some ignorant muppets down the country think about dublin getting everything, Dublin has been neglected far too long! What has the boom given us ? the port tunnel and two disconnected light rail lines, one using an old track bed for the most part. No other comparable capital in europe with a similar population has anything like the disgrace of the transport "system" we have in dublin

lisasimpson · 12-07-2017 9:27am

Base the metro north on something like the over/underground built in recent years in Porto. Was over there recently. Went from city center to the airport. Hassle free was the business

Idbatterim · 12-07-2017 9:29am

lisasimpson wrote: »

Base the metro north on something like the over/underground built in recent years in Porto. Was over there recently. Went from city center to the airport. Hassle free was the business

make it driver-less too!

This is the political climate we are coming from, we are the most rural orientated society in Europe and that is only changing at a glacial place. Investing in metro, BRT, Dublin airport and DARTu will be uphill all the way, there will be endless ill-informed rants about how Kilbeggan should have an airport and so on.

Id really wonder if part of the problem with getting MN and DU built, is because it will allow and cause large growth in the region, allow far more homes to be built etc. thus giving dublin and the greater dublin area far more influence.

LeinsterDub · 12-07-2017 11:03am

Idbatterim wrote: »

make it driver-less too!
Id really wonder if part of the problem with getting MN and DU built, is because it will allow and cause large growth in the region, allow far more homes to be built etc. thus giving dublin and the greater dublin area far more influence.

Dublin's influence is already massive and that's never going to change.

McAlban · 12-07-2017 11:26am

Zebra3 wrote: »

Ireland being benchmarked against similarly developed countries?

Denmark, please benchmark it against Denmark.

Yes, Although Denmark is very Copenhagen Centred. I've been there a lot and the PT, and Cycling infrasturcture is excellent.

Idbatterim wrote: »

make it driver-less too!
Id really wonder if part of the problem with getting MN and DU built, is because it will allow and cause large growth in the region, allow far more homes to be built etc. thus giving dublin and the greater dublin area far more influence.

+1 on the Driver-less, Works Perfectly in Copenhagen.

A lot of the development around MN is already planned, The Metro Economic Corridor in Swords for example. But FCC are not developing land too quickly, the 2017-2023 Development plan has a lot of sensible zoning.

lisasimpson · 12-07-2017 11:34am

True dublins influence will never change as is the case for most capital cities more of a case of helping to takethe pressure of dublin

Would be happy to see metro north and M20 be the main projects. The rest of the capital spending into health and housing. If half of the plans for cork city esp the docklands came to pass it would do wonders for the city and south.

The M20 will be massive to munster. Have friends working for a large multi national in limerick and the distances some people are commuting to work are crazy. Plus its an extremely dangerous road that links the two cities at present. Hopefully it wouldnt encounter all the objections and delays the Cork to Ringaskiddy propossed road is taking

BonnieSituation · 12-07-2017 11:37am

Zebra3 wrote: »

Ireland being benchmarked against similarly developed countries?

Denmark, please benchmark it against Denmark.

YUP!

THIS!

Idbatterim · 12-07-2017 11:40am

Dublin's influence is already massive and that's never going to change.

Oh I agree. But massive projects like MN and DU will boost this again big time and I think that politically is one of the reasons these vital projects are stalled as much as they have been...

Dublin airport parking, taxi drivers, rural politicians, there are a lot of vested interests that want to see it stalled as long as possible...

McAlban · 12-07-2017 11:44am

lisasimpson wrote: »

The M20 will be massive to munster. Have friends working for a large multi national in limerick and the distances some people are commuting to work are crazy. Plus its an extremely dangerous road that links the two cities at present. Hopefully it wouldnt encounter all the objections and delays the Cork to Ringaskiddy propossed road is taking

Also a huge amount of Air Freight going into Shannon which is being trucked from Shannon to Apple, Dell-EMC, Pfizer, Pepsi etc. etc. etc.

Idbatterim · 12-07-2017 11:45am

Dublin today only makes up 44% of urban Ireland. It is changing. Dublin will always have a massive influence but things are changing in Ireland.

it would be a lot more than 44% if reasonable densities are implemented and the likes of MN and DU go ahead... There is a big break being put on growth here. I think ronan lyons the other day claimed there were 125,000 apartments that would be occupied now if they existed...

LeinsterDub · 12-07-2017 11:46am

lisasimpson wrote: »

The rest of the capital spending into health and housing.

How much capital spending does health actually need? National Maternity Hospital and ?

BonnieSituation · 12-07-2017 12:00pm

Deedsie wrote: »

Children's hospital.

But that's being built. Do we need another one?

bk · 12-07-2017 12:03pm

Government announces €1.5 billion extra for capital spending from 2019 to 2021:

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0712/889566-governments-summer-economic-statement-published-today/

It is viewed as significant that big projects such as Metro North, the Cork to Limerick motorway and a motorway for the northwest region were mentioned frequently during the Taoiseach's recent leadership campaign.

I love this bit, MN and the M20 keep getting mentioned in articles and the press constantly over the last few months. There is a real pressure on now to get both of these done IMO.

lisasimpson · 12-07-2017 12:09pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

How much capital spending does health actually need? National Maternity Hospital and ?

Cork Uni hospital stretched too. Only one A&E after hours now think the mercy only takes emergencies up to a certain time each day now

thomasj · 12-07-2017 1:04pm

BonnieSituation wrote:

But that's being built. Do we need another one?

It's in the wrong location .

Why is everything about city centre , should be near the M50

LeinsterDub · 12-07-2017 1:13pm

thomasj wrote: »

It's in the wrong location .

Why is everything about city centre , should be near the M50

Not much in the way of PT out on the auld M50

thomasj · 12-07-2017 1:26pm

LeinsterDub wrote:

Not much in the way of PT out on the auld M50

That's the other problem that needs to be sorted.

Idbatterim · 12-07-2017 1:34pm

I wonder about the logistics of making one of the lanes on the m50 a bus lane during peak hours?

BonnieSituation · 12-07-2017 2:12pm

thomasj wrote: »

It's in the wrong location .

Why is everything about city centre , should be near the M50

It 100% should have been built at Connolly Memorial. But better James' than the Mater.

LeinsterDub · 12-07-2017 2:21pm

thomasj wrote: »

That's the other problem that needs to be sorted.

I'd rather they just build it now at James than wait 30+ years for it .

Bray Head · 12-07-2017 2:22pm

Here's what the 2017 Summer Economic Statement says about capital:

[font=open_sansregular, sans-serif]• Increase capital investment by an additional €500 million in each of the years 2019-2021 to further develop our economic and social infrastructure so that we can better meet the needs of our people as our economy, and society, grows. This increase, which will enhance the competitiveness and resilience of the Irish economy, will result in gross voted capital of nearly €7.8 billion in 2021. This will be 85% higher than the outturn of €4.2 billion in 2016.[/font]

I did a quick wordsearch and the words 'Metro North' or 'M20' cannot be found in the body text.

That detail will obviously have to wait until autumn.

Idbatterim · 12-07-2017 2:28pm

Bray Head wrote: »

Here's what the 2017 Summer Economic Statement says about capital:

I did a quick wordsearch and the words 'Metro North' or 'M20' cannot be found in the body text.

That detail will obviously have to wait until autumn.

500m will be put aside for a rainy day fund. Joan burton said she didn't see the point, either do I really, ASSUMING it was used for infrastructure instead, to sort out our big infrastructure deficit...

water infrastructure is still shocking, needs new roads, services for residential construction also etc etc etc...

whereas if they doled out an extra 500,000 a year on welfare getting even a fiver of it back would cause uproar, the capital budget can be decimated (as we saw at the start of the recessions) with no political fall out...

BonnieSituation · 12-07-2017 2:30pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I'd rather they just build it now at James than wait 30+ years for it .

They are though

Bray Head · 12-07-2017 2:39pm

I looked at table 4 in the SES.

Between 2016 and 2021:
-gross voted capital expenditure is set to rise by 85%
-gross voted current expenditure is set to rise by 11%

It is a clear re-prioritisation in the direction of capital.

Dardania · 12-07-2017 5:18pm

well needed, and frankly a bit more sustainable, rather than upping public sector pay excessively (which needs to be paid every year)

lucernarian · 12-07-2017 7:17pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

500m will be put aside for a rainy day fund. Joan burton said she didn't see the point, either do I really, ASSUMING it was used for infrastructure instead, to sort out our big infrastructure deficit...

water infrastructure is still shocking, needs new roads, services for residential construction also etc etc etc...

whereas if they doled out an extra 500,000 a year on welfare getting even a fiver of it back would cause uproar, the capital budget can be decimated (as we saw at the start of the recessions) with no political fall out...

And yet Fianna Fail want the 1 billion added to the rainy day fund as planned. If the money is not spent on needed infrastructure, it will make the "rainy day" worse tbh.

LeinsterDub · 12-07-2017 8:08pm

lucernarian wrote: »

And yet Fianna Fail want the 1 billion added to the rainy day fund as planned. If the money is not spent on needed infrastructure, it will make the "rainy day" worse tbh.

Well when they get back in power it will be handy when they run the economy into the ground again / handy to buy off the public sector

Zebra3 · 12-07-2017 8:23pm

Relax folks, sure aren't we bidding for the Olympics..... :rolleyes:

LeinsterDub · 12-07-2017 8:28pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Relax folks, sure aren't we bidding for the Olympics..... :rolleyes:

A government with an actual will to deliver infrastructure! This is bigger than the Olympics this is potentially the Irish equivalent of going to the moon.

Poxyshamrock · 12-07-2017 9:07pm

How long before we will see electrification of our intercity rail lines?

I'd love to see Dublin to Cork electrified.

BonnieSituation · 12-07-2017 9:30pm

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

How long before we will see electrification of our intercity rail lines?

I'd love to see Dublin to Cork electrified.

Why?

I mean it's hardly priority one.

LeinsterDub · 12-07-2017 9:33pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Why?

I mean it's hardly priority one.

Or priorities 2 to 99 either

MayoSalmon · 12-07-2017 9:52pm

McAlban wrote:

Also a huge amount of Air Freight going into Shannon which is being trucked from Shannon to Apple, Dell-EMC, Pfizer, Pepsi etc. etc. etc.

LeinsterDub wrote:

Or priorities 2 to 99 either

Well maybe not electrification should be bit high speed rail should be. 45/50 minute journey between Dublin and Cork would be amazing never going to happen though.

bk · 12-07-2017 10:02pm

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

How long before we will see electrification of our intercity rail lines?

I'd love to see Dublin to Cork electrified.

At least 30 years.

Our fleet of Diesel trains is relatively new, not even 20 years, not even half way through their life span yet, you wouldn't even consider it until they come near the end of their lifespan. They cost 500+ million after all!

I suspect it will never happen. In 20 to 30 years time when it comes time to replace the current trains, I suspect battery prices will have dropped enough to allow for full battery EV trains, thus eliminating the need for expensive electrification.

Alternatively maybe something like hybrid battery - biogas/hydrogen trains. Most of the benefits without the infrastructure costs.

bk · 12-07-2017 10:05pm

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Well maybe not electrification should be bit high speed rail should be. 45/50 minute journey between Dublin and Cork would be amazing never going to happen though.

Sure, no bother, that will be about 5 to 6 Billion. About 12 Billion for Cork to Belfast!

No kidding, that is the average cost of high speed rail per km!

Would it not be better for the government to just subsidise one of the airlines to operate between Cork and Dublin? 30 minute journey time and the subsidy use to be just 2.5 million a year, a drop in the ocean compared to high speed rail.

marno21 · 12-07-2017 10:27pm

bk wrote: »

Sure, no bother, that will be about 5 to 6 Billion. About 12 Billion for Cork to Belfast!

No kidding, that is the average cost of high speed rail per km!

Would it not be better for the government to just subsidise one of the airlines to operate between Cork and Dublin? 30 minute journey time and the subsidy use to be just 2.5 million a year, a drop in the ocean compared to high speed rail.

I agree, a Cork-Dublin flight is surely viable for connections alone given the amount of long haul destinations now accessible from Cork, and the continued decline of Shannon (see United today)

The money that could be spent on high speed Dublin-Cork rail could be much invested elsewhere. Better access to Kent station would be a great way to reduce net journey times.

CatInABox · 13-07-2017 7:31am

bk wrote: »

Alternatively maybe something like hybrid battery - biogas/hydrogen trains. Most of the benefits without the infrastructure costs.

Indeed, they were only talking about this as part of their push to electrify the Maynooth line.

It's in here, with a plan to buy their first electric/diesel hybrids by 2020. I'll believe it when I see it.

zetalambda · 13-07-2017 7:55am

bk wrote: »

I'm a Corkonian living in Dublin. The M20 is needed, but Metro North is far more important IMO.

The regional airports don't really need any more development, we already have far too many for such a small country! And they are already pretty well developed. Dublin Airport on the other hand badly needs the second runway, badly needs Metro North and needs to start thinking about a third terminal.

I suspect M20 will get the go ahead, but it will be the one project to say that areas outside of Dublin get development, while in fact the majority of investment will be heading to Dublin, as that is where it is really needed.

Metro North will likely be priority number one.

Metro North is just another vanity project like the port tunnel. Although the 747 gets you from the airport to the city center in 20 minutes so it has it's uses. Dart underground seems like it would benefit a lot more people than MN. People only want a metro because they think that's what all important cities have!

I doubt very much as well that the M20 being built will appease many people as most of rural Ireland already believes that Cork and Dublin get everything.

BonnieSituation · 13-07-2017 8:10am

zetalambda wrote: »

Metro North is just another vanity project like the port tunnel. Although the 747 gets you from the airport to the city center in 20 minutes so it has it's uses. Dart underground seems like it would benefit a lot more people than MN. People only want a metro because they think that's what all important cities have!

I doubt very much as well that the M20 being built will appease many people as most of rural Ireland already believes that Cork and Dublin get everything.

Have you ever gotten the 747?

It's like the magical mystery tour.

Metro North isn't a vanity project. But you're right, DU is more important and will serve more people.

PhilipsR · 13-07-2017 8:12am

zetalambda wrote: »

Metro North is just another vanity project like the port tunnel. Although the 747 gets you from the airport to the city center in 20 minutes so it has it's uses. Dart underground seems like it would benefit a lot more people than MN. People only want a metro because they think that's what all important cities have!

I doubt very much as well that the M20 being built will appease many people as most of rural Ireland already believes that Cork and Dublin get everything.

The MN is a vanity project?! Not only is it serving the airport it's serving Swords too which is a massive population area in the context of the WHOLE country, not even just Dublin. MN has been needed since the plans were first drawn up and has continued to be needed more and more year on year. DU is also badly needed. It's not one or the other here.

Government Capital Spending on Infrastructure

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