Government Capital Spending on Infrastructure

Bray Head

Here's what the 2017 Summer Economic Statement says about capital:

[font=open_sansregular, sans-serif]• Increase capital investment by an additional €500 million in each of the years 2019-2021 to further develop our economic and social infrastructure so that we can better meet the needs of our people as our economy, and society, grows. This increase, which will enhance the competitiveness and resilience of the Irish economy, will result in gross voted capital of nearly €7.8 billion in 2021. This will be 85% higher than the outturn of €4.2 billion in 2016.[/font]

I did a quick wordsearch and the words 'Metro North' or 'M20' cannot be found in the body text.

That detail will obviously have to wait until autumn.

Idbatterim

Bray Head wrote: »

Here's what the 2017 Summer Economic Statement says about capital:


I did a quick wordsearch and the words 'Metro North' or 'M20' cannot be found in the body text.

That detail will obviously have to wait until autumn.

500m will be put aside for a rainy day fund. Joan burton said she didn't see the point, either do I really, ASSUMING it was used for infrastructure instead, to sort out our big infrastructure deficit...

water infrastructure is still shocking, needs new roads, services for residential construction also etc etc etc...

whereas if they doled out an extra 500,000 a year on welfare getting even a fiver of it back would cause uproar, the capital budget can be decimated (as we saw at the start of the recessions) with no political fall out...

BonnieSituation

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I'd rather they just build it now at James than wait 30+ years for it .

They are though

Bray Head

I looked at table 4 in the SES.

Between 2016 and 2021:
-gross voted capital expenditure is set to rise by 85%
-gross voted current expenditure is set to rise by 11%

It is a clear re-prioritisation in the direction of capital.

Dardania

well needed, and frankly a bit more sustainable, rather than upping public sector pay excessively (which needs to be paid every year)

lucernarian

Idbatterim wrote: »

500m will be put aside for a rainy day fund. Joan burton said she didn't see the point, either do I really, ASSUMING it was used for infrastructure instead, to sort out our big infrastructure deficit...

water infrastructure is still shocking, needs new roads, services for residential construction also etc etc etc...

whereas if they doled out an extra 500,000 a year on welfare getting even a fiver of it back would cause uproar, the capital budget can be decimated (as we saw at the start of the recessions) with no political fall out...

And yet Fianna Fail want the 1 billion added to the rainy day fund as planned. If the money is not spent on needed infrastructure, it will make the "rainy day" worse tbh.

LeinsterDub

lucernarian wrote: »

And yet Fianna Fail want the 1 billion added to the rainy day fund as planned. If the money is not spent on needed infrastructure, it will make the "rainy day" worse tbh.

Well when they get back in power it will be handy when they run the economy into the ground again / handy to buy off the public sector

Zebra3

Relax folks, sure aren't we bidding for the Olympics..... :rolleyes:

LeinsterDub

Zebra3 wrote: »

Relax folks, sure aren't we bidding for the Olympics..... :rolleyes:

A government with an actual will to deliver infrastructure! This is bigger than the Olympics this is potentially the Irish equivalent of going to the moon.

Poxyshamrock

How long before we will see electrification of our intercity rail lines?

I'd love to see Dublin to Cork electrified.

BonnieSituation

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

How long before we will see electrification of our intercity rail lines?

I'd love to see Dublin to Cork electrified.

Why?

I mean it's hardly priority one.

LeinsterDub

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Why?

I mean it's hardly priority one.

Or priorities 2 to 99 either

MayoSalmon

McAlban wrote:

Also a huge amount of Air Freight going into Shannon which is being trucked from Shannon to Apple, Dell-EMC, Pfizer, Pepsi etc. etc. etc.

LeinsterDub wrote:

Or priorities 2 to 99 either

Well maybe not electrification should be bit high speed rail should be. 45/50 minute journey between Dublin and Cork would be amazing never going to happen though.

bk

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

How long before we will see electrification of our intercity rail lines?

I'd love to see Dublin to Cork electrified.

At least 30 years.

Our fleet of Diesel trains is relatively new, not even 20 years, not even half way through their life span yet, you wouldn't even consider it until they come near the end of their lifespan. They cost 500+ million after all!

I suspect it will never happen. In 20 to 30 years time when it comes time to replace the current trains, I suspect battery prices will have dropped enough to allow for full battery EV trains, thus eliminating the need for expensive electrification.

Alternatively maybe something like hybrid battery - biogas/hydrogen trains. Most of the benefits without the infrastructure costs.

bk

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Well maybe not electrification should be bit high speed rail should be. 45/50 minute journey between Dublin and Cork would be amazing never going to happen though.

Sure, no bother, that will be about 5 to 6 Billion. About 12 Billion for Cork to Belfast!

No kidding, that is the average cost of high speed rail per km!

Would it not be better for the government to just subsidise one of the airlines to operate between Cork and Dublin? 30 minute journey time and the subsidy use to be just 2.5 million a year, a drop in the ocean compared to high speed rail.

marno21

bk wrote: »

Sure, no bother, that will be about 5 to 6 Billion. About 12 Billion for Cork to Belfast!

No kidding, that is the average cost of high speed rail per km!

Would it not be better for the government to just subsidise one of the airlines to operate between Cork and Dublin? 30 minute journey time and the subsidy use to be just 2.5 million a year, a drop in the ocean compared to high speed rail.

I agree, a Cork-Dublin flight is surely viable for connections alone given the amount of long haul destinations now accessible from Cork, and the continued decline of Shannon (see United today)

The money that could be spent on high speed Dublin-Cork rail could be much invested elsewhere. Better access to Kent station would be a great way to reduce net journey times.

CatInABox

bk wrote: »

Alternatively maybe something like hybrid battery - biogas/hydrogen trains. Most of the benefits without the infrastructure costs.

Indeed, they were only talking about this as part of their push to electrify the Maynooth line.

It's in here, with a plan to buy their first electric/diesel hybrids by 2020. I'll believe it when I see it.

zetalambda

bk wrote: »

I'm a Corkonian living in Dublin. The M20 is needed, but Metro North is far more important IMO.

The regional airports don't really need any more development, we already have far too many for such a small country! And they are already pretty well developed. Dublin Airport on the other hand badly needs the second runway, badly needs Metro North and needs to start thinking about a third terminal.

I suspect M20 will get the go ahead, but it will be the one project to say that areas outside of Dublin get development, while in fact the majority of investment will be heading to Dublin, as that is where it is really needed.

Metro North will likely be priority number one.

Metro North is just another vanity project like the port tunnel. Although the 747 gets you from the airport to the city center in 20 minutes so it has it's uses. Dart underground seems like it would benefit a lot more people than MN. People only want a metro because they think that's what all important cities have!

I doubt very much as well that the M20 being built will appease many people as most of rural Ireland already believes that Cork and Dublin get everything.

BonnieSituation

zetalambda wrote: »

Metro North is just another vanity project like the port tunnel. Although the 747 gets you from the airport to the city center in 20 minutes so it has it's uses. Dart underground seems like it would benefit a lot more people than MN. People only want a metro because they think that's what all important cities have!

I doubt very much as well that the M20 being built will appease many people as most of rural Ireland already believes that Cork and Dublin get everything.

Have you ever gotten the 747?

It's like the magical mystery tour.

Metro North isn't a vanity project. But you're right, DU is more important and will serve more people.

PhilipsR

zetalambda wrote: »

Metro North is just another vanity project like the port tunnel. Although the 747 gets you from the airport to the city center in 20 minutes so it has it's uses. Dart underground seems like it would benefit a lot more people than MN. People only want a metro because they think that's what all important cities have!

I doubt very much as well that the M20 being built will appease many people as most of rural Ireland already believes that Cork and Dublin get everything.

The MN is a vanity project?! Not only is it serving the airport it's serving Swords too which is a massive population area in the context of the WHOLE country, not even just Dublin. MN has been needed since the plans were first drawn up and has continued to be needed more and more year on year. DU is also badly needed. It's not one or the other here.

zetalambda

PhilipsR wrote: »

The MN is a vanity project?! Not only is it serving the airport it's serving Swords too which is a massive population area in the context of the WHOLE country, not even just Dublin. MN has been needed since the plans were first drawn up and has continued to be needed more and more year on year. DU is also badly needed. It's not one or the other here.

Swords has the same population as Dundalk. It's just a big town that not many people outside of Dublin will ever have heard of. Common sense will tell you DU should be first. More benefit to more people. I never mentioned anything about it being one or the other. Maybe you're getting me mixed up with another poster? It not my choice!

MayoSalmon

zetalambda wrote: »

Metro North is just another vanity project like the port tunnel. Although the 747 gets you from the airport to the city center in 20 minutes so it has it's uses. Dart underground seems like it would benefit a lot more people than MN. People only want a metro because they think that's what all important cities have!

I doubt very much as well that the M20 being built will appease many people as most of rural Ireland already believes that Cork and Dublin get everything.

The airport needs a rail connection (express preferably)...and yes the consensus is that every other important city in the world has this infrastructure in place...but hey lets continue to be the outlier as we are with many other things.

BonnieSituation

zetalambda wrote: »

Swords has the same population as Dundalk. It's just a big town that not many people outside of Dublin will ever have heard of.Common sense will tell you DU should be first. More benefit to more people. I never mentioned anything about it being one or the other. Maybe you're getting me mixed up with another poster? It not my choice!

Yeah, not many non-Dubs use Dublin airport...

thomasj

zetalambda wrote:

Swords has the same population as Dundalk. It's just a big town that not many people outside of Dublin will ever have heard of. Common sense will tell you DU should be first. More benefit to more people. I never mentioned anything about it being one or the other. Maybe you're getting me mixed up with another poster? It not my choice!

And I would agree with you that if the airport wasn't conveniently slap bang next to it I would be suggesting that a luas line would be suitable.

But it is and with the fact that the airport is seeing increased numbers, there's a major commercial hub planned beside the airport and 65k is larger than a lot of towns in Ireland , it needs to be done.

It's ridicilous that for the city has come to a crippling halt for this and then come to a crippling halt for DU. Transport project managers and government financers don't put enough thought into these things.

Both projects need to be completed side by side. It's getting ridicilous the time that the city is getting disrupted by these things ask shipowners in the city

BonnieSituation

thomasj wrote: »

And I would agree with you that if the airport wasn't conveniently slap bang next to it I would be suggesting that a luas line would be suitable.

But it is and with the fact that the airport is seeing increased numbers, there's a major commercial hub planned beside the airport and 65k is larger than a lot of towns in Ireland , it needs to be done.

It's ridicilous that for the city has come to a crippling halt for this and then come to a crippling halt for DU. Our planners don't put enough thought into these things.

That's completely untrue. We have some great planners hamstrung by political ineptitude. And Dept of Finance penny pinching.

Both projects need to be completed side by side. It's getting ridicilous the time that the city is getting disrupted by these things ask shipowners in the city

Business' intransigence and objections are exactly why nothing gets done the way it should. Store owners in Dublin city are the people who will benefit from these infrastructural improvements. And yet...

thomasj

BonnieSituation wrote:

That's completely untrue. We have some great planners hamstrung by political ineptitude. And Dept of Finance penny pinching.

Actually apologies meant to say transport managers and government financers corrected it now

zetalambda

BonnieSituation wrote: »

That's completely untrue. We have some great planners hamstrung by political ineptitude. And Dept of Finance penny pinching.

I think the problem is more planners. Look at the farce over at Tara street just to name one.

thomasj

BonnieSituation wrote:

Business' intransigence and objections are exactly why nothing gets done the way it should. Store owners in Dublin city are the people who will benefit from these infrastructural improvements. And yet...

But ask yourself why they object?

The city is a building site over and over again. The disruption is never ending . Look at O'Connell Street! Is this the 3rd time the place has been dug up and a mess.

LeinsterDub

thomasj wrote: »

But ask yourself why they object?

The city is a building site over and over again. The disruption is never ending . Look at O'Connell Street! Is this the 3rd time the place has been dug up and a mess.

Would they rather no short term disruption and basically a perpetual traffic jam?

thomasj

LeinsterDub wrote:

Would they rather no short term disruption and basically a perpetual traffic jam?

I'm sure they would have rathered the luas cross-city works were done from the start as would folks that are inconvenienced by the disruption.