Pulled over for something I didn't do

Strawberry1984 · 29-06-2017 3:56pm #1

Hi there
I'm posting here to get some feedback and advice on what to do in my situation
Last Friday evening I was driving on a main road, slowed down, stopped and went to turn right. Looked before I turned, saw a black Passat car well in the distance so I turned right. A few mins later after I'd pulled into a business there, a Garda on a bike pulled up beside me and told me to park the car.
While he was getting off the bike I'd no idea what he was going to say to me. All different thoughts when through my head - light broken, speeding without realising it, tax out of date. But I knew they were all ok, just racking my brains!
The first thing he said to me was, "you've no idea why I've stopped you". I was looking at him blankly. He said the same thing and also "you didn't see me back there did you?" To which I replied no and was still baffled. He asked for my licence and checked reg, insurance and tax. And then went on to say that I pulled straight across in front of him on the main road when I was turning right.
I couldn't believe it to be honest. And I said "I'm sorry but I really didn't see you". Being a trusting person of the guards I assumed he wasn't lying to me and told him that if he saw me he saw me but I've no idea what he's talking about. I've never been stopped by guards before and I've never had any dealings with them. I didn't really know what to say.
Anyway he kept repeating how I didn't see him. He told me I seemed like a very nice person but what I did was unbelievable. He gave me 3 penalty points and €80 fine for not driving with due care.
I wouldn't be any good arguing with a guard as I've said so I just accepted what he was saying as true. And left quite baffled. I looked ahead before turning, didn't see anything only the Passat in the distance. And I've absolutely no idea where he came from and never will. I can't understand how he could think I would turn in front of a Garda bike!

Later on and since then I've told family members and they are as baffled as me. And have told me I should go to court and state my case. But it's his word against mine. But I'll never be able to understand what happened back there. Unless I'm really losing my mind!

Would it be worth going to court? All advice and opinions appreciated.

Thanks

smaoifs · 29-06-2017 4:02pm

I've no legal advice but if you were in the car park a few minutes, could it have been another similar car that turned in front of him?

Tell me how · 29-06-2017 4:02pm

Strawberry1984 wrote: »

Would it be worth going to court?

No. Definitely not worth going to court.

I suspect that you saw the Passat in the background and subconsciously fixated on that and missed the bike in the foreground.

hullaballoo · 29-06-2017 4:04pm

Just because you didn't see him doesn't mean he wasn't there. It's unfortunately a very common occurrence that bikers aren't spotted by right-turning cars due to a number of factors but mostly because of their profile.

Tbh, and I'm no huge fan of traffic cops, I believe the Garda in your story.

cml387 · 29-06-2017 4:05pm

Tell me how wrote: »

No. Definitely not worth going to court.

I suspect that you saw the Passat in the background and subconsciously fixated on that and missed the bike in the foreground.

Was it a motor bike or a pushbike?

If you'd said you saw him and thought you had pulled across safely then maybe there could be some doubt. But you've admitted you didn't see him at all so I tend to believe the garda..

Peregrinus · 29-06-2017 4:05pm

You're confirming what he said. You didn't see him.

This doesn't mean he wasn't there. It's not uncommon for motorists simply not to see a motorcycle or a bicycle when there's a car behind it, even some distance behind it. The car is what they expect to see; the car has an altogether bigger profile and is usually better lit and moving faster; the car is what registers.

You can go to court if you like, but from what you say his evidence is likely to be accepted. He has no reason to make the whole thing up, and he has no animus against you personally. If another car had turned after you and it was that other car which cut across him, he would have to have overtaken that car to catch up with you and stop you; that's not a very likely sequence of events.

Assuming that both of you are being honest, the plausible explanation is the one he has already suggested to you; you didn't see him.

MarkR · 29-06-2017 4:05pm

So you don't think he was there, because you didn't see him? Happens a lot with cyclists, people automatically look for cars, and the brain overlooks the bike. I don't think the garda had any reason to lie, so we'll have to assume you did cut him off.

Riskymove · 29-06-2017 4:09pm

MarkR wrote: »

Happens a lot with cyclists, people automatically look for cars, and the brain overlooks the bike.

I'm thinking it was a Garda motorbike

degsie · 29-06-2017 4:09pm

Pity you didn't have a dashcam

tayto lover · 29-06-2017 4:10pm

You just didn't see him obviously.
At least you didn't knock him off the bike or even worse.
You were probably focused on the approaching car and didn't see the bike.

Strawberry1984 · 29-06-2017 4:15pm

Thanks for the perspective. Hard to see it clearly when I'm in the middle!
It was a motorbike.
I was in no rush and the road was wide open, it's the n20. The Passat had come around the bend further back, someone suggested to me that he may have been behind that vehicle and went to overtake while I was turning. Hard to know.
I suppose I have to suck it up and accept the punishment and take that bit longer in future cause I doubt myself at the moment driving. I've a lot of experience but this has been an eye opener, have been a tad paranoid driving since then!

drunkmonkey · 29-06-2017 4:17pm

I don't think i'd go to court but I would call the Garda up or drop into the station and see can you square something with him.
I get you might not have seen him but if he was that close to hitting you might have noticed him slowing down or trying to avoid you.

I know motorists don't see bikes of petrol or push a lot of times but they do see them when it's nearly too late, so not seeing him at all is strange unless he was well over the speed limit.

MarkR · 29-06-2017 4:19pm

Unlikely that a garda motorbike would be overtaking coming up to an intersection?

drunkmonkey · 29-06-2017 4:21pm

Sounds more like a turn in rather than something marked.

Strawberry1984 · 29-06-2017 4:21pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I don't think i'd go to court but I would call the Garda up or drop into the station and see can you square something with him.
I get you might not have seen him but if he was that close to hitting you might have noticed him slowing down or trying to avoid you.

I know motorists don't see bikes of petrol or push a lot of times but they do see them when it's nearly too late, so not seeing him at all is strange unless he was well over the speed limit.

It's so strange. My son was in the passenger seat of the car, he's 10 and he didn't see anything either. Everything seemed very normal and we were chatting and next thing he was beside me. Maybe he was in the hard shoulder turning left. Thanks for reply

Thanks for the reply

Strawberry1984 · 29-06-2017 4:24pm

Thanks for the replies everyone. I don't know how well I'd do in court anyway so I'll probably just accept it. Just wanted some perspective.

I'm honestly just so baffled that he was so close when I turned.

Thanks again anyway ðŸ‘

degsie · 29-06-2017 4:26pm

CCTV or dashcam only way to prove/disprove this situation.

drunkmonkey · 29-06-2017 4:27pm

degsie wrote: »

CCTV or dashcam only way to prove/disprove this situation.

Would a witness not be good enough?

Cordell · 29-06-2017 4:29pm

It happen to me as well, I haven't seen a cyclist and almost ran him over. Brown pants, shaky legs kind of moment. To this day I can't say if I really missed him or he was in the blind spot created by the front pillar.

degsie · 29-06-2017 4:29pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Would a witness not be good enough?

Doubt a 10yo would be considered a reliable witness.

drunkmonkey · 29-06-2017 4:37pm

degsie wrote: »

Doubt a 10yo would be considered a reliable witness.

Not an issue if he's willing http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/witnesses/witnesses_under_17_years.html

Strawberry1984 · 29-06-2017 4:42pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Not an issue if he's willing http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/witnesses/witnesses_under_17_years.html

My son didn't notice any bike in the distance. When I asked him afterwards he said he had no idea. And didn't see the Garda coming close to his side of the car. I wouldn't ask him to testify anyway though cause I wouldn't put him through it.

Peregrinus · 29-06-2017 4:44pm

At 10 years old he's a competent witness (provided the judge is satisfied that he understands the significance of an oath, and the importance of telling the truth, which presumably he does). But I doubt that he'd be a particularly persuasive witness. He'd have had no particular reason to be keeping a lookout. Plus, being in the position of having to back up his parent against a guard would put any 10-year old in a quandary, and I don't think a judge would attach too much weight to what he might say in that context. Plus, the ordeal would be huge for him, and I doubt any parent would want to put their child through it even if that were guaranteed to avoid an 80 euro find and three penalty points, which for the reasons just given it isn't.

I'd put this one down to experience. Nobody got hurt, and we've learned the lesson that it's not enough to register the car that's approaching; you also have to separately register that the roadside between that car and you is empty.

xabi · 29-06-2017 4:46pm

Strawberry1984 wrote: »

My son didn't notice any bike in the distance. When I asked him afterwards he said he had no idea. And didn't see the Garda coming close to his side of the car. I wouldn't ask him to testify anyway though cause I wouldn't put him through it.

So this means the Garda is lying, I seriously doubt they would. Your son obviously didn't seem him, id pay and move on.

Strawberry1984 · 29-06-2017 4:54pm

xabi wrote: »

So this means the Garda is lying, I seriously doubt they would. Your son obviously didn't seem him, id pay and move on.

No it's not that. Just can't understand how I stopped and then cut a Garda out. When I spoke to him I 100% trusted what the Garda said and didn't argue with him. Now in hindsight I have no recollection, was not rushing, I thought that perhaps he had been speeding , came from behind the Passat and was upon me without me realising it.

Strawberry1984 · 29-06-2017 4:56pm

Strawberry1984 wrote: »

No it's not that. Just can't understand how I stopped and then cut a Garda out *

*off

Bushmanpm · 29-06-2017 4:56pm

An old biker acronym: SMIDSY
Sorry Mate, I Didn't See You
I've had it said a few times to myself but it doesn't stop me being scared sh!tless that their car nearly ploughed into me.
I drive as well so I know what to look out for but it shows just how transparent motorcycles can be.
You and your son were chatting as you made the turn and it only takes that little bit less of the drivers concentration for a collision to happen.

degsie · 29-06-2017 4:58pm

In fairness, the OP titled the thread "Pulled over for something I didn't do", so you are in effect calling the garda a liar.

Mr. Incognito · 29-06-2017 5:00pm

Cars have large blind spots that don't appear in mirrors.

You always need to look over your shoulders when turning.

I suspect you did not and relied on your mirrors.

I was very nearly in an accident once which scared the life out of me and that habit has now become ingrained

GM228 · 29-06-2017 5:03pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

At 10 years old he's a competent witness (provided the judge is satisfied that he understands the significance of an oath, and the importance of telling the truth, which presumably he does).

A child (under 14) does not need to understand the importance of an oath as they do not take an oath.

All that is required is that the judge is satisfied "that he is capable of giving an intelligible account of events which are relevant to those proceedings".

AlanG · 29-06-2017 5:07pm

Strawberry1984 wrote: »

Hi there
A few mins later after I'd pulled into a business there, a Garda on a bike pulled up beside me and told me to park the car.

Seems amazing that it took a motorbike cop a few minutes to catch up to you if he was that close. This part seems very suspicious. Generally you would have expected him to have the lights on you in 30 seconds or so.

Still more than likely you will have to suck it up as there is very payback for the risk you take going to court - unless you are close to 12 points.

degsie · 29-06-2017 5:09pm

Strawberry1984 wrote: »

I was in no rush and the road was wide open, it's the n20. The Passat had come around the bend further back, someone suggested to me that he may have been behind that vehicle and went to overtake while I was turning. Hard to know.

For clarity, both the Passat and the bike were behind you (on the same side as you) when you indicated and positioned yourself for turning right?

If so the garda tried to overtake a car which was turning right? Am I missing something?

Strawberry1984 · 29-06-2017 5:09pm

degsie wrote: »

In fairness, the OP titled the thread "Pulled over for something I didn't do", so you are in effect calling the garda a liar.

Sorry I did quote it as that and yes you're right. That's not quite what I meant though. I started with a title like that because I was convinced that it wasn't the way he described it.

I stopped, did not see him at all, obviously wouldn't have turned if I did. Can't understand how I could have lapsed in concentration so much. It was a shock.

If anyone was pulled over by guards for something they have no recollection at all of doing it, their response would be to question it after the initial shock of being told it.

Peregrinus · 29-06-2017 5:10pm

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Cars have large blind spots that don't appear in mirrors.

You always need to look over your shoulders when turning.

I suspect you did not and relied on your mirrors.

I was very nearly in an accident once which scared the life out of me and that habit has now become ingrained

In this case the allegation is that the guard was in front of the OP, who cut across the guard when making a right turn. Mirrors don't come into it.

Strawberry1984 · 29-06-2017 5:11pm

degsie wrote: »

For clarity, both the Passat and the bike were behind you (on the same side as you) when you indicated and positioned yourself for turning right?

If so the garda tried to overtake a car which was turning right? Am I missing something?

No the Passat was coming towards me. I had to cross the road to turn into the side road. That where he said I turned in front of him.

Peregrinus · 29-06-2017 5:13pm

AlanG wrote: »

Seems amazing that it took a motorbike cop a few minutes to catch up to you if he was that close. This part seems very suspicious. Generally you would have expected him to have the lights on you in 30 seconds or so.

They'll sometimes follow for a while, observing to see if your driving is erratic or consistently careless, before stopping you. Or they'll simply defer stopping you until there's a safe and convenient place to do so.

29-06-2017 6:41pm

Strawberry1984 wrote: »

No the Passat was coming towards me. I had to cross the road to turn into the side road. That where he said I turned in front of him.

Now I get it. Yes it's quite possible- as someone said earlier, focusing on the black car in the distance, not focusing on the bike in foreground, maybe bright day, bright bike, talking away to your son.
even the way the guard approached you it's likely he knew well you were oblivious to the event as indeed you were.

It's lesson learned but great you all got to go home safely that day

LionelNashe · 29-06-2017 7:36pm

I was in a taxi that turned right and hit a cyclist one time. Turning from Gardiner Street into Mountjoy Square South, in Dublin. The driver's words to the cyclist were "I didn't see a bit of you." The driver wasn't young, so he must have been very experienced.

Was a passenger another time with a work colleague beside the square in Tallaght and he turned right across the path of an oncoming tram, when it was in plain sight (not hidden by a bend or anything). It just hadn't registered as a threat with the driver, or with me in the passenger seat. I was looking right at the tram, and maybe a small part of me was thinking "We're going to crash", but mostly it just didn't register, because the Luas was new at the time and it didn't fit the mental model of what to look out for when turning.

My dad turned left in France (driving on the right for the first time) and got hit by an oncoming car that was in plain sight.

I think it's when experienced drivers are on mental auto-pilot, and something unexpected or different comes along, that the auto-pilot causes a problem. New drivers have an advantage in this respect, in that they don't yet have an auto-pilot, and everything they do is a conscious decision.

Imallrightjack · 29-06-2017 9:12pm

just curious but if the op did take it to court could this thread be used in court?(one of the posters said hes calling the guard a liar by the name of the thread)
im only asking thats all.

I love Sean nos · 29-06-2017 9:30pm

hullaballoo wrote: »

It's unfortunately a very common occurrence that bikers aren't spotted by right-turning cars due to a number of factors but mostly because of their profile.

Or left-turning cars, joining the road in front of you. Happened to me several times today alone. Bright red bike, headlight on full time because it's automatically on, wearing a high-vis vest and an orange helmet.

As soon as I see a car looking to join the road or a petrol station, I just roll off the throttle slightly in anticipation.

_Brian · 29-06-2017 9:46pm

Sometimes a mistake is just a genuine mistake, I believe OP didn't see the guard, but it doesn't mean the guard wasn't there and it doesn't mean he didn't commit a driving offence either.

I think going to court would be a mistake, your going to get down to your word against the guard with no other evidence other than your "belief" and that will stand for nothing.

Leave it be and move on.

I love Sean nos · 29-06-2017 9:55pm

Strawberry1984 wrote: »

I should go to court and state my case.

What would you say in court?

The Garda says that you didn't see him.

You'll then respond that you didn't see him?

Your 10 year old son will also state that he didn't see him?

That's his case made.

By the way, is this what neither of you saw, in daylight?

listermint · 29-06-2017 10:06pm

I've found motorcycle guards to be highly trained and genuinely good and fair.

If he's said you crossed him then it's fair spot on you did. By its very nature being on a bike has your senses super heightened you have to be on the look out every inch of the road.

I doubt he confused you with someone else and I'd day you didn't spot him at all.

Pat Mustard · 29-06-2017 10:41pm

Strawberry1984 wrote: »

Would it be worth going to court? All advice and opinions appreciated.

Your evidence will be that you didn't see the Garda, which seems to fit in with the Garda's account that you didn't see him and cut across him. It seems that you just aren't sure whether the Garda was there or not. From what you say, the Garda was certain of his version of events.

I don't think that I would be kicking down the door of the courthouse to have my day in court in relation to this one.

However, it is strange that you never saw the Garda at any point during the manoeuvre.

You could consider approaching a solicitor to telephone the Garda as to his account of the events and whether that account fits with your experience.

Nothing might come of that but you will have done as much as you can to get the relevant information.

You could ring the Garda yourself but I think that if you do that, you may just get to hear the Garda repeating what he already told you.

SCOOP 64 · 29-06-2017 10:47pm

tayto lover wrote: »

You just didn't see him obviously.
At least you didn't knock him off the bike or even worse.
You were probably focused on the approaching car and didn't see the bike.

Yeah but at least he would know hes guilty if he did knock him off his bike.

Del2005 · 29-06-2017 10:55pm

I love Sean nos wrote: »

Or left-turning cars, joining the road in front of you. Happened to me several times today alone. Bright red bike, headlight on full time because it's automatically on, wearing a high-vis vest and an orange helmet.

As soon as I see a car looking to join the road or a petrol station, I just roll off the throttle slightly in anticipation.

Problem with that is some motorists see the lights change, when you roll off the throttle a bike changes stance, and think that they are being called out. But better to be already slowing down in case they don't see you regardless.

Syphonax · 29-06-2017 11:06pm

Sounds like an innocent situation enough he could have left you off. In situations as innocuous as what you're describing it doesnt warrant points, fines, court dates etc rather just a stiff warning.

LionelNashe · 29-06-2017 11:15pm

OP, if you really think there was some mistake on the part of the cop, you could go back to the same place and see if there is any CCTV around. Don't know how you'd get access to it though.

Gen.Zhukov · 29-06-2017 11:24pm

OP, it just happens. People don't always see bikes. I was in a Q behind a few other cars, all turning right. Courier on a heap of a 125 or 250 farting along at 30mph'ish going straight with full right of way and guy at top of right turning Q turns right, right on front of biker. Biker hits him but is ok. 9.30 in the morning. He just did not see him.

However, the points and the fine will not make you see a biker in a future situation. There was a ad campaign using the slogan 'Think bike' a few years ago which recognised this problem.

I've a full bike license and have ridden for years and even when in the car I've come close to pulling out on others bikers.

micks · 30-06-2017 12:01am

I'd a similar event with an garda last year

unmarked car followed me into my estate and pulled me over

same crack when i looked bemused at him - "you dont know why I stopped you"
i said no, he laughed and said ah come on, I politely said sorry i've no idea
he then said i was on the phone going around previous roundabout
I said no definitely not - showed him handsfree kit and said that i think i didnt have my phone but could get it in my house
he then backed down, apologised and said he must be mistaken
I may have been able to prove with phone records etc but if he had though he saw me driving carelessly like OP where would I have stood
It doesnt mean he was lying or dishonest or trying to do me he may just have made an error

OP one thing with hindsight is you should have got more details off him of what you did wrong - take the guess work out

Bri.A.M · 30-06-2017 10:47am

Exactly what I was thinking

Pulled over for something I didn't do

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