Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

Buer · 21-06-2017 09:50AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

If Warburton is left out of the starting lineup, will this be the first time in a long time that the tour captain doesn't start a test (injury aside) ?

First time ever, I'd be guessing.

WeleaseWoderick · 21-06-2017 09:51AM

Is the team being announced today?

Buer · 21-06-2017 09:55AM

aloooof wrote: »

I'll be interested to see who's selected for the back 3 come the 2nd and 3rd Tests, can't see it remaining as-is if they continue in their current vein.

I would expect a number of changes. The coaches get a snapshot of players and have to pick them on that basis. Put them in a test against NZ and it's a completely different environment.

In both 2013 and 2009 there were 5 changes to the starting test side between the first and second tests.

The back three is the obvious area where we'll see some changes. I'd also expect a change in the back row and, historically, hooker is a position that has seen a change between the tests given they're usually scapegoated for set piece issues. I think Keith Wood is the only hooker to survive between the first and second tests since 1989.

21-06-2017 09:55AM

WeleaseWoderick wrote: »

Is the team being announced today?

At 8pm Irish time apparently.

nc6000 · 21-06-2017 10:01AM

razorblunt wrote: »

On Daly, you'd swear he had an 11 out of 10 game the way Sky went on about him.

I love they way they keep going on about him taking kicks from his own 10 metre line in the warm-ups.

Not much use if he doesn't kick any during the games. I make it he's taken one kick during a game on this tour and missed it.

WeleaseWoderick · 21-06-2017 10:07AM

nc6000 wrote: »

I love they way they keep going on about him taking kicks from his own 10 metre line in the warm-ups.

Not much use if he doesn't kick any during the games. I make it he's taken one kick during a game on this tour and missed it.

There has been a general tone to the Sky commentary throughout the whole tour of playing favourites with certain players (mostly English).

To be fair, if RTE were showing the tour our commentators would be even more guilty of this!

21-06-2017 10:26AM

WeleaseWoderick wrote: »

There has been a general tone to the Sky commentary throughout the whole tour of playing favourites with certain players (mostly English).

To be fair, if RTE were showing the tour our commentators would be even more guilty of this!

If Farrell isn't in the starting 15 there will be a minor meltdown followed by fairly critical commentary of Sexton on Saturday morning.

CurryFlavoured · 21-06-2017 10:28AM

I actually like Daly and would've put him forward as a potential starter before the tour, but it is funny he's getting so much attention when Nowell, Williams and Payne in the backs clearly outplayed him.

Although Williams is a bit of an idiot, I think he's probably one of the silkiest back players the Northern hemisphere has. Quick, agile, good step, passes and offloads very well, I'd like to see more of him.

wp_rathead · 21-06-2017 10:42AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If Farrell isn't in the starting 15 there will be a minor meltdown followed by fairly critical commentary of Sexton on Saturday morning.

Maybe in the studio, but Stuart Barnes is a massive Sexton admirer so don't expect that to be the case (if it was BT that would be a different story)

As an aside, has Murray and Farrell played together at all on tour? If they have must have been minimal time

Buer · 21-06-2017 10:48AM

wp_rathead wrote: »

Maybe in the studio, but Stuart Barnes is a massive Sexton admirer so don't expect that to be the case (if it was BT that would be a different story)

As an aside, has Murray and Farrell played together at all on tour? If they have must have been minimal time

Got 30 minutes together before Davies went off against the Crusaders. Looked good too.

I would say it's going to be the toss of a coin for who starts at 10 at this point. I previously thought that Gatland would favour Sexton but, when you think about it, there's going to be a lot of English management voices in that room and only one guy from the Irish set up....Farrell's dad!

Regardless of who starts, the man wearing 22 is going to have a significant involvement in the test series.

.ak · 21-06-2017 11:22AM

I would say Farrel is favourite to start because of the restrained/deep control he brings to the side. He's solid behind the pack. He's also probably a wee bit fitter and stronger at this stage of his career than Sexton.

However, a grade 1 tear in the quad is a 2 week job. He does any sort of flexion from a squat position and that leg will turn to jelly. I don't care how much ice and elevation was put on it.

radharc · 21-06-2017 11:32AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

If Warburton is left out of the starting lineup, will this be the first time in a long time that the tour captain doesn't start a test (injury aside) ?

But it's not injury aside. If Warburton is 100% fit he would start, no doubt.

Past30Now · 21-06-2017 11:32AM

Aside from the argument that Farrell is probably in slightly better form than Sexton, if they are going to include Farrell in the 23, then surely they should start him on the basis of the risk of him needing to be replaced. Bringing him on after 50/55 minutes and then losing him to a quad tear 10 minutes later would be a disaster.

aloooof · 21-06-2017 11:43AM

Buer wrote: »

I think Keith Wood is the only hooker to survive between the first and second tests since 1989.

That's an amazing stat.

CurryFlavoured wrote: »

I actually like Daly and would've put him forward as a potential starter before the tour, but it is funny he's getting so much attention when Nowell, Williams and Payne in the backs clearly outplayed him.

Although Williams is a bit of an idiot, I think he's probably one of the silkiest back players the Northern hemisphere has. Quick, agile, good step, passes and offloads very well, I'd like to see more of him.

I think part of the Daly attention is that he covers so many positions. He's potentially the ideal #23, if he was in better form. Doubly so if Gatland decided a 6-2 bench split was an option.

buck65 · 21-06-2017 11:51AM

Sexton Warburton North to start according to my sources, i.e myself.

aloooof · 21-06-2017 11:54AM

Also, on Sexton v Farrell, on the Eggchasers podcast they mentioned that apparently Player Welfare protocols in the players contracts mean they can only play 6 games on the tour, and Sexton already has been involved in 4.

There was a question mark over whether this meant involvement in 6 games or 6*80 minutes involvement in total. Given there isn't much being made of it, I'm assuming it's the latter. But it would be a massive oversight if it's the former.

I vaguely remember players getting subbed off early due to player welfare earlier in the season (Isa taking the kicks cos from the start of a game as Sexton was due to be subbed off at HT?), which may indicate it's down to minutes involved?

Buer · 21-06-2017 11:56AM

aloooof wrote: »

That's an amazing stat.

It's also wrong.

Tom Youngs survived in 2013. He was taken off early in the second test though and was dropped for the final test due to wanting more bulk in the scrum.

Exact same was the case in 2009 when Lee Mears was dropped for Rees who added more weight to the scrum.

In 2005, Shane Byrne was dropped after being scapegoated for the line out diaster. It only came to light in the years after that the coaches completely f*cked the forwards over insisting they change all the line out calls the week of the test.

2001 and 1997 was Keith Wood and, for those that recall the 1997 LWL documentary, even he was close to being dropped.

1993, Ken Milne started but they brought Brian Moore back into things after that. Moore started all the tests in 1989.

ScrubsfanChris · 21-06-2017 12:37PM

Buer wrote: »

In 2005, Shane Byrne was dropped after being scapegoated for the line out diaster. It only came to light in the years after that the coaches completely f*cked the forwards over insisting they change all the line out calls the week of the test.

Only read about that recently. Insane tin-foil hat stuff

D14Rugby · 21-06-2017 12:46PM

radharc wrote: »

But it's not injury aside. If Warburton is 100% fit he would start, no doubt.

Injury aside means other captains have been not selected but only because they were injured, not that they just weren't picked when available as would be the case if Warburton isn't picked.

irishbucsfan · 21-06-2017 12:49PM

D14Rugby wrote: »

Injury aside means other captains have been not selected but only because they were injured, not that they just weren't picked when available as would be the case if Warburton isn't picked.

I think radharc's point is that Warburton's injury was quite influential in the process. Its not the same as a Lions captain coming into the tour fit and not making the first test, although that is extremely unlikely to ever happen you'd have to think.

luckyboy · 21-06-2017 01:39PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think radharc's point is that Warburton's injury was quite influential in the process. Its not the same as a Lions captain coming into the tour fit and not making the first test, although that is extremely unlikely to ever happen you'd have to think.

IIRC, Sunday Times rugby correspondent Stephen Jones was doing his damnedest to have POC dropped on that basis in 2009!

.ak · 21-06-2017 04:25PM

radharc wrote: »

But it's not injury aside. If Warburton is 100% fit he would start, no doubt.

He's as fit as everyone else in the squad.

irishbucsfan · 21-06-2017 04:26PM

.ak wrote: »

He's as fit as everyone else in the squad.

Well apart from being injured at the start of the tour and missing training during the tour because of the injury, sure.

spock. · 21-06-2017 06:09PM

The match day 23 for the first Test of the DHL New Zealand Lions Series is (with Test caps in brackets):

1. Joe Moody (25)
2. Codie Taylor (16)
3. Owen Franks (91)
4. Brodie Retallick (61)
5. Samuel Whitelock (85)
6. Jerome Kaino (78)
7. Sam Cane (41)
8. Kieran Read (97) - Captain
9. Aaron Smith (59)
10. Beauden Barrett (50)
11. Rieko Ioane (2)
12. Sonny Bill Williams (34)
13. Ryan Crotty (26)
14. Israel Dagg (62)
15. Ben Smith (61)

16. Nathan Harris (5)
17. Wyatt Crockett (59)
18. Charlie Faumuina (47)
19. Scott Barrett (5)
20. Ardie Savea (13)
21. TJ Perenara (30)
22. Aaron Cruden (47) / Lima Sopoaga (7)
23. Anton Lienert-Brown (10)

Yeah_Right · 21-06-2017 06:25PM

No Julian Savea. That's interesting.

I thought Crotty was injured.

irishbucsfan · 21-06-2017 06:27PM

Savea was too scared to play. Mental battle has already been won by Gatland. Let's hope the ABs can at least keep it competitive in the first half

21-06-2017 06:53PM

Backline is awesome.

Pack, I think the Lions can match or even get on top of.

AbusesToilets · 21-06-2017 06:56PM

NMS not in favor anymore? Madness at the quality that NZ can disgard if a player isn't performing. Stark contrast to us and the rest of the NH.

CatFromHue · 21-06-2017 06:58PM

What's Codie Taylor like?

sydthebeat · 21-06-2017 07:09PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

NMS not in favor anymore? Madness at the quality that NZ can disgard if a player isn't performing. Stark contrast to us and the rest of the NH.

Only recently back from two long term injuries.
Missed virtually all of last year with a shoulder injury, and I think about 8 weeks of this year with broken toes.

I think he might have only played about 3 games since the end of 2015

Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

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