Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

laugh · 20-06-2017 06:35PM

leakyboots wrote: »

Making the other team tackle him, ususally with two players, time and time again over the 80. And he always gets over the gameline - only Billy Vunipola would have been more effective in this regard.

FYI it's the gain line, i.e. Getting beyond this line is a gain of ground.

Clegg · 20-06-2017 06:41PM

PoM getting the captaincy implies a different side than first envisaged. No Warburton or AWJ if that's the case.

Could see Kruis and Itoje in the 2nd row and a backrow of PoM, SoB and Faletau. Front row seems nailed on to be Vunipola, George and Furlong. That's a properly good pack if it pans out.

1eg0a3xv7b82of · 20-06-2017 07:00PM

1 to 10 looks set and if they perform the lions have a chance.
but the centres and back 3 have shown very little so far but maybe the weekend they will but teo and davies centre with halfpenny full back against new zealand on home soil will not work.

20-06-2017 07:18PM

Clegg wrote: »

PoM getting the captaincy implies a different side than first envisaged. No Warburton or AWJ if that's the case.

Could see Kruis and Itoje in the 2nd row and a backrow of PoM, SoB and Faletau. Front row seems nailed on to be Vunipola, George and Furlong. That's a properly good pack if it pans out.

It's a fantastic pack. Will be some bench too.

Ardillaun · 20-06-2017 07:35PM

I'd pick Daly over North.

Ardillaun · 20-06-2017 07:37PM

Clegg wrote: »

PoM getting the captaincy implies a different side than first envisaged. No Warburton or AWJ if that's the case.

Could see Kruis and Itoje in the 2nd row and a backrow of PoM, SoB and Faletau. Front row seems nailed on to be Vunipola, George and Furlong. That's a properly good pack if it pans out.

Furlong looks a lot happier with those lads behind and beside him. They've just got to get used to one new player.

irishbucsfan · 20-06-2017 07:48PM

Ardillaun wrote: »

I'd pick Daly over North.

Honestly not sure how either are test Lions. Both have been poor on this tour. Daly was poor today, I'm surprised he was the one that was pulled but that kicking option he provides I guess is a difference maker.

Nowell is unlucky but he left that performance too late. A shame himself or Williams couldn't stand out.

CatFromHue · 20-06-2017 07:58PM

So we're 4/6 and can be pissed that we lost the other 2 games as we were in a position to win both of em. Not too bad for a team some were say would lose every game.

It's bubbling up quite nicely for Saturday, I'm starting to think we might actually win :eek:

jm08 · 20-06-2017 09:39PM

This is what Jeremy Guscott has to say about POM:

Blind-side flanker Peter O'Mahony, who captained the Lions on Saturday, is one of those guys who can inspire the team by doing the basics very well.

The French call it a 'spirit', the Kiwis and Maoris call it 'Mana'. It's a will, a mental capacity, to make his body do things that the normal person would struggle to do.

He is naturally brave and players like O'Mahony do a lot of work that isn't Hollywood.

As a former bricklayer, I would call it a DPC - damp-proof course. It's unseen, but it is the foundations of which wonderful buildings can be built.

Peter is one those foundations on which a team grows and develops. Without those players a team won't be successful.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/40314209

.ak · 20-06-2017 09:52PM

Interesting reading through some of the pages regarding POM. I wouldn't be his biggest fan, as in I think there's a range of technically speaking better backrowers in Ireland, but at the same time I always have soft spot for him. He represents everything good about rugby; you don't have to be a natural athlete to be a brilliant player, you don't need a six pack to win medals, you don't need to be a giant to be the best man on the pitch. He's just such a hard worker, work ethic beats talent every time. But that's not to say he isn't skilled, he's known as a dog but he has the hands of an ourhalf.

He had a solid POMesque performance against Maori, a fine workhorse performance, but his performance against Crusaders? Performance of a life IMO. He was everywhere, he was working off the ground and getting back into the attack line and then transferring the ball better than the centres all in the same play. It was a magnificent performance, and he added something none of the other backrowers can. Think he cemented himself into the 23 that day.

With that in mind, what's the 23? What I think Gatland will pick;

15. Halfpenny
14. Watson
13. Davies
12. T'eo
11. North (should be Daly imo)
10. Sexton
09. Murray
08. Faletau
07. SOB
06. POM (c)
05. Kruise
04. Itoje
03. Furlong
02. George
01. Mako

16. Owens, 17. McGrath, 18. Sinclair, 19. AWJ, 20. Warburton, 21. Webb, 22. Farrell, 23. Daly/Williams.

The only thing I can say is North shouldn't be in the 23, he's been the worst back on tour to date imo. He's been awful. Pity Hogg didn't get a chance to impress.

AbusesToilets · 20-06-2017 10:00PM

I haven't seen anything from AWJ to put him in the 23. Gatland will pick him regardless, but for me, Henderson and Lawes have shown more.

irishbucsfan · 20-06-2017 10:01PM

I'm sounding like a broken record but North may have been the worst back on tour to date but Daly must be pushing him close after today. Just such simple foolish turnovers he conceded in that first half and he really didn't produce anything going forward until that break for the try. Seems he a cert for the 23 now though.

I personally wish Williams was the one they had blindly trusted instead of North. But then North is such a physical specimen that maybe he has it in him to turn around and produce a special performance under the spotlight... I'm just not convinced.

Big area of weakness. Watson is a good man for a try though at least, brilliant finisher.

20-06-2017 10:11PM

.ak wrote: »

Interesting reading through some of the pages regarding POM. I wouldn't be his biggest fan, as in I think there's a range of technically speaking better backrowers in Ireland, but at the same time I always have soft spot for him. He represents everything good about rugby; you don't have to be a natural athlete to be a brilliant player, you don't need a six pack to win medals, you don't need to be a giant to be the best man on the pitch. He's just such a hard worker, work ethic beats talent every time. But that's not to say he isn't skilled, he's known as a dog but he has the hands of an ourhalf.

He had a solid POMesque performance against Maori, a fine workhorse performance, but his performance against Crusaders? Performance of a life IMO. He was everywhere, he was working off the ground and getting back into the attack line and then transferring the ball better than the centres all in the same play. It was a magnificent performance, and he added something none of the other backrowers can. Think he cemented himself into the 23 that day.

With that in mind, what's the 23? What I think Gatland will pick;

15. Halfpenny
14. Watson
13. Davies
12. T'eo
11. North (should be Daly imo)
10. Sexton
09. Murray
08. Faletau
07. SOB
06. POM (c)
05. Kruise
04. Itoje
03. Furlong
02. George
01. Mako

16. Owens, 17. McGrath, 18. Sinclair, 19. AWJ, 20. Warburton, 21. Webb, 22. Farrell, 23. Daly/Williams.

The only thing I can say is North shouldn't be in the 23, he's been the worst back on tour to date imo. He's been awful. Pity Hogg didn't get a chance to impress.

I'd say that's the team but reckon Warbs will start 2nd and 3rd test warren'ted or not.

I'd have Payne at 13 and Henderson on the bench.

Christy42 · 20-06-2017 10:28PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I haven't seen anything from AWJ to put him in the 23. Gatland will pick him regardless, but for me, Henderson and Lawes have shown more.

It will give Gatland the shakes to not pick Warburton as it is. Can't put him through too much trauma.

pickarooney · 20-06-2017 10:37PM

I don't think any of the backs are close to the level of their AB counterparts. The lions will have to race out of the traps and drive them backwards to avoid a cutting-up.

razorblunt · 20-06-2017 11:31PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'm sounding like a broken record but North may have been the worst back on tour to date but Daly must be pushing him close after today. Just such simple foolish turnovers he conceded in that first half and he really didn't produce anything going forward until that break for the try. Seems he a cert for the 23 now though.

I personally wish Williams was the one they had blindly trusted instead of North. But then North is such a physical specimen that maybe he has it in him to turn around and produce a special performance under the spotlight... I'm just not convinced.

Big area of weakness. Watson is a good man for a try though at least, brilliant finisher.

On Daly, you'd swear he had an 11 out of 10 game the way Sky went on about him.

It's a shame his form dipped on the tour, I think he's had a great season in the wider scheme of things. But if it was between him and North, he'd get my pick hands down.

Clegg · 20-06-2017 11:44PM

I see Thornley has Farrell starting at 10.

Would.be harsh on Sexton I think. He's in very good form at the moment.

bilston · 20-06-2017 11:46PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I haven't seen anything from AWJ to put him in the 23. Gatland will pick him regardless, but for me, Henderson and Lawes have shown more.

AWJ getting very little game time today backs up the fact he will be in the 23, most likely benching. I agree, for impact I'd be looking at Henderson, or Lawes, but you know for all Sky went on about Lawes today there were some mistakes that they didn't really mention, maybe I'm biased...feck it I am...but I'd have Henderson on the bench.

I'm a big AWJ fan though so wouldn't be unhappy to see him involved

Richard Hillman · 20-06-2017 11:51PM

I really think Garland should have picked an extra back for this midweek game. Its not inconceivable that one of the backs that started today will be on the field after 10 minutes due to an injury. Then you've got a guy that played a full game midweek, and may be expected to play a near full test match on Saturday. It seems like they are 1 man short due to not replacing Hogg,

Unless he's gonna pick Seymour

bilston · 20-06-2017 11:59PM

I know Lions squads aren't about developing players for future tours...that would be insanely stupid as anything can happen in 4 years, they are an end in themselves, however it did occur to me that of the expected 1-10 for the 1st test (assuming Farrell over Sexton), every one one of them, bar maybe SOB, could be back in 2021 in SA.

Compare that to 2005 when Woodward picked loads of past it England WC winners. There is a real hunger in this squad to do the business. While it goes without saying that NZ at their best should win, I have a sneaky feeling this Lions squad might do something memorable. The way they have kicked on as the tour has continued has been impressive, they seem to have bonded well and their defence has been very impressive. The Crusaders have averaged 37 points a game in Super Rugby this season, they managed 3 against the Lions, the NZ Maori scored just 10 points despite the array of talent they have. The belief is growing within the squad. I just wished they had one or two real game breaking outside backs. The midfield is fairly uninspiring and the wingers seem like passengers.

bilston · 21-06-2017 12:01AM

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I really think Garland should have picked an extra back for this midweek game. Its not inconceivable that one of the backs that started today will be on the field after 10 minutes due to an injury. Then you've got a guy that played a full game midweek, and may be expected to play a near full test match on Saturday. It seems like they are 1 man short due to not replacing Hogg,

Unless he's gonna pick Seymour

It's a shame Nowell didn't play like that two weeks ago. Although you'd still worry about him defensively. The Lions wingers will have to play like Ireland's. Be strong aerially, positionally, kick well, and defend well and work as a cog in the wheel that is the team. Can George North do that? I don't know. Where's McFadden when you need him?

bamboozle · 21-06-2017 07:05AM

bilston wrote: »

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I haven't seen anything from AWJ to put him in the 23. Gatland will pick him regardless, but for me, Henderson and Lawes have shown more.

AWJ getting very little game time today backs up the fact he will be in the 23, most likely benching. I agree for impact I'd be looking at Henderson, or Lawes, but you know for all Sky went on about Lawes today there were some mistakes that they didn't really mention, maybe I'm biased...feck it I am...but I'd have Henderson on the bench.

I'm a big AWJ fan though so wouldn't be unhappy to see him involved

One thing that jumped out in yesterday's game was for Nowell's 2nd try he received a beautiful long pass from Henderson who showed great instinct to put the ball out wide, I still would expect AWJ to be on the bench.
Interestingly, Henshaw and Payne made 15 passes yesterday (3 turnovers), carried for 79 meters (18 & 61) with the back 3 outside them carrying for 203 meters.
Against the Maoris, Davies & Teo made 9 passes (o turnovers) & carried for 141, but the back 3 in that match carried for 93.
Now I know you can read lots of things from stats but there seemed a lot more fluidity yesterday in the backline with heads up rugby and good support lines being run. 11-15 against the Maoris were not functioning as a unit. North has been of the worst performing backs on tour (laidlaw & Seymor) but will start at 11, I hope he pulls out a big performance. My big fear with Teo is that his defensive niavity will be exploited on Saturday, irrespective of the SBW v Farrell physicality i'd still be going Sexton, Farrell, Payne/Davies but at best we may see Sexton/Farrell for the last 20.

Buer · 21-06-2017 08:16AM

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Unless he's gonna pick Seymour

Or Jonathan Joseph.

I think Daly is going to be at 23 (and being removed after 60 minutes almost confirms it). He certainly doesn't deserve it on a performance basis but it makes sense in terms of coverage. He can play 11,13, 14 and 15. Any injury to any of those positions and it's a straight swap into the team with the least disruption possible.

razorblunt · 21-06-2017 08:48AM

The amount of times I saw that screenshot of the bloody NZ Herald article denouncing the Lions further after yesterday's game. So many journos complaining about it, how about just ignore them and stop giving them the attention they're looking for!

Buer · 21-06-2017 08:52AM

With respect to those pesky Kiwis, it looks like Read will almost certainly feature this weekend. To be honest, I think that suits the Lions. He has 120 minutes of rugby in 7 months. I don't care who you are, you're not going to be up to pace for a full blooded test match with that amount of game time. I'd be much happier to see him in the team than Savea.

No real update available on Coles so I assume he's gone for the series. I think that's a big blow. His replacements are adequate players but they're not at that level whereas Coles is someone that others can turn to for a moment of inspiration or a big play that blows the game open.

Crotty's progress has been quiet so I'm going to presume SBW is the man in possession for at least the first game if not more.

Chris Rattue has been on his soapbox, kicking his countrymen while they're down. The coverage of the tour in NZ has been a tad schizophrenic with the Lions being lambasted for being one dimensional cannon fodder a couple of weeks ago. Now it's the turn of the NZ sides to feel the wrath of the media who are highly critical of them and suggest they're overrated.

I do actually understand where Rattue is coming from. I don't think NZ rugby is quite as good as we thought. I think they've been the beneficiaries of playing at a time when Australian and South African rugby is at an all time low. But the test team is still excellent. They're not as good as the 2011-2015 team (and maybe not even as good as the 2007 side) but they're still the clear best team in the world. Anything other than a 3-0 series win for them would be a failure in the eyes of their supporters, I'd imagine.

No matter what happens in the test series, Warren Gatland's muscular troops have already poked a big hole in a soft New Zealand rugby underbelly.

There is no doubting the quality of New Zealand rugby's top layer, both the players and Steve Hansen's coaching/selecting unit. But players both well known (think Damian McKenzie, Richie Mo'unga) and not so much (the Chiefs wannabes) have been unmasked as inept pretenders by the Big Red Tide.

The suspicion that New Zealand's prowess has been over-stated by the Australian and South African travails is being highlighted by a touring side which upped the tempo despite flying ring-ins to Hamilton.

21-06-2017 08:52AM

bilston wrote: »

It's a shame Nowell didn't play like that two weeks ago. Although you'd still worry about him defensively. The Lions wingers will have to play like Ireland's. Be strong aerially, positionally, kick well, and defend well and work as a cog in the wheel that is the team. Can George North do that? I don't know. Where's McFadden when you need him?

I'm certain it won't happen but I think I'd picked Nowell, he possibly put in the best performance for a winger so far against the Chiefs. He's a fine player, just didn't show it early on tour.

It's probably a fair comment from Rattue above. The Lions were really disappointing early on but it was a case of arriving midweek before the game, guys only joining the squad last minute, etc etc. It takes time to gel. The Crusaders, Maori and Chiefs performances have been impressive, three comfortable wins.

21-06-2017 08:52AM

I really love that all over the internet so many smart phones repeatedly auto corrected Gatland to Garland.

I think we should start calling him Judy.

Buer · 21-06-2017 08:56AM

razorblunt wrote: »

The amount of times I saw that screenshot of the bloody NZ Herald article denouncing the Lions further after yesterday's game. So many journos complaining about it, how about just ignore them and stop giving them the attention they're looking for!

What screenshot? I read the NZH this morning and it's highly complimentary of the Lions whilst absolutely lambasting the Chiefs.

Mr. Potatohead lookalike, Gregor Paul, did their match report and was all about praising the Lions.

The Lions have gone all Kiwi on us. The midweek side got into the swing of this pass and catch business in Hamilton and did it rather well.

They scored a few tries, looked like a proper rugby team for long periods.

The pity is we haven't seen more if on this tour, but still, to get some at least is a small blessing and so was the heart, commitment and control they showed.

For a side that had every reason to feel a little jettisoned, unloved and unmotivated, they put it all out there and showed there is ample pride in the jersey.

thomond2006 · 21-06-2017 09:28AM

If Warburton is left out of the starting lineup, will this be the first time in a long time that the tour captain doesn't start a test (injury aside) ?

aloooof · 21-06-2017 09:43AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Honestly not sure how either are test Lions. Both have been poor on this tour. Daly was poor today, I'm surprised he was the one that was pulled but that kicking option he provides I guess is a difference maker.

Nowell is unlucky but he left that performance too late. A shame himself or Williams couldn't stand out.

I'll be interested to see who's selected for the back 3 come the 2nd and 3rd Tests, can't see it remaining as-is if they continue in their current vein.

Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

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