Interesting article about Travellers by a Traveller

Wibbs · 20-06-2017 10:32PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Indeed and who is doing the most to try and alleviate this? Not the Travellers.

Why is this happening? Why is Clodagh, the author of this article (I don't know her surname) an outlier?

*holds penny, in the vain hope it drops*

In Ireland, we still seem to be scratching our heads. It is implicit throughout this thread there there is something malicious at the heart of the traveller community, there is an intolerance of their way of life. They have to change, they have to get themselves better, and when they're the same as us, then we'll do our bit. .

So you're OK with their "culture" of child marriage, resistance to education, majority unemployment in receipt of social welfare provided by the "settled" community and anti social behaviour all the way up to criminality? But it's somehow "our" fault as a society?

Permabear wrote: »

It's happening because of the "special traveler culture" that the so-called progressives want to protect.

This effort to blame settled society is silly. The "settled" people are not making 92% of traveler children drop out of school before the Leaving Cert. Nobody is making them marry while still in their teens, or engage in criminality and anti-social behavior at far higher rates than the general population.

Speaking as someone who lives in the South of the US, I find your parallels with African Americans to be ridiculous. Travelers were never kept as slaves. They never experienced systemic discrimination and segregation via Jim Crow laws and the like. They didn't have to deal with the KKK and crosses burning at their halting sites.

On the contrary, the Irish state has bent over backwards for decades to extend every possible opportunity and advantage to travelers -- social welfare, free education, free housing, and numerous other benefits, all paid for by the "settled people" who are derided as the problem.. In response, we get continuing refusal to participate in civil society, and insistence on continued law-breaking and anti-social or self-destructive behavior.

It's very clear why the problem is ongoing. It is the fault of travelers and their "special culture."

This. So much this.

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you think parallels can be drawn between the discrimination, bigotry and intolerance that is faced by African Americans, Indigenous Australians and the most discriminated against ethnic group in Europe?

No. Or only by a woefully and wilfully ignorant reading of history and sociology. Or by drinking the "right on" cultural equivalence Kool-Aid.

Deleted User wrote: »

Again, what did this 4 year old girl do to deserve that treatment. What behaviour by her resulted in her being so thoroughly disliked as a child?

None. It was the behaviour of the group she is associated with. Wrongheaded, hell yes, prejudiced, oh yes, but understandable.

You might point to the EU studies that referred to, say, the Polish in Ireland as the most discriminated against group in Europe. That's pretty damning,don't you think? Not sure the "they deserve it, it's their fault" argument was compellingly advanced by the Irish Government, it must have failed. As did our defence of our record in providing accomodation, again condemned, this time by the Council of Europe.

Travellers get social welfare(nearly 90% of them), access to free education, which the majority reject, free medical, free housing if they want it, free legal aid, free... the list goes on. And that's seen by some Brussels ivory tower numpty as the height of "discrimination"? I think that muppet needs to reacquaint him or herself with the definition of that word.

end of the road · 20-06-2017 10:39PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

no . i'm afraid the world doesn't work like that. whatever someone else does does not justify discrimination against others. so members of a family being trouble makers does not justify the treatment a child received, and the responsibility for implementing the blowback is fully with the person instigating the blowback. so in this case, the lady who turned the child away is fully responsible for that, not that child's family.

20-06-2017 11:03PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Travellers get social welfare(nearly 90% of them), access to free education, which the majority reject, free medical, free housing if they want it, free legal aid, free... the list goes on. And that's seen by some Brussels ivory tower numpty as the height of "discrimination"? I think that muppet needs to reacquaint him or herself with the definition of that word.

Numpties and muppets...I'm reminded of a poster on another thread who, when asked about the findings of the EU, the Council of Europe etc. said something along the lines of "what would you expect from the Germans, they started WWII"!

Wibbs · 20-06-2017 11:10PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Numpties and muppets...I'm reminded of a poster on another thread who, when asked about the findings of the EU, the Council of Europe etc. said something along the lines of "what would you expect from the Germans, they started WWII"!

Wow, you really have problems coming up with reasonable comparisons in lieu of argument, don't you? Work away, call me a nazi if you will. Get it out there early. Saves having an actual debate and you will doubtless feel vindicated. Or god forbid you might address the pacoderms in the internal space and work with them.

Awaits observing Satan skating to work in the morning...

Permabear · 20-06-2017 11:11PM

This post has been deleted.

20-06-2017 11:12PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Wow, you really have problems coming up with reasonable comparisons in lieu of argument

you literally called people numpties and muppets. the cringe is hard on this one.

20-06-2017 11:13PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Wow, you really have problems coming up with reasonable comparisons in lieu of argument, don't you? Work away, call me a nazi if you will. Get it out there early. Saves having an actual debate and you will doubtless feel vindicated. Or god forbid you might address the pacoderms in the internal space and work with them.

Awaits observing Satan skating to work in the morning...

For a poster who can lash out the memes of a woman saying "oh yeah" to address points made by others and makes glib comments like "holds penny, waits for it to drop", you're a bit sensitive to mild rebuke!

Anyway, you made me smile again, to add to that when I read your "EU numpties and muppets in their ivory towers" line.

Wibbs · 20-06-2017 11:17PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

you literally called people numpties and muppets. the cringe is hard on this one.

And... Your point? I know that such terms may be seen as a "in", a way to chatter "aha, gotcha, [insert "its" here], again in lieu of a reasonable argument, but so far all I'm reading from you and yours is along the lines of Traveller = victim/Society = fault. And comparison daftness at the atomic powered level.

Wibbs · 20-06-2017 11:22PM

Deleted User wrote: »

For a poster who can lash out the memes of a woman saying "oh yeah" to address points made by others and makes glib comments like "holds penny, waits for it to drop", you're a bit sensitive to mild rebuke!

Anyway, you made me smile again, to add to that when I read your "EU numpties and muppets in their ivory towers" line.

If one is ever to be found struggling in the hunt for a general definition of "projection" QV this post. Or a breakdown of the debate tactic of "you smell too". Works well for both.

Still not debating the points I and others have made. Lucifer gets out the thermals in anticipation.

Donald Trump · 20-06-2017 11:25PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Donald Trump wrote: »

Hi Mr./Ms. Eevs98.
You appear to be familiar with this lady. As others explained, her article implied she was 18+4=22 . No matter, we will assume she is 18.

I think I found her on twitter. Self described "Sinn Fein activist" living in Belfast with an apparent active interest in UK politics. Fair play to her and all. Genuine question....do many people from Belfast sit the Junior and Leaving Certificate? Fairly prolific tweeter too - 14.8k since Sept 2015
There are normally a handful of 12As each year in the JC results. And I think that all get their names in the paper.....it should be relatively easy to find an article or interview with her from 2-3 years ago when she sat it. Just for verification purposes of course, and to find out some more about this interesting young lady.

In fairness, between your 1. "she's now in Belfast so she could not have done the Junior Cert" and 2. "everyone who gets 12 As in the Junior Cert gets in the newspaper", your sleuthing services might be in short supply.

Think about these flaws, 1. she may have moved and 2. only if they want to have the results publicised.

With all due respect your logic is flawed. I never said she couldn't have done junior cert. The other poster who appears to know her clarified she does not live in Belfast despite that being her stated twitter location.

As for the other point, what is the harm in asking? I am sure that if an article existed the person who knows her might have been able to point us more towards it to find out more. If it did not exist, it does not prove anything. But if it did exist it would help validate the story and potentially learn more. I did not say that if it does not exist then any or all of it is lies.

I would be interested though to know where she went to school. It must have been a good school if it did not feel to need to capitalize on a 12As student. Even if she did not want to be named. Not to mention the fact that they had a debate team and also appears to have had some kind of official swimming team/program. Maybe those are normal things in deprived areas. I didn't go to a fancy school, just a normal school and we didn't have those things. But maybe the deprived schools do

Basically you got ahead of yourself in a righteous indignant manner and extrapolated incorrectly from my points/questions.

I'd say to leave her alone and let her finish her exams. Fair play to her for heading off to Cambridge. It is a very good institution although probably avoided by a lot of "republicans". She might (wrongly and unfairly) get a bit of stick from that from her comrades but I'm sure she can deal with it given everything else she has gone through.

When she is there she might however want to cut down on the re-tweeting if the likes of the below

https://twitter.com/seanmcdonald01/status/876758413287575552

or this

https://twitter.com/clxddxgh/status/875838184550260736

The Bishop Basher · 20-06-2017 11:28PM

end of the road wrote: »

yes, i said the revenue investigate travelers. you can't dispute that fact, because it can't be disputed as it stands to reason that travelers will face investigation into their activities if they are in breach of tax rules.

They're less likely to face investigation as how do you investigate someone if you have no address for them.

Also how do you calculate earnings and tax liabilities on the proceeds of criminal activity ? It's not like they're filling out tax returns..

Travellers in my experience are absolute masters at playing and milking the system and do so with total impunity..

20-06-2017 11:31PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

I'd say to leave her alone and let her finish her exams. Fair play to her for heading off to Cambridge. It is a very good institution although probably avoided by a lot of "republicans".

What makes you think Republicans avoid Cambridge? It even has an Irish society that host pop-up Gaeltacht nights, according to a friend.

Sounds like you're contributing handsomely to the massive pit of assumptions being dumped in this thread.

20-06-2017 11:35PM

Wibbs wrote: »

If one is ever to be found struggling in the hunt for a general definition of "projection" QV this post. Or a breakdown of the debate tactic of "you smell too". Works well for both.

Still not debating the points I and others have made. Lucifer gets out the thermals in anticipation.

What's with the Satan and Lucifer references?

Is dismissing the findings of those called on to consider submissions and make decisions, not by any analysis of their findings or commentary, but by labelling them numpties and muppets...debate?

McCrack · 20-06-2017 11:37PM

Only this morning I met a grandmother who is a traveller and she came into my office with her grandson.

The child was three years of age and he had no shoes on and his feet dirty. He was also quite sunburnt.

Those things by itself are wrong.

The point im making is unfortunately traveller children from a very early age are disadvantaged through ignorance and/or neglect and these things are very difficult to shake off as the child gets older.

Yourself isit · 20-06-2017 11:37PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So are you saying discrimination does not exist because travellers were not kept as slaves? Aborigines were not traditionally kept as slaves like African Americans and did not face burning crosses. Does this mean that they too were fine?

Incidentally, you might not be aware in the South of the USA, but the freebies you suggest were handed out to travellers were actually handed out to huge swathes of the Irish population. Entitlements like like social welfare come from being a citizen, it is no special treatment at all.

Again, the absolute refusal to draw parallels between discrimination here and elsewhere is really based on the obvious, awkward issues it raises. We can at least all agree that the EU described travellers as the most discriminated against ethnic group in Europe, can we? Well maybe that alone means that they can and should be compared with groups in other continents, and debate not stifled on the basis that they didn't face burning crosses.

We can agree that the EU claimed that that's true, not that it is true.

In fact most if us don't see travellers as a seperate racial or ethic group - it's the anti racists who want state racial classifications. Go figure

Personally I consider it a blood libel to compare a Irish ethnic group which has had no laws passed it a la jim crow, nor has been enslaved, nor has had its indigenous land taken, nor has been described as sub human by courts, nor sterilised with either the US or Australia. Where some or all of this has happened to natives or blacks.

Travellers don't of course do well in education. It's typical of official ireland to blame "we as a society" but (assuming no fault on behalf of the travellers) we all could be responsible there only if we all ran the education system. We don't. Or if we passed laws discriminating against travellers. We don't. There is no law on seperate but equal. Quite the opposite.

Yet I have heard a teachers trade union decry the anti-traveller racism in education ireland. The solution was to pay teachers more: I have a radical solution, pay teachers less until the education system they run is less racist.

I suspect that teachers may then admit the culture of travellers is part of the problem.

Donald Trump · 20-06-2017 11:41PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

What makes you think Republicans avoid Cambridge? It even has an Irish society that host pop-up Gaeltacht nights, according to a friend.

Sounds like you're contributing handsomely to the massive pit of assumptions being dumped in this thread.

Ah here. Will you go away outta that.

All the crap you do get from Nordies et. al. about Trinity or even UCD being West Brit etc. And you think that there isn't a perception that wannabe "republicans" would not like one of their own going to that perceived bastion, and nursery, of British upper class imperialism?

Sure Baron Gerry and company wouldn't even sit in the parliament. Even if they were going to hold the sway of power post recent general election, they weren't going to use it.

There a lot of people like the below.

AnGaelach · 20-06-2017 11:47PM

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

I loved it taught it was great, articulate & moving.

Of course, it's our fault that most of them are crooked fúckers.:rolleyes:

Red F Warrior · 20-06-2017 11:49PM

You give me a down to earth traveller family and I'll welcome them with open arms but the travellers round where I live steal left right and centre and I was even punched square in the face by one when I was walking home from school a few years back. Completely unprovoked. What about these travellers?

20-06-2017 11:50PM

McCrack wrote: »

The point im making is unfortunately traveller children from a very early age are disadvantaged through ignorance and/or neglect and these things are very difficult to shake off as the child gets older.

This is what I find so incongruous about criticism of traveller parents on this thread. Cries of 'where is the personal responsibility, don't they know they are destroying the child?' abound, yet nobody seems to take the next logical step, and admit that No, life is not all about conscious, personal choices; our childhoods do tend to affect our behaviours as adults, and this makes it problematic when we start to heap 100% of the blame on travellers themselves.

It almost reminds me of the pro-life crowd, who are shrill with worry for the dignity of the unborn, but lose all interest in child welfare once the child is born. In this case, certain people fret & fume about the damage done to traveller children, but once the child is an adult, will rant & rave when that young traveller person doesn't behave like they grew up in middle class suburbia.

Donald Trump wrote: »

Ah here. Will you go away outta that.

All the crap you do get from Nordies et. al. about Trinity or even UCD being West Brit etc. And you think that there isn't a perception that wannabe "republicans" would not like one of their own going to that bastion, and nursery, of British upper class imperialism?

You're either writing to us from the nineteenth century, or else you're under some bizarre illusion that republicanism is about detesting Britishness, insofar as Britishness could somehow be epitomized by studying at the University of Cambridge (?)

In any case, you're going off on a tangent, a very obtuse and fairly preposterous tangent.

byhookorbycrook · 20-06-2017 11:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Did you read the OP?

Would you send your child to school if their experience was of being ostracised by other children, bullied and having teachers refuse to teach them?

Why would teachers refuse to teach any child?

Permabear · 21-06-2017 12:00AM

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MentalMario · 21-06-2017 12:00AM

Eevs98 wrote: »

If anyone of ye were to talk to the girl yerselves, or even make any effort to research things past personal anecdotes which mean sweet fa anyway, then ye'd see she frequently addresses the things yer bringing up about culture, education and group mentality. It's not really victim culture when they are often victims is it? A small preportion of them (admittedly a larger proportion than the settled population, but still a small majority of the total community nonetheless), are criminals, and the rest of them are completely written off because of it. Ye can talk about all those things they need to change within their own communities, but how can they change them if they have to spend all their time dealing with **** they get from us?

If only a small proportion of them are criminals, how do the rest put food on the table?

You'd rarely, if ever, see a traveller working in what we'd consider a normal job.

Permabear · 21-06-2017 12:03AM

This post has been deleted.

21-06-2017 12:06AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

This is what I find so incongruous about criticism of traveller parents on this thread. Cries of 'where is the personal responsibility, don't they know they are destroying the child?' abound, yet nobody seems to take the next logical step, and admit that No, life is not all about conscious, personal choices; our childhoods do tend to affect our behaviours as adults, and this makes it problematic when we start to heap 100% of the blame on travellers themselves.

It almost reminds me of the pro-life crowd, who are shrill with worry for the dignity of the unborn, but lose all interest in child welfare once the child is born. In this case, certain people fret & fume about the damage done to traveller children, but once the child is an adult, will rant & rave when that young traveller person doesn't behave like they grew up in middle class suburbia.

You're either writing to us from the nineteenth century, or else you're under some bizarre illusion that republicanism is about detesting Britishness, insofar as Britishness could somehow be epitomized by studying at the University of Cambridge (?)

In any case, you're going off on a tangent, a very obtuse and fairly preposterous tangent.

So what's the answer? Education? Good luck. Take the kids from them? That would be an attack on their culture. (Though the number of Traveller kids in foster care is interesting. As would the number fostered by very close family on the same site be if they were available.)

21-06-2017 12:08AM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I don't follow feuds in the traveller community as much as you evidently do, so I can't comment on the last point.

But I can't understand how you can accept the ruinous effects of weak educational attainment, discrimination and so on; yet still heap "100%" of the blame upon those who are the product of such a destructive childhood?

How does that work?

You have accepted the existence of inter-generational trauma within the African American community, yet, like most head-scratching Irish people, claim ignorance and confusion when it comes to social problems within the traveller community?

The credibility siren is ringing in my ear again.

21-06-2017 12:12AM

Deleted User wrote: »

So what's the answer? Education? Good luck. Take the kids from them? That would be an attack on their culture.

On the latter point, not necessarily. Travellers will have to be coerced into education, even if it means removing children from them. And settled people who break the law by inciting hatred towards the travelling community, or by discriminating against them, should have to face legal sanction. This should be enforced with utmost rigour.

A 'third way' should also be engineered, in terms of scholarship scheme and support funding for young travellers. I know some colleges already have this in place. The Royal College of Surgeons has enrolled a number of traveller students on its medical degree, with support funding which keeps the student in college, and it seems to be working very well.

Permabear · 21-06-2017 12:14AM

This post has been deleted.

Wibbs · 21-06-2017 12:15AM

Deleted User wrote: »

What's with the Satan and Lucifer references?

Don't get the "When Hell freezes over" reference? Do try to keep up. Let's recap; you're right, me and the rest with questions are racists/nazis/whatever and it's all society's fault and travellers are blameless. Just so we're on the same page.

sabat · 21-06-2017 12:16AM

What I want to know is why a lot of traveller boys have weird croaky little voices.

21-06-2017 12:17AM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

For a self-professed libertarian, it strikes me that every one of your "solutions" are prosecutorial/ statist in nature.

Whatever happened to incentives?

Interesting article about Travellers by a Traveller

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