Interesting article about Travellers by a Traveller

Eevs98 · 20-06-2017 08:11AM

If anyone of ye were to talk to the girl yerselves, or even make any effort to research things past personal anecdotes which mean sweet fa anyway, then ye'd see she frequently addresses the things yer bringing up about culture, education and group mentality. It's not really victim culture when they are often victims is it? A small preportion of them (admittedly a larger proportion than the settled population, but still a small majority of the total community nonetheless), are criminals, and the rest of them are completely written off because of it. Ye can talk about all those things they need to change within their own communities, but how can they change them if they have to spend all their time dealing with **** they get from us?

A Battered Mars Bar · 20-06-2017 08:13AM

Eevs98 wrote: »

If anyone of ye were to talk to the girl yerselves, or even make any effort to research things past personal anecdotes which mean sweet fa anyway, then ye'd see she frequently addresses the things yer bringing up about culture, education and group mentality. It's not really victim culture when they are often victims is it? A small preportion of them (admittedly a larger proportion than the settled population, but still a small majority of the total community nonetheless), are criminals, and the rest of them are completely written off because of it. Ye can talk about all those things they need to change within their own communities, but how can they change them if they have to spend all their time dealing with **** they get from us?

Ye ye ye ye ye ye let's start with you

Eevs98 · 20-06-2017 08:14AM

Tell me how wrote: »

From where they said "I was 4 years old" and then,
"a problem that 18 years later I still haven't managed to escape"

Yeah means 18 years in total because that's how old she is

MyStubbleItches · 20-06-2017 08:14AM

Eevs98 wrote: »

I followed the girl on twitter for a while, she's 18, predicted 615 points in the leaving cert, and she has an offer to study at Cambridge University in the UK. I'd say that's fairly indicative of someone who's taken responsibility for themselves. I don't know where ye got 22 from to be honest.

She might have taken responsibility for herself but refuses to take responsibility for her culture. Also, how will she be funded in Cambridge if she goes there?

Eevs98 · 20-06-2017 08:15AM

A Battered Mars Bar wrote: »

Ye ye ye ye ye ye let's start with you

Congratulations on forming a really coherent reply. You've convinced me with that one, I bow to your superior intellect

Eevs98 · 20-06-2017 08:17AM

MyStubbleItches wrote: »

She might have taken responsibility for herself but refuses to take responsibility for her culture. Also, how will she be funded in Cambridge if she goes there?

She does take responsibility to for her culture, if you see my other reply then I explain that. In the U.K. every student is given full tuition loans for the three years, and Cambridge offer huge grants and bursaries because they're a very rich school. She also works, but I couldn't tell you how much she has saved from that because that's not exactly information she throws around online

20-06-2017 08:17AM

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

That is absolute nonsense. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and accept she's an animal lover but to suggest that animal abuse isn't part of 'traveller culture' is either a blatant lie or her idea of abuse is different to mine. There's a halting site next to the river here and it's heartbreaking to see the horses dumped in various areas tied to trees with no room to moved, malnourished and dying of thirst. Last year a friend posted a picture of one these horses that had died of starvation in an attempt to get people to phone the council and get something down. This isn't a one off incident either. There are loads of them dying around there.

It's the same as how their religion is important, they don't do drugs, would never hit a woman, never have sex outside marriage etc.

judeboy101 · 20-06-2017 08:20AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Different curriculum, perhaps. Pretty sure I sat 10.

12 does happen

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/i-never-thought-i-would-get-12-as-six-students-celebrate-top-marks-as-junior-cert-results-are-revealed-35048736.html

Fair enough, so she beats the large odds of travellers not doing the jc, coupled with the 1 in 10,000 odds of getting 12 A's despite her school looking down on her, appears in no media reports about beating such astronomical odds.well done to her.

20-06-2017 08:20AM

MyStubbleItches wrote: »

She might have taken responsibility for herself but refuses to take responsibility for her culture.

How can a teenager "take responsibility for her culture"? You might as well ask any Irish teenager to take responsibility for alcoholism in Irish society.

Also, how will she be funded in Cambridge if she goes there?

Presumably, the same way I and everyone else who attended a public university: a mixture of family support and exchequer support, through general taxation.

Nobody pays their own way through university, except for a small number of non-EU students.

MyStubbleItches · 20-06-2017 08:21AM

Eevs98 wrote: »

She does take responsibility to for her culture, if you see my other reply then I explain that. In the U.K. every student is given full tuition loans for the three years, and Cambridge offer huge grants and bursaries because they're a very rich school. She also works, but I couldn't tell you how much she has saved from that because that's not exactly information she throws around online

But she claims that there isn't a culture of animal abuse.

VinLieger · 20-06-2017 08:22AM

From the article wrote:

Our life expectancy is 61 years old. Our suicide rate is seven times higher than the general population. 50% of travellers die before their 39th birthday. 10% of traveller children die before the age of two, compared to just 1% of the general population. 70% of us die before our 59th birthday.Only 3% of us live passed the age of 65. Less than 13% of us finish secondary school compared to 93% of the general population. Less than 1% of us go on to third level education, and more than 70% of traveller children live in families where the mother has no formal education at all.

All of the above stats are consequences of choices made by the traveling community and have nothing to do with any forms of discrimination

Eevs98 · 20-06-2017 08:24AM

MyStubbleItches wrote: »

But she claims that there isn't a culture of animal abuse.

No, she says that animal abuse isn't part of the culture, there's a difference. She says that travellers who do abuse animals and who use culture as an excuse are using it as a copout so they don't have to take responsibility, because culture would mean that it was part of their history and it's not it a relatively new thing.

Samaris · 20-06-2017 08:27AM

MyStubbleItches wrote: »

She might have taken responsibility for herself but refuses to take responsibility for her culture. Also, how will she be funded in Cambridge if she goes there?

May well be a scholarship if her results come out that high.

Fair play to her. I hope she goes to the UK, does her degree surrounded by people who only have a very vague idea of what a Traveller is and don't care. She's worked her ass off and taken responsibility for herself with a lot against her. I hope she can be an inspiration for her younger brothers too.

And she doesn't have to take responsibility for the whole culture, particularly not the dodgy parts of it that she appears to have nothing to do with. She's 18/22. Either. She's giving her experiences. She owes you nothing. Do you take responsibility for the Magdalene Laundries? Do you take responsibility for white nationalism? Do you take responsibility for what the IRA did? Do you take responsibility for the scandals around the Catholic Church? Do you take responsibility for that the Hutch/Kinahan feud is still going on? Do you take responsibility for the scobe that smashed up my partner's car in Cork? Do you take responsibility for the brats who set fire to a car up against a set of residential flats a couple of years ago in Cork? Do you take responsibility for the pair of gits that flung rocks through the window of a Galway mosque? Why should you?

She had no choice where she was born. Others had choices to dismiss her based on it. How dare she not just curl up and accept that she deserves all she got because members of her "community" are assholes rather than taking the hardest way out that requires the most character and determination.

I have a lot of issues regarding Traveller culture and what it does to individuals within their systems that want to get out or want to keep parts of their culture but reject the dangerous elements, the misogyny, the poor healthcare, the poor and broken education. I also have a great deal of issue with condemning individuals (especially children who really cannot do anything about it!) based on their nationality, the culture they were born into, the religion they were born into, their skin colour, their language or their fcuking hairstyle.

MyStubbleItches · 20-06-2017 08:30AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

How can a teenager "take responsibility for her culture"? You might as well ask any Irish teenager to take responsibility for alcoholism in Irish society.

Presumably, the same way I and everyone else who attended a public university: a mixture of family support and exchequer support, through general taxation.

Nobody pays their own way through university, except for a small number of non-EU students.

By claiming that there is no culture of animal abuse within her community she is refusing to take responsibility.

As for funding college, fine if she gets grants and tuition fees, etc. but family support? I'll accept that not all travellers are living the high life off the proceeds of crime but it's undeniable by anyone with an ounce of experience with them that a lot of them supplement their incomes through dodgy means. The ones who claim that they're not involved in crime are quite possibly still living off the proceeds of it while claiming to be innocent victims.

lawred2 · 20-06-2017 08:33AM

Eevs98 wrote: »

If anyone of ye were to talk to the girl yerselves, or even make any effort to research things past personal anecdotes which mean sweet fa anyway, then ye'd see she frequently addresses the things yer bringing up about culture, education and group mentality. It's not really victim culture when they are often victims is it? A small preportion of them (admittedly a larger proportion than the settled population, but still a small majority of the total community nonetheless), are criminals, and the rest of them are completely written off because of it. Ye can talk about all those things they need to change within their own communities, but how can they change them if they have to spend all their time dealing with **** they get from us?

Actually when most people have personal anecdotes it gets harder and harder to dismiss them as meaningless.

20-06-2017 08:33AM

Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »

Almost everyone associates travellers with violence and criminality.

No one should "associate" a 4 year old child with anything of the sort. It's hardly their fault.

MyStubbleItches · 20-06-2017 08:39AM

Samaris wrote: »

May well be a scholarship if her results come out that high.

Fair play to her. I hope she goes to the UK, does her degree surrounded by people who only have a very vague idea of what a Traveller is and don't care. She's worked her ass off and taken responsibility for herself with a lot against her. I hope she can be an inspiration for her younger brothers too.

And she doesn't have to take responsibility for the whole culture, particularly not the dodgy parts of it that she appears to have nothing to do with. She's 18/22. Either. She's giving her experiences. She owes you nothing. Do you take responsibility for the Magdalene Laundries? Do you take responsibility for white nationalism? Do you take responsibility for what the IRA did? Do you take responsibility for the scandals around the Catholic Church? Do you take responsibility for that the Hutch/Kinahan feud is still going on? Do you take responsibility for the scobe that smashed up my partner's car in Cork? Do you take responsibility for the brats who set fire to a car up against a set of residential flats a couple of years ago in Cork? Do you take responsibility for the pair of gits that flung rocks through the window of a Galway mosque? Why should you?

She had no choice where she was born. Others had choices to dismiss her based on it. How dare she not just curl up and accept that she deserves all she got because members of her "community" are assholes rather than taking the hardest way out that requires the most character and determination.

I have a lot of issues regarding Traveller culture and what it does to individuals within their systems that want to get out or want to keep parts of their culture but reject the dangerous elements, the misogyny, the poor healthcare, the poor and broken education. I also have a great deal of issue with condemning individuals (especially children who really cannot do anything about it!) based on their nationality, the culture they were born into, the religion they were born into, their skin colour, their language or their fcuking hairstyle.

First off, I hope she keeps going and has a successful education and career afterwards, I really do. She is an example in a lot of ways of what the travelling community need to do in order to change our perception of them and I hope she provides an example to follow for others.

Do I accept responsibility for all the above? It's not a good comparison, I imagine you realise that but still, yes in a lot of ways I do through my taxes and insurance premiums, all of which I have to earn by going out to work every workday.

Eevs98 · 20-06-2017 08:41AM

lawred2 wrote: »

Actually when most people have personal anecdotes it gets harder and harder to dismiss them as meaningless.

Personal anecdote: "I saw a traveller abuse a horse, therefore abusing horses is part of their culture."

Yet actual travellers reject the notion that it's cultural and work to counter it and call it vile and inhumane, and tell those travellers that do it to stop using culture as a cop out. That's what I mean by personal anecdotes. They are only a surface indicator, and leave the person with a poor understanding of reality.

s3rtvdbwfj81ch · 20-06-2017 08:42AM

I don't think there's a person in the country who hasn't had some kind of "bad experience" with a Traveller in some form or another. I had one man threaten to bite my nose off because I had the temerity to ask him to pay for the batteries he had tried to sneak past me when I was working the till in a well known electrical retail store. That scumbag waited outside the shop until closing time to accost me again.

In that same job I've seen mothers pretty much training children how to rob, then turn on the waterworks when asked to leave or pay for the goods stuffed into their clothes. Not crying, my hole.

I make no apologies for my "prejudice" - it's based in real life experience and not some untrue picture that I've been warped with.

Samaris · 20-06-2017 08:42AM

MyStubbleItches wrote: »

First off, I hope she keeps going and has a successful education and career afterwards, I really do. She is an example in a lot of ways of what the travelling community need to do in order to change our perception of them and I hope she provides an example to follow for others.

Do I accept responsibility for all the above? It's not a good comparison, I imagine you realise that but still, yes in a lot of ways I do through my taxes and insurance premiums, all of which I have to earn by going out to work every workday.

As will she when she goes out to work - although I would not be surprised if she stays in England and contributes to their economy rather than ours.

I really hope that Brexit doesn't screw her over in terms of university though.

eamonnq · 20-06-2017 08:43AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

That's the last time I ever really associated with a black lad. Over the years I've gotten too much abuse from them, seen them mistreat too many animals and in general cause too much trouble.

At a certain point judging people isn't prejudice. It's knowing what to expect based on things you've seen happening all your life.

Have you ? Have you really ??

Wibbs · 20-06-2017 08:43AM

Our life expectancy is 61 years old. Our suicide rate is seven times higher than the general population. 50% of travellers die before their 39th birthday. 10% of traveller children die before the age of two, compared to just 1% of the general population. 70% of us die before our 59th birthday.Only 3% of us live passed the age of 65. Less than 13% of us finish secondary school compared to 93% of the general population. Less than 1% of us go on to third level education, and more than 70% of traveller children live in families where the mother has no formal education at all. 84% of us are unemployed. 60% of Irish people have said that they wouldn?t allow their child to marry a traveller, 18% of them would strip us (an indigenous ethnic group) of our Irish citizenship. 80% say they wouldn?t live near us, 61% say they wouldn?t be friends with a traveller, and 75% say they wouldn?t approach us socially. 43% admitted that even if we were the most qualified applicant for a job, they wouldn?t employ us. 83% of traveller children have been racially attacked, 73% of us have been refused service on the grounds of our ethnicity, in shops, hotels, bars, restaurants, and 100s of other businesses too numerous to name. The European parliament declared that the ?single most discriminated against ethnic group is the travelling people.? The ESRI has described the conditions that most travellers live in as ?intolerable?, stating that ?no humane and decent society, once made aware of such circumstances, could permit them to persist.? It described travellers as ?a uniquely disadvantaged group: impoverished, under- educated, often despised and ostracised , they live on the margins of Irish society.? They found that more than half live without electricity, baths, showers and hot water, and that over a third were without toilets.

And near every single one of those statistics is down to the group, culture and individual's choice. They choose to live apart. They choose not to integrate. They choose to be on the periphery of society. And then demand special treatment because of this choice? Get off the stage love. And they wonder why they're viewed with such suspicion? Really? And that's way before we get to the antisocial aspects of that "culture" and that list is a long and verifiable one. No personal anecdotes required. Maybe she should have added the percentage of prison population and convictions to her list.

I've known two lads who came from traveller stock. Their grandparents were travellers. The same grandparents made a different choice and applied for and got the council house, sent their kids to school, encouraged them in school and in seeking careers and in less than two generations the family became your average normal folk and part of society. That is not an unusual story either. Walk down any street in Ireland and you will pass by countless examples of people whose forebears came from disadvantaged backgrounds, including travellers. Yes there is no excuse for such stats in a modern western liberal society with enormous levels of social safety nets and support, but the fault doesn't lie with that society.

myshirt · 20-06-2017 08:53AM

Part of the solution for integration is ensuring travellers can live and mix with socioeconomic classes in areas with ballpark 400k+ houses and median family incomes of 70k+.

This gentrification needs to stop. Stop ringfencing certain socioeconomic classes into one area. We need to mix, and I would forcibly have this as part of housing and planning policy in this country. Those scoffing should stop, because it will happen, and the sooner the better.

Atticus Jung · 20-06-2017 08:55AM

I think the point is this is a cry for help. This person is only too aware of the failings of the traveling community and doesn't need to list them off because everyone else is all to willing. The onus needs to be on us to make more effort to understand and help integrate the traveling community into Irish values and society while respecting and honoring the traveling community culture. If we don't do something about it nothing will ever change.

lawred2 · 20-06-2017 08:57AM

myshirt wrote: »

Part of the solution for integration is ensuring travellers can live and mix with socioeconomic classes in areas with ballpark 400k+ houses and median family incomes of 70k+.

This gentrification needs to stop. Stop ringfencing certain socioeconomic classes into one area. We need to mix, and I would forcibly have this as part of housing and planning policy in this country. Those scoffing should stop, because it will happen, and the sooner the better.

Maybe North Korea would be more to your liking Comrade.

Eevs98 · 20-06-2017 09:00AM

myshirt wrote: »

Part of the solution for integration is ensuring travellers can live and mix with socioeconomic classes in areas with ballpark 400k+ houses and median family incomes of 70k+.

This gentrification needs to stop. Stop ringfencing certain socioeconomic classes into one area. We need to mix, and I would forcibly have this as part of housing and planning policy in this country. Those scoffing should stop, because it will happen, and the sooner the better.

I think you might want to double check the meaning of the word gentrification

Mokuba · 20-06-2017 09:01AM

What a load of rubbish that was.

They are not the victim, they are the problem.

And a horrible one at that.

Eevs98 · 20-06-2017 09:05AM

Mokuba wrote: »

What a load of rubbish that was.

They are not the victim, they are the problem.

And a horrible one at that.

So a factual post is a load of rubbish, but your one sentence bullsh*t claim is gospel? Lol

20-06-2017 09:05AM

Samaris wrote: »

As will she when she goes out to work - although I would not be surprised if she stays in England and contributes to their economy rather than ours.

I really hope that Brexit doesn't screw her over in terms of university though.

Nah, if we take the article at face value I'd be very surprised if she doesn't end up working as an advocate/media person.

Mokuba · 20-06-2017 09:10AM

Eevs98 wrote: »

So a factual post is a load of rubbish, but your one sentence bullsh*t claim is gospel? Lol

How is it factual?

It's anecdotal.

Interesting article about Travellers by a Traveller

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