Interesting article about Travellers by a Traveller

BalcombeSt4

https://medium.com/@clxddxgh/dear-settled-people-we-need-to-talk-5e32c0797881

Dear settled people: we need to talk.

I was four years old the first time I remember being discernibly aware that I was different. A girl in my class was having a birthday party, a party that we were all invited to. But when I showed up with my mother I was asked to leave. My friends mother had nothing against us you see- she’d just rather we weren’t there. She “didn’t want any trouble”. I remember that particular incident, not because it was particularly momentous,not because of how particularly ridiculous it was that she thought a four year old girl was interested in causing trouble, but because when we returned home that afternoon I saw my mother cry for the first and only time. Crying isn’t something that we travellers do, it’s a sign of weakness even in children. So to see my mother, an adult, someone who was supposed to be unshakeable, cry over something that hadn’t even really bothered me, frightened me. I didn’t know then what she did- that what had happened wasn’t a singular trivial event but rather a symptom of a larger problem. A problem that 18 years later I still haven’t managed to escape.


...

I loved it taught it was great, articulate & moving.

Irish Praetorian

Very moving, very touching, one cant help but reflect on the horror of some of these experiences.

And yet, it seems like a completely one sided piece (quite understandably) that concieves of the prejudices faced by travellers as having emerged from the whim of the settled community. Theres no sense of the overwhelmingly negative experience of travellers that I suspect most people on boards would attest to. Its almost as if the problems of the travelling community have nothing to do with that community but are simply a pox on them from the rest of society.

More than that, I cant help but feel that this rage against the status quo is fundamentally empty and without direction. I mean "we need to talk" about what? The prejudices that settled folks tend to hold? Sounds like a great idea but when those prejudices are grounded in peoples learned experience its one hell of a task to undo them, and ultimately to what purpose? Say we get teachers who listen more, students who are friendlier, more travellers in higher education. What purpose does that serve if those people end up like the author, relapsing into tribal identity and grievance culture.

This is probably the most galling part for me, someone who struggles through the difficulties, overcomes the adversities and then still feels inextricably tied to an identity randomly assigned at birth. Its not pleasant but we will continue to have a traveller problem so long as the notion of a separate traveller identity exists. What we need to do is enourage people to shear themselves from the caravans and the camps, to leave behind the behaviours that have caused so much difficulty, to do what the author did and dive headfirst into maimstream society so that people cannot distinguish them from it and embrace that new identity.

Now I know this is going to strike people as stolid, uncaring, cruel even. But reading that sad account of the way things are just leaves me with more contempt for the prevailing doctrine of "unique distinct culture" as a cowardly mechanism for pandering. We need to leave aside the mistakes of previous decades and having totally distinct communities within a country and instead pursue active assimilation. Because the author seems right about one thing for sure, the status quo isnt enough.

Omackeral

It's a well written piece. It's nice to read something from a personal POV from someone within a community that doesn't often get the microphone. Before the usual barbs of 'taxes' and 'brand new 171 cars' have the chance to hit this thread, it was interesting just to read the account unopposed. There was something refreshing almost about the shoe being on the other foot for a change. It's an account from one person who was seemingly written off before even knowing how to write herself.

Irish Guitarist

To be fair I don't think anyone starts off disliking travellers. I knew two boys who were travellers in primary school. One of them was a likable lad and the other was a lot rougher. They would beat the heads off each other when they got together but only one of them caused anyone else any trouble. I used to hang around with the more likable lad during break time.

That's the last time I ever really associated with a traveller. Over the years I've gotten too much abuse from them, seen them mistreat too many animals and in general cause too much trouble.

I'm sure they're not all like that but I guarantee you there are more of them out to cause trouble than that aren't. That's a nice article and very well written but she also 'needs to talk' to the many troublemakers who drag their names through the mud. This 'prejudice' didn't just come from nowhere. She mentioned the funeral for the travellers and the discrimination they faced. I think one of the funerals ended up being held here and the attendees did indeed cause a lot of damage in a pub. I remember seeing them outside and noticed the local rapist among their ranks.

At a certain point judging people isn't prejudice. It's knowing what to expect based on things you've seen happening all your life.

Irish Guitarist

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

To be fair I don't think anyone starts off disliking travellers. I knew two boys who were travellers in primary school. One of them was a likable lad and the other was a lot rougher. They would beat the heads off each other when they got together but only one of them caused anyone else any trouble. I used to hang around with the more likable lad during break time.

That's the last time I ever really associated with a traveller. Over the years I've gotten too much abuse from them, seen them mistreat too many animals and in general cause too much trouble.

I'm sure they're not all like that but I guarantee you there are more of them out to cause trouble than that aren't. That's a nice article and very well written but she also 'needs to talk' to the many troublemakers who drag their names through the mud. This 'prejudice' didn't just come from nowhere. She mentioned the funeral for the travellers and the discrimination they faced. I think one of the funerals ended up being held here and the attendees did indeed cause a lot of damage in a pub. I remember seeing them outside and noticed the local rapist among their ranks.

At a certain point judging people isn't prejudice. It's knowing what to expect based on things you've seen happening all your life.

To be fair I don't think anyone starts off disliking black people. I knew two boys who were black in primary school. One of them was a likable lad and the other was a lot rougher. They would beat the heads off each other when they got together but only one of them caused anyone else any trouble. I used to hang around with the more likable lad during break time.

That's the last time I ever really associated with a black lad. Over the years I've gotten too much abuse from them, seen them mistreat too many animals and in general cause too much trouble.

I'm sure they're not all like that but I guarantee you there are more of them out to cause trouble than that aren't. That's a nice article and very well written but she also 'needs to talk' to the many troublemakers who drag their names through the mud. This 'prejudice' didn't just come from nowhere. She mentioned the funeral for the blacks and the discrimination they faced. I think one of the funerals ended up being held here and the attendees did indeed cause a lot of damage in a pub. I remember seeing them outside and noticed the local rapist among their ranks.

At a certain point judging people isn't prejudice. It's knowing what to expect based on things you've seen happening all your life.

Irish Guitarist

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

To be fair I don't think anyone starts off disliking black people. I knew two boys who were black in primary school. One of them was a likable lad and the other was a lot rougher. They would beat the heads off each other when they got together but only one of them caused anyone else any trouble. I used to hang around with the more likable lad during break time.

That's the last time I ever really associated with a black lad. Over the years I've gotten too much abuse from them, seen them mistreat too many animals and in general cause too much trouble.

I'm sure they're not all like that but I guarantee you there are more of them out to cause trouble than that aren't. That's a nice article and very well written but she also 'needs to talk' to the many troublemakers who drag their names through the mud. This 'prejudice' didn't just come from nowhere. She mentioned the funeral for the blacks and the discrimination they faced. I think one of the funerals ended up being held here and the attendees did indeed cause a lot of damage in a pub. I remember seeing them outside and noticed the local rapist among their ranks.

At a certain point judging people isn't prejudice. It's knowing what to expect based on things you've seen happening all your life.

Well done. :rolleyes: I especially like how you kept it really relevant. Everything I said can definitely be applied to black people. Blacks are also well known for animal abuse. I see them neglecting their horses all the time. And I remember those funerals for the blacks that died in their caravans a few years ago too.

Irish Guitarist

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

Well done. :rolleyes: I especially like how you kept it really relevant. Everything I said can definitely be applied to black people. Blacks are also well known for animal abuse. I see them neglecting their horses all the time. And I remember those funerals for the blacks that died in their caravans a few years ago too.

No I'm being completely serious, friend.

I'm basing my experiences of black people on two lads I knew in school, who would beat the heads off one another. One was likeable, but the other was a lot rougher.

I haven't really associated with black lads since, but I did once see a few of them hanging around with a RAPIST.

What's the problem, lad? Just relating our similar experiences here

At a certain point judging people isn't prejudice. It's knowing what to expect based on things you've seen happening all your life.

soups05

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

To be fair I don't think anyone starts off disliking black people. I knew two boys who were black in primary school. One of them was a likable lad and the other was a lot rougher. They would beat the heads off each other when they got together but only one of them caused anyone else any trouble. I used to hang around with the more likable lad during break time.

That's the last time I ever really associated with a black lad. Over the years I've gotten too much abuse from them, seen them mistreat too many animals and in general cause too much trouble.

I'm sure they're not all like that but I guarantee you there are more of them out to cause trouble than that aren't. That's a nice article and very well written but she also 'needs to talk' to the many troublemakers who drag their names through the mud. This 'prejudice' didn't just come from nowhere. She mentioned the funeral for the blacks and the discrimination they faced. I think one of the funerals ended up being held here and the attendees did indeed cause a lot of damage in a pub. I remember seeing them outside and noticed the local rapist among their ranks.

At a certain point judging people isn't prejudice. It's knowing what to expect based on things you've seen happening all your life.

so change traveler to black and you prove what? if a certain group act in a certain way then naturally people will come to expect that of that group.

am i racist? hell yes! i worked in a shop for 20 years and could tell when a group of travelers came in whether they would behave like normal people or rob the place blind. the difference is that i adapted, its a game to them, a matter of honor almost, to get one over on one of us settled folk. they steal then they win, we stop them then we win. most of the time there was no real trouble. as long as we played the game and did not take it personal.
as for never crying, horse shlt, as soon as you catch one they turn on the tears and make out like they are innocent victims.
four years old being turned away from parties? hardly surprising, at 3 they are walking around shops stealing anything they can, it trained into them like walking and talking and if you think am wrong, go work in a shop sometime.

i have traveler friends, they will agree with everything i posted, some even went all the way through college, so the person who wrote that letter is either a liar or part of the 1% who get a bad name from the 99%

bobbyss

soups05 wrote:

so change traveler to black and you prove what? if a certain group act in a certain way then naturally people will come to expect that of that group.

Very true. You would wonder how many invitations the traveller family themselves gave out to the classmates for their own child's birthday? And how many were accepted?

Irish Guitarist

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

No I'm being completely serious, friend.

I'm basing my experiences of black people on two lads I knew in school, who would beat the heads off one another. One was likeable, but the other was a lot rougher.

I haven't really associated with black lads since, but I did once see a few of them hanging around with a RAPIST.

What's the problem, lad? Just relating our similar experiences here

At a certain point judging people isn't prejudice. It's knowing what to expect based on things you've seen happening all your life.

If you want to defend travellers do so in your own words and maybe relay a story about your experiences with them but stop talking absolute bollocks to appear funny. I mentioned plenty of things besides the lads I knew in school including all the animal abuse I've seen over the years. You can't walk down the river here without seeing a horse starving to dead.

This is the type of shit that's killing Boards. People don't bother reading 99% of what you say.

Donald Trump

It's a pity. Vicious cycle and all that.
But it is not as simple as people being prejudiced with zero reason.
From the article, she is 22. got 12As in her junior but no mention of anything else further. I refuse to believe that any school would not support a good student like that.
Responsibility needs to be taken by people themselves rather than complaining all the time. It might not be fair but you have to lift yourself out of these holes.

893bet

"I was class president, student council rep, captain of the debate team,I represented the school at international swimming competitions"

Also went from not being able to do long division to 12a while having no support. Right.

I call fake based on that sentence. Too americanised.

Travellers have got themselves to blame for how they are perceived. There is a reason they don't get served often. A self fulfilling one I saw first hand.

Donald Trump

soups05 wrote: »

i have traveler friends, they will agree with everything i posted, some even went all the way through college, so the person who wrote that letter is either a liar or part of the 1% who get a bad name from the 99%

marklazarcovic

She has a point of course,but also is missing the point, traveller's want separate rules for themselves and WANT to live separately from the rest of us, at least the male members do, respect only works if it goes both ways,you only have to look at young Traveller children to see they respect nothing but their own immediate world , anything or anyone outside of it does not get one iota of respect.

Again this is mainly male traveller's,it's taught to them by male siblings and male peers as they grow up,I've seen it,there are plenty in Galway. I hired a female traveller a few years ago,she fitted the bill for the job,but she had to leave after a week because she was getting grief of her brothers and uncle's for trying to be something she's not ,those were her words to me that they were pressing on her.
You could see she just wanted to live a life like anyone else,but it was other Traveller's that we're stopping her,for me that's the main thing holding them back, themselves.

dr.fuzzenstein

@marklazarcovic
You got it in one. An ex work colleague of mine is from Moyross. His argument was that instead of blaming everyone else for your misfortune (perceived or real) and looking for reasons to fail you must realise that there are the same chances out there for everyone. To give up and say "I can't succeed because of XYZ" is just victim mentality.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

To be fair I don't think anyone starts off disliking black people.

Funny how I've never seen any videos of Africans sulky racing, bare knuckle boxing, attacking each other with knifes and slash hooks in a primary school or church, living on the side of the road with rubbish strewn in a mile wide radius and burn houses they got off the state.
That is the grim, verifiable reality of it, the numbers, news reports and personal experience of the population back it up irrefutably.
The lazy "is it cause I's black" comparison is not an argument.

Canis Lupus

judeboy101

"We were going through the same process that every child does in sixth class- attending open days, reading through piles of shiny contrived prospectuses, comparing school choices with our friends "

What school was he in ffs?? Eton or harrow? Completely one sided article never addressing the inherent misogyny, racism, homophobia and seperatism that pervades in the traveller "culture".

Rumpy Pumpy

Almost everyone associates travellers with violence and criminality.

Irish Guitarist

Part of her reply to someone that mentioned animal abuse

If you truly knew travellers as you claim to, and if you knew our culture, then you would know that animal abuse has no part in it and is absolutely intolerable.

That is absolute nonsense. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and accept she's an animal lover but to suggest that animal abuse isn't part of 'traveller culture' is either a blatant lie or her idea of abuse is different to mine. There's a halting site next to the river here and it's heartbreaking to see the horses dumped in various areas tied to trees with no room to moved, malnourished and dying of thirst. Last year a friend posted a picture of one these horses that had died of starvation in an attempt to get people to phone the council and get something down. This isn't a one off incident either. There are loads of them dying around there.

bobbyss

judeboy101 wrote:

"We were going through the same process that every child does in sixth class- attending open days, reading through piles of shiny contrived prospectuses, comparing school choices with our friends "

When I was in sixth class I never even heard of the word prospectuses. The article needs to be looked at again. Sounds hollow.

Samaris

bobbyss wrote: »

When I was in sixth class I never even heard of the word prospectuses. The article needs to be looked at again. Sounds hollow.

Really? I did, and our school was a feeder school for the main local secondary so they were a bit pointless.

I played every sport my school had to offer, I was class president, student council rep, captain of the debate team,I represented the school at international swimming competitions, I worked as a meitheal leader,I volunteered for countless charities, I was head of the coiste gaeilge and the green schools committee, I got 12As in my junior cert — you name it, I did it.

We too had a green schools committee, prefects, class reps we called ours, worked with local charities. Don't know what a meitheal leader is, we didn't have a coiste gaeilge and our debate society folded pretty quick but we had a few other things going that her school probably didn't. Also had several county-level swimmers and the sibling of one of them became a national-level swimmer.

Dunno why that's being called out (not by you in this regard, poster on the last page) as unbelievable. I wasn't any sort of interesting kid and I held four of the posts she mentioned in secondary. Shrug.

There's certainly major issues in the Travelling community, but I don't see why she's being called a liar for actually not uncommon Irish schooling experience. And if her teachers were as lousy (in the main) as ours for preventing bullying (and in a few cases contributing to it), I can quite see that she had a rough time of it. I know someone who was sidelined and regarded suspiciously because his elder siblings had been problematic (he himself wasn't, bar in reaction to bullying), so I don't have an issue believing that certain teachers would see "Traveller" and dismiss her as not worth the effort.

lawred2

Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »

Almost everyone associates travellers with violence and criminality.

Everyone must be wrong then or something...

judeboy101

I'm calling bs on 12 A's. I don't know any school capable of offering 6 junior cert non core options on the timetable. 4 maybe but not 6.

Canis Lupus

lawred2 wrote: »

Everyone must be wrong then or something...

Who are we to argue with an article written by a traveller?

judeboy101

judeboy101 wrote: »

I'm calling bs on 12 A's. I don't know any school capable of offering 6 junior cert non core options on the timetable. 4 maybe but not 6.

Different curriculum, perhaps. Pretty sure I sat 10.

12 does happen

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/i-never-thought-i-would-get-12-as-six-students-celebrate-top-marks-as-junior-cert-results-are-revealed-35048736.html

Irish Guitarist

Found a picture of a dead horse that was left to rot by the river that a friend took and posted on Facebook. I'm attaching it but won't embed it so that anyone that doesn't want to see it doesn't have to. This was taken not far from where I live. Unfortunately it's not an uncommon sight there.

I find it hard not to be prejudiced against a group of people who have this as part of their 'culture'. If they could sort that out and if the member of the family that owns these horses could stop sexually assaulting women I'd stop being 'prejudiced'.

Eevs98

Donald Trump wrote: »

It's a pity. Vicious cycle and all that.
But it is not as simple as people being prejudiced with zero reason.
From the article, she is 22. got 12As in her junior but no mention of anything else further. I refuse to believe that any school would not support a good student like that.
Responsibility needs to be taken by people themselves rather than complaining all the time. It might not be fair but you have to lift yourself out of these holes.

I followed the girl on twitter for a while, she's 18, predicted 615 points in the leaving cert, and she has an offer to study at Cambridge University in the UK. I'd say that's fairly indicative of someone who's taken responsibility for themselves. I don't know where ye got 22 from to be honest.

A Battered Mars Bar

Tl:Dr

First off don't called me "settled" I was never a traveller.

Second this crap " traveller's don't cry" get a grip and accept your emotions and stop stunting your own people with sh*t like that. It's 2017. Stop turning to us to fix your problems. There's no one in this state interested in discriminating against travellers but it's the societal problems that you cause yourself is the issue. Look in the mirror.

punisher5112

I didn't get invited to birthday parties when in school either.

School was a horrible time and experience for me so does that mean I'm a traveller..

Look if they want to gain respect they need to give it.

I've come across many over the years and over 90% I have met couldn't be trusted.

In different places of work they have tried all the tricks from stealing to calling one out they're racist or discriminating against them.

I'm sure some are lovely decent people and that's great but its sad to see so many are crooks and in it to gain from others.

Call me Al

Eevs98 wrote: »

I followed the girl on twitter for a while, she's 18, predicted 615 points in the leaving cert, and she has an offer to study at Cambridge University in the UK. I'd say that's fairly indicative of someone who's taken responsibility for themselves. I don't know where ye got 22 from to be honest.

She said 18 years ago she was asked to leave a party when she was she 4.
18+4.....

Tell me how

Eevs98 wrote:

I don't know where ye got 22 from to be honest.

From where they said "I was 4 years old" and then,
"a problem that 18 years later I still haven't managed to escape"

Eevs98

If anyone of ye were to talk to the girl yerselves, or even make any effort to research things past personal anecdotes which mean sweet fa anyway, then ye'd see she frequently addresses the things yer bringing up about culture, education and group mentality. It's not really victim culture when they are often victims is it? A small preportion of them (admittedly a larger proportion than the settled population, but still a small majority of the total community nonetheless), are criminals, and the rest of them are completely written off because of it. Ye can talk about all those things they need to change within their own communities, but how can they change them if they have to spend all their time dealing with **** they get from us?

A Battered Mars Bar

Eevs98 wrote: »

If anyone of ye were to talk to the girl yerselves, or even make any effort to research things past personal anecdotes which mean sweet fa anyway, then ye'd see she frequently addresses the things yer bringing up about culture, education and group mentality. It's not really victim culture when they are often victims is it? A small preportion of them (admittedly a larger proportion than the settled population, but still a small majority of the total community nonetheless), are criminals, and the rest of them are completely written off because of it. Ye can talk about all those things they need to change within their own communities, but how can they change them if they have to spend all their time dealing with **** they get from us?

Ye ye ye ye ye ye let's start with you

Eevs98

Tell me how wrote: »

From where they said "I was 4 years old" and then,
"a problem that 18 years later I still haven't managed to escape"

Yeah means 18 years in total because that's how old she is

MyStubbleItches

Eevs98 wrote: »

I followed the girl on twitter for a while, she's 18, predicted 615 points in the leaving cert, and she has an offer to study at Cambridge University in the UK. I'd say that's fairly indicative of someone who's taken responsibility for themselves. I don't know where ye got 22 from to be honest.

She might have taken responsibility for herself but refuses to take responsibility for her culture. Also, how will she be funded in Cambridge if she goes there?

Eevs98

A Battered Mars Bar wrote: »

Ye ye ye ye ye ye let's start with you

Congratulations on forming a really coherent reply. You've convinced me with that one, I bow to your superior intellect

Eevs98

MyStubbleItches wrote: »

She might have taken responsibility for herself but refuses to take responsibility for her culture. Also, how will she be funded in Cambridge if she goes there?

She does take responsibility to for her culture, if you see my other reply then I explain that. In the U.K. every student is given full tuition loans for the three years, and Cambridge offer huge grants and bursaries because they're a very rich school. She also works, but I couldn't tell you how much she has saved from that because that's not exactly information she throws around online

Irish Guitarist

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

That is absolute nonsense. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and accept she's an animal lover but to suggest that animal abuse isn't part of 'traveller culture' is either a blatant lie or her idea of abuse is different to mine. There's a halting site next to the river here and it's heartbreaking to see the horses dumped in various areas tied to trees with no room to moved, malnourished and dying of thirst. Last year a friend posted a picture of one these horses that had died of starvation in an attempt to get people to phone the council and get something down. This isn't a one off incident either. There are loads of them dying around there.

It's the same as how their religion is important, they don't do drugs, would never hit a woman, never have sex outside marriage etc.

judeboy101

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Different curriculum, perhaps. Pretty sure I sat 10.

12 does happen

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/i-never-thought-i-would-get-12-as-six-students-celebrate-top-marks-as-junior-cert-results-are-revealed-35048736.html

Fair enough, so she beats the large odds of travellers not doing the jc, coupled with the 1 in 10,000 odds of getting 12 A's despite her school looking down on her, appears in no media reports about beating such astronomical odds.well done to her.

MyStubbleItches

MyStubbleItches wrote: »

She might have taken responsibility for herself but refuses to take responsibility for her culture.

How can a teenager "take responsibility for her culture"? You might as well ask any Irish teenager to take responsibility for alcoholism in Irish society.

Also, how will she be funded in Cambridge if she goes there?

Presumably, the same way I and everyone else who attended a public university: a mixture of family support and exchequer support, through general taxation.

Nobody pays their own way through university, except for a small number of non-EU students.

MyStubbleItches

Eevs98 wrote: »

She does take responsibility to for her culture, if you see my other reply then I explain that. In the U.K. every student is given full tuition loans for the three years, and Cambridge offer huge grants and bursaries because they're a very rich school. She also works, but I couldn't tell you how much she has saved from that because that's not exactly information she throws around online

But she claims that there isn't a culture of animal abuse.

VinLieger

From the article wrote:

Our life expectancy is 61 years old. Our suicide rate is seven times higher than the general population. 50% of travellers die before their 39th birthday. 10% of traveller children die before the age of two, compared to just 1% of the general population. 70% of us die before our 59th birthday.Only 3% of us live passed the age of 65. Less than 13% of us finish secondary school compared to 93% of the general population. Less than 1% of us go on to third level education, and more than 70% of traveller children live in families where the mother has no formal education at all.

All of the above stats are consequences of choices made by the traveling community and have nothing to do with any forms of discrimination

Eevs98

MyStubbleItches wrote: »

But she claims that there isn't a culture of animal abuse.

No, she says that animal abuse isn't part of the culture, there's a difference. She says that travellers who do abuse animals and who use culture as an excuse are using it as a copout so they don't have to take responsibility, because culture would mean that it was part of their history and it's not it a relatively new thing.

Samaris

MyStubbleItches wrote: »

She might have taken responsibility for herself but refuses to take responsibility for her culture. Also, how will she be funded in Cambridge if she goes there?

May well be a scholarship if her results come out that high.

Fair play to her. I hope she goes to the UK, does her degree surrounded by people who only have a very vague idea of what a Traveller is and don't care. She's worked her ass off and taken responsibility for herself with a lot against her. I hope she can be an inspiration for her younger brothers too.

And she doesn't have to take responsibility for the whole culture, particularly not the dodgy parts of it that she appears to have nothing to do with. She's 18/22. Either. She's giving her experiences. She owes you nothing. Do you take responsibility for the Magdalene Laundries? Do you take responsibility for white nationalism? Do you take responsibility for what the IRA did? Do you take responsibility for the scandals around the Catholic Church? Do you take responsibility for that the Hutch/Kinahan feud is still going on? Do you take responsibility for the scobe that smashed up my partner's car in Cork? Do you take responsibility for the brats who set fire to a car up against a set of residential flats a couple of years ago in Cork? Do you take responsibility for the pair of gits that flung rocks through the window of a Galway mosque? Why should you?

She had no choice where she was born. Others had choices to dismiss her based on it. How dare she not just curl up and accept that she deserves all she got because members of her "community" are assholes rather than taking the hardest way out that requires the most character and determination.

I have a lot of issues regarding Traveller culture and what it does to individuals within their systems that want to get out or want to keep parts of their culture but reject the dangerous elements, the misogyny, the poor healthcare, the poor and broken education. I also have a great deal of issue with condemning individuals (especially children who really cannot do anything about it!) based on their nationality, the culture they were born into, the religion they were born into, their skin colour, their language or their fcuking hairstyle.

MyStubbleItches

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

How can a teenager "take responsibility for her culture"? You might as well ask any Irish teenager to take responsibility for alcoholism in Irish society.

Presumably, the same way I and everyone else who attended a public university: a mixture of family support and exchequer support, through general taxation.

Nobody pays their own way through university, except for a small number of non-EU students.

By claiming that there is no culture of animal abuse within her community she is refusing to take responsibility.

As for funding college, fine if she gets grants and tuition fees, etc. but family support? I'll accept that not all travellers are living the high life off the proceeds of crime but it's undeniable by anyone with an ounce of experience with them that a lot of them supplement their incomes through dodgy means. The ones who claim that they're not involved in crime are quite possibly still living off the proceeds of it while claiming to be innocent victims.

lawred2

Eevs98 wrote: »

If anyone of ye were to talk to the girl yerselves, or even make any effort to research things past personal anecdotes which mean sweet fa anyway, then ye'd see she frequently addresses the things yer bringing up about culture, education and group mentality. It's not really victim culture when they are often victims is it? A small preportion of them (admittedly a larger proportion than the settled population, but still a small majority of the total community nonetheless), are criminals, and the rest of them are completely written off because of it. Ye can talk about all those things they need to change within their own communities, but how can they change them if they have to spend all their time dealing with **** they get from us?

Actually when most people have personal anecdotes it gets harder and harder to dismiss them as meaningless.

Rumpy Pumpy

Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »

Almost everyone associates travellers with violence and criminality.

No one should "associate" a 4 year old child with anything of the sort. It's hardly their fault.

MyStubbleItches

Samaris wrote: »

May well be a scholarship if her results come out that high.

Fair play to her. I hope she goes to the UK, does her degree surrounded by people who only have a very vague idea of what a Traveller is and don't care. She's worked her ass off and taken responsibility for herself with a lot against her. I hope she can be an inspiration for her younger brothers too.

And she doesn't have to take responsibility for the whole culture, particularly not the dodgy parts of it that she appears to have nothing to do with. She's 18/22. Either. She's giving her experiences. She owes you nothing. Do you take responsibility for the Magdalene Laundries? Do you take responsibility for white nationalism? Do you take responsibility for what the IRA did? Do you take responsibility for the scandals around the Catholic Church? Do you take responsibility for that the Hutch/Kinahan feud is still going on? Do you take responsibility for the scobe that smashed up my partner's car in Cork? Do you take responsibility for the brats who set fire to a car up against a set of residential flats a couple of years ago in Cork? Do you take responsibility for the pair of gits that flung rocks through the window of a Galway mosque? Why should you?

She had no choice where she was born. Others had choices to dismiss her based on it. How dare she not just curl up and accept that she deserves all she got because members of her "community" are assholes rather than taking the hardest way out that requires the most character and determination.

I have a lot of issues regarding Traveller culture and what it does to individuals within their systems that want to get out or want to keep parts of their culture but reject the dangerous elements, the misogyny, the poor healthcare, the poor and broken education. I also have a great deal of issue with condemning individuals (especially children who really cannot do anything about it!) based on their nationality, the culture they were born into, the religion they were born into, their skin colour, their language or their fcuking hairstyle.

First off, I hope she keeps going and has a successful education and career afterwards, I really do. She is an example in a lot of ways of what the travelling community need to do in order to change our perception of them and I hope she provides an example to follow for others.

Do I accept responsibility for all the above? It's not a good comparison, I imagine you realise that but still, yes in a lot of ways I do through my taxes and insurance premiums, all of which I have to earn by going out to work every workday.

Eevs98

lawred2 wrote: »

Actually when most people have personal anecdotes it gets harder and harder to dismiss them as meaningless.

Personal anecdote: "I saw a traveller abuse a horse, therefore abusing horses is part of their culture."

Yet actual travellers reject the notion that it's cultural and work to counter it and call it vile and inhumane, and tell those travellers that do it to stop using culture as a cop out. That's what I mean by personal anecdotes. They are only a surface indicator, and leave the person with a poor understanding of reality.

s3rtvdbwfj81ch

I don't think there's a person in the country who hasn't had some kind of "bad experience" with a Traveller in some form or another. I had one man threaten to bite my nose off because I had the temerity to ask him to pay for the batteries he had tried to sneak past me when I was working the till in a well known electrical retail store. That scumbag waited outside the shop until closing time to accost me again.

In that same job I've seen mothers pretty much training children how to rob, then turn on the waterworks when asked to leave or pay for the goods stuffed into their clothes. Not crying, my hole.

I make no apologies for my "prejudice" - it's based in real life experience and not some untrue picture that I've been warped with.

Samaris

MyStubbleItches wrote: »

First off, I hope she keeps going and has a successful education and career afterwards, I really do. She is an example in a lot of ways of what the travelling community need to do in order to change our perception of them and I hope she provides an example to follow for others.

Do I accept responsibility for all the above? It's not a good comparison, I imagine you realise that but still, yes in a lot of ways I do through my taxes and insurance premiums, all of which I have to earn by going out to work every workday.

As will she when she goes out to work - although I would not be surprised if she stays in England and contributes to their economy rather than ours.

I really hope that Brexit doesn't screw her over in terms of university though.