Interesting article about Travellers by a Traveller

BlinkingLights · 20-06-2017 09:13AM

There's definitely a problem here with a vicious cycle. There is a major issue with discrimination and that's then reinforced by antisocial behaviour.

To get past that issue you've got to get to a situation of mutual respect. That's absolutely not where we are right now.

The Bishop Basher · 20-06-2017 09:14AM

Eevs98 wrote: »

A small preportion of them (admittedly a larger proportion than the settled population, but still a small majority of the total community nonetheless), are criminals

Do you have any data to support this ?

I only ask as a couple of posters have mentioned it yet so many of us only ever seem to meet this "minority" ?

Atticus Jung wrote: »

The onus needs to be on us to make more effort to understand and help integrate the traveling community into Irish values and society while respecting and honoring the traveling community culture. If we don't do something about it nothing will ever change.

Sweet jesus :rolleyes:

I take it you haven't had any dealings with them then.

Come back to me when you've caught them trying to rob your house, had your tyres slashed, been threatened with slicing your throat and burning your house down with your family in it.

And that's only one in a very long line of negative experiences i've had with this "culture" over the years.

elefant · 20-06-2017 09:21AM

judeboy101 wrote: »

I'm calling bs on 12 A's. I don't know any school capable of offering 6 junior cert non core options on the timetable. 4 maybe but not 6.

It's definitely possible. I didn't go to, by any measurement, a fancy school, but I sat 12 relatively commonplace subjects for the Junior Cert.

Cee-Jay-Cee · 20-06-2017 09:24AM

I can see the authors point of view and I can understand how she felt having witnessed similar discrimination towards traveller children who were at school with me. I always got on well with them and we played together as children, they were just boys like me who wanted to play football and ride bikes etc etc I remember one day when they called around to my house and I went out to play with them, we went to my next door neighbours house to get one of my other friends and his mother came out and told them to clear off, I couldn't understand why and I left with them, only to be called back by my friends mother and told that she didn't mean me only 'them' I left with them anyway saying we were going to play football. They were well liked at school (as far as I was concerned) and played football with us every day and one of them in particular was the first to be picked when selecting teams at lunchtime/playtime.

I didn't have a negative opinion on travellers despite seeing them being treated poorly by others. However I have since changed my view on them, I do realise that there are probably very some decent travellers however I have yet to come across them in my line of work (and I meet quite a lot of them) As far as I'm concerned the majority (from a young age) engage in criminal activity and bring the vast majority of the negativity upon themselves. I am privy to a lot more information on them than most and from my experience none of them are poor and have considerably more wealth/fortune than 'settled' community yet no visible means of how they gained their wealth.

Draw what you will from that.

....... · 20-06-2017 09:24AM

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Eevs98 · 20-06-2017 09:28AM

Swanner wrote: »

Do you have any data to support this ?

I only ask as a couple of posters have mentioned it yet so many of us only ever seem to meet this "minority" ?

Sweet jesus :rolleyes:

I take it you haven't had any dealings with them then.

Come back to me when you've caught them trying to rob your house, had your tyres slashed, been threatened with slicing your throat and burning your house down with your family in it.

And that's only one in a very long line of negative experiences i've had with this "culture" over the years.

Afaik there's currently 547 travellers in the prison system (whether that be in prison, on parole, suspended sentences etc etc). The TPI estimates that in total approximately 7% of the travelling community partakes in, or benefits from crime, that statistic includes those who haven't been convicted or pursued, and the families of those who have been convicted that likely lived off the proceeds (which in the case of children is hardly their fault). Again, that's clearly not a small number in proportion to the settled community. But its still a minority of the population, that effects the other 93%.

My da owns a halting site down in Wexford and deals with travellers on a daily basis, comes across thousands of them in his work. He has only ever had issues with a very small minority, and says that people in wexford often interact with the "good" ones without even realising they're travellers. Many of them don't immediately fit the visual preconception, and unless you actually spent a decent amount of time with them you wouldn't cop.

gctest50 · 20-06-2017 09:32AM

myshirt wrote: »

Part of the solution for integration is ensuring travellers can live and mix with socioeconomic classes in areas with ballpark 400k+ houses and median family incomes of 70k+

This gentrification needs to stop.......

And should some Travellers stop building €750,000 houses c/w an AMG parked outside even though they have no visible means of support really ?

While some of them burn to death in a some effort of a halting site ?

myshirt wrote: »

.......Stop ringfencing certain socioeconomic classes into one area. We need to mix, and I would forcibly have this as part of housing and planning policy in this country. Those scoffing should stop, because it will happen, and the sooner the better.

Not sure if serious or kim jong

lazybones32 · 20-06-2017 09:42AM

One of my brothers was having a meal in newcastle west, limerick, when the traveller women started beating the ****e out of one of the women at the same table. She was told she was getting beaten because she had chosen to go to college and was making the family look bad.
The recent recurrence of a man being falsely accused of being a pedophile in kerry and being followed around a town and being harrassed- it wasn't settled teens who were doing that...I wish they would care as much about justice when it's one of their own who is the offender.

Maybe the author suffered stigma and exclusion but is it warranted? My grandaunt used invite tinkers in for food and would give them water, clothing, etc. They were mostly well received across the country but something in their habits and actions changed and they are no longer trusted. I suppose it is everyone elses fault.

Richard Hillman · 20-06-2017 09:48AM

People are not going to listen or change their stance on Travellers until their is an admittance that they must change themselves as part of an integration process.

Until then, we have absolutely no reason to change our attitudes towards them.

At no point in that letter is there a moment where the writer says we need to take responsibility for even some of their problems.

The traveller community is leaderless. The likes of Pavee Point and John Connors are ginormous problems to their cause in their absolute refusal to accept any responsibility for our attitudes towards them.

The Good Friday Agreement is an example of where opposite communities can come together. But the reason why they were able to reconcile was that both sides were willing to make concessions.

Our side have made tons of concessions. We offer housing, facilities for their horses, social welfare, education, community support (of which they rarely take up for the latter 2).

The traveller community have not given us one concession on their main issues of crime, the non reporting of crime, violence, sexism, homophobia, pollution, animal abuse, incest. They refuse to police themselves.

Lollipops23 · 20-06-2017 09:56AM

Extremely impressive young lady, no doubt about it.

But she has to accept that people didn't merely pluck their prejudices out of the sky. 99% of my interactions with travellers have been negative- from being sexually harassed by their menfolk, to serving them in the bookies I used to work in, to the time my grandfather was burgled by them while he was watching tv (he was hard of hearing) and died shortly after, having never gotten over the invasion.

When she acknowledges that there is a massive problem with her own community I'll take her seriously.

Captain Obvious · 20-06-2017 10:01AM

I doubt there's many out there that don't have a lot of sympathy for young travelers and the things they have to deal with growing up but I doubt this article will change many peoples views as it doesn't address any of the issues people have with travelers. It also projects blame on settled people for things that are totally down to traveler communities.

elbyrneo · 20-06-2017 10:10AM

Great well written article but very much a personal experience. If looking at sections of society (which leads to profiling and edges towards racism) nevertheless i always think of a groups contribution to society.

There are those who contribute (financially through taxes or creating employment, the arts or innovation, strongly
adhering to social and moral codes, providing essential services like healthcare etc etc).

Then there are those that are broadly neutral - contribute about as much to society as they receive. Normally most of us would be here but with current financial pressures we are probably contributing more overall than we receive back from society.

Then there are those who take from the system and give little back. Pay little or no tax, burden the state with welfare claims and health issues or crime, do not create an improved society for the future, lack social or moral codes.

Would love an educated traveller such as the author of the article to explain where they fit in the above as a now recognised ethic group, in terms of contribution and demand of society.

jackofalltrades · 20-06-2017 10:16AM

Dear settled people: we need to talk.

Great, but where are we actually going to have the conversation.
The media in this country seem to fall over themselves to push the "settled people are racists" angle.
I've yet to see RTE do a program that tries to properly address the issues from both sides.
So the discussion won't be had there.
I'd hazard a guess that most people don't have traveller friends or colleagues.
And I've only ever seen one person identify as a traveller on this site.

....... · 20-06-2017 10:18AM

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lawred2 · 20-06-2017 10:18AM

When did settled people settle?

The Bishop Basher · 20-06-2017 10:31AM

Eevs98 wrote: »

Afaik there's currently 547 travellers in the prison system (whether that be in prison, on parole, suspended sentences etc etc). The TPI estimates that in total approximately 7% of the travelling community partakes in, or benefits from crime, that statistic includes those who haven't been convicted or pursued, and the families of those who have been convicted that likely lived off the proceeds (which in the case of children is hardly their fault). Again, that's clearly not a small number in proportion to the settled community. But its still a minority of the population, that effects the other 93%.

See i'm just not buying your estimate of 7%.

My own experience and that of so many others posting here would be that it's more likely to be the other way round.. (93% are involved in crime)

And prison numbers are meaningless.. Travellers act with impunity. They have no fear of the Gardai or the court system and rarely get prosecuted for their crimes. On the contrary, most of them seem to do very well out of it.

RoboRat · 20-06-2017 10:35AM

My parents raised me to treat everyone equally and there was never any discrimination against travelers. I had few dealings with travelers bar when they would call to the door looking for food or to sharpen knives/ shears etc.

As I grew up I noticed a distinct prejudice against travelers and it made me feel uncomfortable. I had never been wronged by them so I felt it was unjust.

When I turned 18, I went to college and got a job doing the door in a nightclub. A few travelers came up one night and they were allowed in, they were told there was to be no trouble... 15 mins later it kicked off and they were thrown out, they came back with 14 others and proceeded to threaten us with axe handles, bushman saws, you name it. Fair enough, a few bad apples.

Then a friend of mine was beaten up badly by a group of travelers, he was pissed and by himself going home. Again, a few bad apples.

A group set up camp on a friend of my fathers and wouldn't move unless he paid them off. Again, a few bad apples.

Another group set up camp at a local beauty spot and ruined it, crap all over the place. Again, a few bad apples.

A load of houses were robbed in my estate and the thieves were caught, they were travelers. Again, a few bad apples.

When my wife went into have our first child, we ended up in a maternity room with travelers. They proceeded to kick a swiss ball around, landing on a new born baby. When I told them to cut it out, I was threatened. The kids tried to take the wallet out of my visiting mothers handbag from behind the curtain. Again, a few bad apples.

There have also been other instances of shoplifting & intimidation that I have witnessed and I slowly began to become prejudiced myself. My problem is that I never had a positive experience with a traveler and this has affected my view of them.

I am not saying that they are all bad but when you only have negative experiences, it shapes your views.

Perhaps its a viscous circle, they are not treated with respect and therefore have nothing to lose and don't show respect or try to be a part of the community because they feel they have already been judged.

I am trying to keep my mind open and judge everyone equally but its very hard... it's human nature to be defensive when logic says that you should be. I hate that I have become prejudiced but at the same time it is not something that just happened for no reason.

noaddedsugar · 20-06-2017 10:36AM

judeboy101 wrote: »

I'm calling bs on 12 A's. I don't know any school capable of offering 6 junior cert non core options on the timetable. 4 maybe but not 6.

I did 12 subjects in the junior cert too, I thought it was the norm until a couple of years ago. English, Irish, Maths, History, Geog, Home Ec, Art, CSPE, Latin, French, Science,Business Studies.

I had no dealings with travellers until I moved to Galway for college, my first introduction was a few days after I moved and some nice woman threatened to smash my head through a window because I said I didn't have a fag to give her. I grew up in the middle of nowhere and wasn't used to any hassle at all, my face was like this :eek:. I still had no idea that she was a traveller, I just thought it was a rough woman, I was really green and didn't know about travellers at all. Then I lived in Ballybane for a bit and had negative experience after negative experience. The worst was when my 2year old son had a screw driver held to his throat whilst I was turned around locking the front door by a kid who look about 5.
We moved out of the city now and our net door neighbours are travellers, they are really lovely, always dropping things over for the kids, just really nice people. They are loud and their normal conversations always sound like they are having a row but apart from that we couldn't ask for better neighbours.

will56 · 20-06-2017 11:00AM

marklazarcovic wrote: »

She has a point of course,but also is missing the point, traveller's want separate rules for themselves and WANT to live separately from the rest of us, at least the male members do, respect only works if it goes both ways,you only have to look at young Traveller children to see they respect nothing but their own immediate world , anything or anyone outside of it does not get one iota of respect.

This

Wibbs wrote: »

And near every single one of those statistics is down to the group, culture and individual's choice. They choose to live apart. They choose not to integrate. They choose to be on the periphery of society. And then demand special treatment because of this choice?

Yes there is no excuse for such stats in a modern western liberal society with enormous levels of social safety nets and support, but the fault doesn't lie with that society.

Not this

Atticus Jung wrote: »

The onus needs to be on us to make more effort to understand and help integrate the traveling community into Irish values and society while respecting and honoring the traveling community culture. If we don't do something about it nothing will ever change.

Traveler's have fought to be defined as a separate ethnic minority and the majority have been quoted as saying they want to maintain their current way of life "however they want to define that :rolleyes:"

Can't have it both ways, they can't say that they are nomadic, want to live a certain way and then rock up to the Council and demand services etc for wherever they decide to park up.

The Government can be criticized for failing to provide services to travellers, but at what point are they going to contribute to irish society in a meaningful way ?

RoboRat · 20-06-2017 11:08AM

The Government can be criticized for failing to provide services to travellers, but at what point are they going to contribute to irish society in a meaningful way ?

If you want to be a part of society and get all the benefits that come with being a part of society, you also have to abide the rules of said society and contribute. You can't just pick and choose what you feel benefits you and disregard what doesn't.

This goes for everyone and not just travelers. There are plenty more settled people who abuse and drain the system, are anti social and offer nothing to society but hardship for those who contribute.

Wibbs · 20-06-2017 11:08AM

Atticus Jung wrote: »

I think the point is this is a cry for help. This person is only too aware of the failings of the traveling community and doesn't need to list them off because everyone else is all to willing. The onus needs to be on us to make more effort to understand and help integrate the traveling community into Irish values and society while respecting and honoring the traveling community culture. If we don't do something about it nothing will ever change.

I love how this is always framed by some as a one way street. That "we" the rest of Irish society must "understand" and help integrate them on their terms. How much more can our society do to support their lifestyle choice? How many more handouts and blind eyes does it take? Here's a thought; maybe many of them don't want to integrate? After all integrating would mean taking responsibility and could cost them too many of the "freedoms" they have now.

VinLieger · 20-06-2017 11:55AM

Atticus Jung wrote: »

I think the point is this is a cry for help. This person is only too aware of the failings of the traveling community and doesn't need to list them off because everyone else is all to willing. The onus needs to be on us to make more effort to understand and help integrate the traveling community into Irish values and society while respecting and honoring the traveling community culture. If we don't do something about it nothing will ever change.

Please point to even one part of the article where they accept the failings of the traveling community.

Can you clarify how any of the below statistics are due to discrimination by the settled community

Our life expectancy is 61 years old. Our suicide rate is seven times higher than the general population. 50% of travellers die before their 39th birthday. 10% of traveller children die before the age of two, compared to just 1% of the general population. 70% of us die before our 59th birthday.Only 3% of us live passed the age of 65. Less than 13% of us finish secondary school compared to 93% of the general population. Less than 1% of us go on to third level education, and more than 70% of traveller children live in families where the mother has no formal education at all.

ED E · 20-06-2017 11:58AM

Quoting the entire piece isn't really fair on medium.com.

GerryDerpy · 20-06-2017 12:11PM

They need to look in the mirror and stop assuming society has some grand conspiracy to put them down. Society hates when people are cnuts. A lot of travellers act the cnut. It is that simple.

You can act the Lefty Liberal all you want, but if you don't show prejudice towards travellers but I do, then the probability is that you will be robbed/scammed and I won't.

Eevs98 · 20-06-2017 12:39PM

Swanner wrote: »

See i'm just not buying your estimate of 7%.

My own experience and that of so many others posting here would be that it's more likely to be the other way round.. (93% are involved in crime)

And prison numbers are meaningless.. Travellers act with impunity. They have no fear of the Gardai or the court system and rarely get prosecuted for their crimes. On the contrary, most of them seem to do very well out of it.

It's not my estimate, it's a figure reached by the TPI (traveller prisoner initiative), after years of comprehensive research and studies. So your anecdotal claims don't really stand up in the face of that to be honest. Also all the figures show that travellers are actually more likely to be sentenced for a crime than a settled person, so the whole impunity thing doesn't really wash with the facts either.

sashafierce · 20-06-2017 12:58PM

This post has been deleted.

OldNotWIse · 20-06-2017 01:08PM

Well written but completely one sided. I don't know anyone who dislikes travelers simply because they are travelers, but the majority of people I know (myself included) are wary because 100% of our interactions with the ones we have come across have been negative. That is not a generalization, it is a statement of fact.

And of course there is the elephant in the room that is, where do they derive their income from? But you can't ask that without the PC brigade branding you a racist.

The Bishop Basher · 20-06-2017 01:22PM

Eevs98 wrote: »

It's not my estimate, it's a figure reached by the TPI (traveller prisoner initiative), after years of comprehensive research and studies.

It's still nothing more then a guess.. and a wildly inaccurate one according to the vast majority of posts on this thread..

Eevs98 wrote: »

So your anecdotal claims don't really stand up in the face of that to be honest.

I would agree. Mine alone probably don't but there's 8 pages of other anecdotes here that say otherwise..

Are you saying we all have it wrong ?

SEPT 23 1989 · 20-06-2017 01:34PM

they burnt their bridges long ago with 95% of people in this country the other 5% make a living in the courts from them or never have any dealings with them apart from when they are on their best behavior looking for more handouts

20-06-2017 01:39PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

they burnt their bridges long ago with 95% of people in this country the other 5% make a living in the courts from them or never have any dealings with them apart from when they are on their best behavior looking for more handouts

How did a 4 year old excited about going to a party and ending up being sent home to a crying mother "burn her bridges"? I would have thought if any bridge burning was signalled in the OP, it came from one section of the community.

Interesting article about Travellers by a Traveller

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