Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

We should just concentrate on who we have and who is available to bring in. We haven't been blessed at u21 or minor the last few years but we still won a minor three years ago and got bet in minor all ireland too.
We have had serious success at college level.
Billy ryan, richie leahy, James maher, chris bolger, James cleere, conor delaney and more.
These are all guys that will make the transition.
Give them a chance.
What will everyone be saying when we reach the quarter final and have gained momentum. Drive on lads. Don't wait for next year. Yere good enough this year if the panel us structured correctly.

Billy Ryan been called in to Senior Training osinceWednesday.............you would have to assume if performs well this week and next week in training then himself and Donnelly might come in to the reckoning. I have a feeling there going to be another shake up of the team no matter who we draw in the qualifiers. That is one thing I think has contributed to our relative poor showing this year. 
There has been a serious lack of  a settled team and near impossible to see where management view their preferred playing position for each player. I have always been of the view that we use the league as stepping stone to unleash new players and get a championship 15 primed and ready for action. In hindsight I think we did give some young players good exposure this year but management haven't a notion as to what their strongest 15 is.......

Did anyone else spot this piece from John Fogarty in the examiner yesterday re sweepers

"Hiding behind semantics

Our suggestion in reports from Saturday’s Leinster semi-final that Conor Fogarty was acting as a sweeper was met with derision from a number of Kilkenny supporters on social media. Fogarty, it was claimed, was an ‘extra defender’ or a ‘spare defender’, not a sweeper. Just like ‘hard work’ is not ‘a system’ then? Just like how the likes of Tommy Walsh and JJ Delaney did it all on their own when Kilkenny’s wing-forwards made life so easy for their wing-backs by doubling up on the wing-backs’ markers for the opposition’s puck-outs? Right."

So hard work is a system!
Tommy Walsh and JJ Delaney had life so easy by wing forwards doubling up on their men for puck outs!

God help us!!

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Do you ever listen to yourself?

The question I'd ask you is, do you ever listen to yourself. Communist joe Stalin we have here. There shall be only your opinion is it? Get a grip of yourself, and open your mind. No everyone thinks your way.
O'Shea not a starting player in an all Ireland.
Robert Lennon - none as a starting player in an all Ireland final, did he ever play in a final winning side.
Fogarty has two as a starting player.
Lester has none as a starting player, did he even come on in a game.
Aylward has one medal
Paddy deegan has none, not a starting player in an all Ireland
Bolger has none
Richie Reid has none
Kevin Kelly has none as a starting player, did he ever win a medal where he played?
Blanchfield - none again.
Joey Holden has two, one as a starting player, one as a sub in the replay.

Not exactly an we'll experienced winning side.

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

I'm sure they've got nothing compared to your record. Best of luck with abusing them in the street anyway, keep doing your part.

You keep trying to side track from the point made earlier regarding the experience level of the players that were on the pitch, and abusing those who make points you don't agree with. The whole idea of this forum is different opinions, but I see that presents a challenge for you. I shall expect another retort side tracking again from the point being made.

Dionysis wrote: »

You keep trying to side track from the point made earlier regarding the experience level of the players that were on the pitch, and abusing those who make points you don't agree with. The whole idea of this forum is different opinions, but I see that presents a challenge for you. I shall expect another retort side tracking again from the point being made.

I'm going to ignore the stuff about differing opinions and the idea that I abuse people who make points I disagree with. I'll let other users decide whether they think that's fair criticism.

But what is the point made earlier regarding the experience level of the players that were on the pitch?

The post you wrote that I was replying to said this:
"I'll follow the team no matter what, however you say what this team have given us.....allowing that of those that were playing.... only a few of the them have more than one all-Ireland medal as a player or any at all, I'd say they haven't done as much as you would think.

That team you talk about are gone, the majority of this team are new."

Your point *seems* to be that the players that are there now haven't given us anything that we need to be particularly grateful for (you were disagreeing with dubcat who had said we should be). To back up that point you note that only a few of them have more than one All-Ireland medal as player! I mean, can you see why that is a disingenuous thing to say? In Wexford they've made gods for 20 years out of a team with one All-Ireland. But a team where most of the players have at least one, but "only a few have more than one" is not good enough for you, and as far as your concerned they "haven't done as much as you would think".

Now you can say I'm Joseph Stalin (wtf?) or whatever, but those are your words. Coupled with your argument that these players should be approached in the street by people and told how bad they are, it all just paints a picture of total entitlement on your part. I'm pretty sure dubcat's point was that these players put in absolutely massive effort to achieve what they have achieved (and one All Ireland is a massive achievement), and to even get where they are requires a level of talent and commitment most of us can only dream of. I know expectations in Kilkenny are high, but the whole tone of your posts seems to be that these players aren't meeting your demands, that somehow you, and we, deserve better.

We're all disappointed with the result last week, but we don't DESERVE anything whatsoever, we can hope for better, we can row in ourselves in whatever capacity to help in the longer term. But I just don't see how complaining that they haven't done anything for me lately, and telling them off in the streets (as though they have the slightest respect for the opinion of random strangers in the street, or as if they themselves were happy enough to have lost) contributes anything positive whatsoever.

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

I'm going to ignore the stuff about differing opinions and the idea that I abuse people who make points I disagree with. I'll let other users decide whether they think that's fair criticism.

But what is the point made earlier regarding the experience level of the players that were on the pitch?

The post you wrote that I was replying to said this:
"I'll follow the team no matter what, however you say what this team have given us.....allowing that of those that were playing.... only a few of the them have more than one all-Ireland medal as a player or any at all, I'd say they haven't done as much as you would think.

That team you talk about are gone, the majority of this team are new."



Your point *seems* to be that the players that are there now haven't given us anything that we need to be particularly grateful for (you were disagreeing with dubcat who had said we should be). To back up that point you note that only a few of them have more than one All-Ireland medal as player! I mean, can you see why that is a disingenuous thing to say? In Wexford they've made gods for 20 years out of a team with one All-Ireland. But a team where most of the players have at least one, but "only a few have more than one" is not good enough for you, and as far as your concerned they "haven't done as much as you would think".

Now you can say I'm Joseph Stalin (wtf?) or whatever, but those are your words. Coupled with your argument that these players should be approached in the street by people and told how bad they are, it all just paints a picture of total entitlement on your part. I'm pretty sure dubcat's point was that these players put in absolutely massive effort to achieve what they have achieved (and one All Ireland is a massive achievement), and to even get where they are requires a level of talent and commitment most of us can only dream of. I know expectations in Kilkenny are high, but the whole tone of your posts seems to be that these players aren't meeting your demands, that somehow you, and we, deserve better.

We're all disappointed with the result last week, but we don't DESERVE anything whatsoever, we can hope for better, we can row in ourselves in whatever capacity to help in the longer term. But I just don't see how complaining that they haven't done anything for me lately, and telling them off in the streets (as though they have the slightest respect for the opinion of random strangers in the street, or as if they themselves were happy enough to have lost) contributes anything positive whatsoever.

We'll stick to the point so it's easier to understand... paraphrasing....a point was made that this team owe us nothing, or kk owe us nothing. My response was along the vein that this is a new team, not the team of a life time that went before i.e. 06-14, look at there experience/medal haul, a lot of them have won one or less all-irelands. That doesn't put them in a place above commenting on their performance.
And the performance by many of those players who played last weekend was shocking and iit is my opinion that they are not above knowing it, and from what I heard, it pales to what the selectors thought. Going from a place of favourites to win the all-Ireland last year to 8/1 and fifth favourite. That is a shocking fall from grace in 12 months and cannot be explained by Larkin and Jackie retiring, and is definitely worth commenting on. Kk have won a minor in 08, lost one in 09, won it in 10, lost a semi final after a sending off in 13, won the all Ireland in 14, lost the semi due to a lack of composure and a square ball, to Galway in 15, all of which have highlighted that yes, kk are producing underage talent through the development system, but are being cast to the wind after that or are not putting it in at U21 level, which can be seen by their hammering by wexford in 14 and 15, plus a loss to Westmeath in 16. So the players are there, are being created so yes ill comment on why we are not winning by all Ireland's, it is a joke, the hard yards (from 9-18yrs) has already been done.

If Wexford are happy with that level of success/ performance good for them, and if that's the case could explain in some way why kk have 36 all-irelands and Wexford have 6. I doubt they would be though. As with everyone else my comments are not above commenting on but will be made, the thread is about kk hurling so I'll stick to their exploits and not comment on my own as is your want.
Back to the point, this team is made up of a lot of players that have not distinguished themselves such that they are above our criticism, and if you were there last Saturday night, and seen Codys disgust/dismay at his players (lack of honesty of effort; genuineness and will to give their all) in front of you, you'd think the same.

Charlie69 wrote:

Did you really think the players were lacking in honesty of effort or the will to give their all???... or do you think they might just have been beaten by a better team???

Exactly, sometimes teams have a bad day, things go wrong, etc and your beaten. That's it


Looking in on this thread the reaction is totally Ott. Lads looking for people to abuse players on the street. Wtf!

You wouldn't even read it on the Waterford thread. And that says a lot!

Dionysis wrote:

Firstly nobody suggested abusing players on the street, unless you are. Secondly, do you think that having talented talented players will win you 8 all irelands in 10 years. Ahh no, it certainly won't. More than anything it takes commitment and obsessive drive and work rate which is a not just a preserve of the talented player. The KK team that won the all Ireland in 2015 was the worst team to win it talent wise, in his tenure and Loughnane was right ehrn he said that they were functional. However what they also were was absolutely committed. That commitment coupled with the structure that Cody brings won that all Ireland. The team was like the Man Utd team at the end of the Ferguson era, winning on commitment and honesty of effort.

Dionysis wrote:

Cody went bizerk on the sideline at the Wexford game and was livid with his players. Was it a bad day..... did they have the same bad day against Clare and Waterford in the league, against Wexford in the league, and again Wexford in the championship? Did they what? Do you honestly think that this team had a bad day against Wexford ? All of the ex county players especially Larkin have commented on the lack of effort/commitment of the players during the game and even before it. Do you have an issue with Larkin?

That's a legendary rant. Wow!

The White Feather wrote: »

Sorry now but you were the one who suggested it!

I'm sure you were just frustrated about the result though as I don't think anyone would really go ahead and do it.We all get annoyed with a loss

Please show where I said 'abuse players' players or even said 'abuse' or are they your words?

John Power somewhat surprisingly dropped himself off the panel during the week. He wasn't everybody's cup of tea and it certainly didn't help the constant comparisons with the outrageously talented brother Richie but John was a lad who always gave it 100% for kk and I will be forever grateful for what he done in the replay final in 2014!! He still relatively young so perhaps if he can go back to club and find some form and get the enjoyment back into his hurling then there no reason why he can't wear the black dress amber again down the line.No matter what happens all the best to him and thanks

Posters are regularly abused on this site. That is a fact. Some people cannot make a point without dishing out personal abuse. Ignore it of course is the right response.

WARNING: Incredibly long and rambling post, Sorry!!

For me there are a few things that contributed to last Saturdays result. I want to say first though that Wexford were fully deserving of their win and if we replayed the match in our current state the result would likely have been the same or worse for us. I wish Wexford the best and hope they win some silverware this year because Davy's way of training and the style of play that he demands has so far been proven to be less and less successful the more years players play under it.

Back to us I think there are two main elements to why we lost and in the manner we did, one is the management this year and the others is the players obviously.

I don't think the management gave this group a fair chance of winning last Saturday. Yes in years gone by when Cody had a team packed with legends, leaders and experience he could name a different team most days and they probably would have gone out and won. We don't have those players anymore and wishing them back is not going to happen. Comparing most of our current players to those guys is unfair and unrealistic. If Cody had a more settled team with these lads having the chance to get used to those playing around them, I believe we would have seen a more cohesive performance and one that could have won the game. Instead we saw talented players playing like a bunch of individuals because they weren't used to playing with those around them particularly in defence.
The way I see it Cody has 3 issues.
1 He doesn't know his best team
2 He has lost fate in some players
3 He has no on-field leaders
1. I tackled this above he's chopping and changing the team and lads can't get used to their teammates, hence you see simple passes going astray. When a lad is under pressure and he catches a glimse of a teammate moving off him but he's not used that lads movement and he put's it where he would be but thats not where his teammate goes and a ball is lost or makes possession very hard to secure.
2 Since the AI last year Cody seems to have lost fate in a lot of our defensive players in particular. Yes we got destroyed in the AI in the backs but I don't think it can all be placed on the FB line or even the players. Either way Joey, Shane and Joyce have been given very little time this year maybe their confidence is shot and their not doing it in training I don't know but I was talking to one of the panel who is amazed Joey isn't been given a run even if it's in the corner, as he's hurling well.
3 The great thing for Cody from 06 to 15 was he always had plenty of players who were leaders. The guys who should be the leaders now don't seem to be doing it or doing it enough. Michael Fennelly, Eoin Murphy and Richie Hogan to a lesser extent are the leaders from what I've seen, we need more than that. Guys like Paul Murphy, Kieran Joyce, Cillian Buckley, Conor Fogarty, Padraig Walsh, TJ Reid, Colin Fennelly and Walter Walsh should all be leaders. They should not be afraid to make a change on the field or hold your team mates to account and order them to do what needs to be done to win. These guys have had JJ, Tommy, Henry, Jackie, Larks, Hogie etc bossing them around for years. It's time they woke up and realised they are the experienced guys who need to drive on the rest and each other. One of Codys greatest achievements was he was always able to turn guys into leaders or more accurately draw that innate ability out of them. He did this by making guys mentally tough usually by dropping them after a poor display a guy could spend a month in the wilderness or he could spend a couple of years out there. invariably when that guy came back in, he came back because he had hardened mentally and forced the door back open for himself. Plenty of skillful hurlers never came back and fell by the wayside, if you didn't have the drive and that mental toughness you weren't Kilkenny material in Codys eyes.

I'm almost definitely giving Cody to much credit here, but is he currently playing lads all over the place and not playing lads you'd expect, to challenge them and see will they bounce back and become the new leaders? I'm not sure but as another poster suggested we're in a 2004-05 type situation and this doesn't mean Cody and management don't want to win and aren't trying for the AI but are they also testing some of the players to try and see who has the mettle, while building and knowing we might have a tough time this year and next.

There is no doubt Cody was frustrated on Saturday show me any Kilkenny hurling man who wasn't but a lot of it was his own doing.

The one thing I can't justify and get my head around is why he delayed naming the team so long it made us look weak like we weren't sure what team to play against Wexford.

I don't think anyone here has rated the players from Saturday so here's my attempt.

Eoin Murphy- 7 -good overall would like to see him vary his puckouts a bit more though.
Paul Murphy- 5 -not the Paul Murphy we all know and love, touch was terrible, fielding was worse and didn't impact the game the way he can. Think his confidence has taken a wallop since the AI, playing him CB for the league I don't think helped his confidence.
Kieran Joyce- 7 -I thought did ok considering what was around him think he should stay at FB
Conor O'Shea- 4 -A guy i know can hurl and hurl well but his touch was terrible and was in the wrong position so many times a terrible day at the office
Conor Fogarty- 6 -Did ok without lighting it up was solid but not dominating as a spare man should
Cillian Buckley- 8 -as good as he could be with how the game went, would like to see him stay at CB
Robbie Lennon- 6 -I don't think he was as bad as some have said on here but he was far from spectacular and dominant he doesn't appear to have enough pace either.
Lester Ryan- 7 -worked hard and got a few points but could have been better
Paddy Deegan- 6 -I don't think he is a midfielder, I much prefer him on the HB line preferably at 7, he was very in and out of the game. The one thing he gives in spades though is effort.
Richie Hogan- 5 -not even a pale shadow of the Richie we know. If he was injured he shouldn't have played, never really got into the game. I know he gave up the teaching last year and tried his hand at a project which I don't think worked out for him unfortunately. I wonder if that is playing on his mind.
TJ Reid- 8 -was good in open play and with a more settled attack could have caused real damage excellent penalties.
P Walsh- 5 -not ready from what we saw and shouldn't have been playing but to haul him off, just after he started getting into the game for me was unfair.
Walter Walsh- 4 -worst I've seen him play for Kilkenny did not look interested and I hope as one poster said he was carrying an injury was true because if not I'd drop him to the bench.
Colin Fennelly- 8 -was excellent all day when the ball went into him was a real pain in the FB's ar** and was unlucky not to get more scores/frees
Ger Aylward- 6 -was playing well when he was playing but was too involved in off the ball and late stuff. Was unfortunate with his shots but he'll improve, just needs to calm down a bit.
Liam Blanchfield- 5 -was very ineffectual you would hardly know he came on.
Chris Bolger- 6 -tried hard and was unlucky not to get two goals a bit more composure next time and they'll be in the net.
Kevin Kelly- 5 -tried hard but ultimately ineffective
Richie Reid- -not on long enough to rate but how Hogan stayed on to the 68 minute I don't know. definitely a strange decision to throw him in ahead of Jonjo.

My team for the next day assuming all fit and based on what I've seen so far
E Murphy
P Murphy K Joyce J Holden/C Delaney
P Walsh C Buckley J Cleere
M Fennelly C Fogarty
R Hogan TJ Reid R Leahy
G Ayward C Fennelly C Bolger