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2017 Public Sector Pay Deal

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    #32
    jamesthepeach
    Registered Users Posts: 992 ✭✭✭jamesthepeach


    Too many people think everyone paid more than them or with better conditions is overpaid.

    Someone is always jealous of someone else.
    That will never change.

    I believee everyone should strive to get the best deal for themselves. None of this pulling everyone else down sh1te thats endemic in Ireland.


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    #33
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Augeo wrote: »
    HSE might be an outlier.
    Folks are queuing up to get into AGS for example :)
    Country is awash with, part time & potential teachers :)

    The HSE might be an outlier??? It's the health service, it's one of the fundamental agencies of the state......

    HSE struggling to recruit nurses

    ......and sure there are lots of teachers, just not the right kind of teacher

    Teacher shortage worsens for Stem subjects

    ......funny thing is one of my kids is studying to be a maths & science teacher (a friend who is a school principal encouraged him)......and a lot of people suggest he's "wasting" his abilities......there are better paying and more financially rewarding jobs for science grads which is why a lot of our STEM teaching is done by people without the requisite specialist quals......hardly surprising given the pay on offer.


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    #34
    red ears
    Closed Accounts Posts: 945 ✭✭✭red ears


    Jawgap wrote: »
    The HSE might be an outlier??? It's the health service, it's one of the fundamental agencies of the state......

    HSE struggling to recruit nurses

    ......and sure there are lots of teachers, just not the right kind of teacher

    Teacher shortage worsens for Stem subjects

    ......funny thing is one of my kids is studying to be a maths & science teacher (a friend who is a school principal encouraged him)......and a lot of people suggest he's "wasting" his abilities......there are better paying and more financially rewarding jobs for science grads which is why a lot of our STEM teaching is done by people without the requisite specialist quals......hardly surprising given the pay on offer.

    They have recently changed the length of time it takes to do the post-grad teaching qualification from one year to two years. So it will take 5 to 6 years to become a teacher now.


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    #35
    jamesthepeach
    Registered Users Posts: 992 ✭✭✭jamesthepeach


    red ears wrote: »
    They have recently changed the length of time it takes to do the post-grad teaching qualification from one year to two years. So it will take 5 to 6 years to become a teacher now.

    And everyone will have them for the rest of their life :)
    Students for keeping them in school and adults will hate them for choosing a career with a decent pension and holidays because they never chose it.
    The people who take the short term view always hate those who benefit from taking the long term view.

    I was contracting for years and wouldn't take the full time job with the benefits package and promotions. I went for the money rather than the career, and stuck 50% of it into pension funds and got slagged off for it. Now I'm retiring. The people who slagged me off for the last 20 years are now asking me for my advice on retiring early. The very same people who told me I wasn't looking out for my future before. But.all they had to do was open their eyes and look at their own situations instead of being busy judging me for planning ahead.

    I have no time for people who complain about what other people get in their jobs. You choose your own career path. If it's not working out you modify it. They just seem to want to whinge instead


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    #36
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    jamesthepeach wrote: »
    Too many people think everyone paid more than them or with better conditions is overpaid.

    Someone is always jealous of someone else.
    That will never change.

    I believee everyone should strive to get the best deal for themselves. None of this pulling everyone else down sh1te thats endemic in Ireland.


    Thats easy to say James when you have a large % of the population not being able to afford a pension and having to shell out a large amount in tax to cover the cohort that is current and future public sector workers. Why not even the playing feild if the gov take money off someone for a pension why not let them put it into their own and let the public sector worker supply the full cost of their pension. People are not jealous they are outraged at the 2-tier system that exists ..


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    #37
    jamesthepeach
    Registered Users Posts: 992 ✭✭✭jamesthepeach


    fliball123 wrote: »
    Thats easy to say James when you have a large % of the population not being able to afford a pension and having to shell out a large amount in tax to cover the cohort that is current and future public sector workers. Why not even the playing feild if the gov take money off someone for a pension why not let them put it into their own and let the public sector worker supply the full cost of their pension. People are not jealous they are outraged at the 2-tier system that exists ..

    Everyone gets a pension.

    People who started a job 20 or 30 years ago that promised them a pension as part of the renumeration do not owe the rest of us anything.
    We all made our choices. You can't go back now and say, my job doesn't give me a pension, take theirs off them or charge them for it. Kind of makes a mockery of someone giving their lives to their particular job.

    I worked for different companies that have 2%, 5% and 10% into pensions. The people who worked in the ones that have 2% shouldn't be complaining that by working somewhere else another person got 10%. I got 0% in those companies but that was my choice to structure my employment the way I did.


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    #38
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    fliball123 wrote: »
    Thats easy to say James when you have a large % of the population not being able to afford a pension and having to shell out a large amount in tax to cover the cohort that is current and future public sector workers. Why not even the playing feild if the gov take money off someone for a pension why not let them put it into their own and let the public sector worker supply the full cost of their pension. People are not jealous they are outraged at the 2-tier system that exists ..

    I tried this. I would love to be able to take my pension contributions and invest them privately - the fact is my private pension pot (at the moment) will yield a similar level of benefits to my PS pension but my PS pension is based on 2 years longer service!!

    Bit like James, I started my pot early - if I hadn't have got divorced I'd be set fair for going early :D

    The main reason people have problems generating a pension pot in Ireland, imo, is because they don't start early enough. Everyone (or certainly a huge majority) is obsessed with saving to get married and get a house......if that much dedication was put into saving for a pension they'd be a lot better off.


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    #39
    red ears
    Closed Accounts Posts: 945 ✭✭✭red ears


    fliball123 wrote: »
    Thats easy to say James when you have a large % of the population not being able to afford a pension and having to shell out a large amount in tax to cover the cohort that is current and future public sector workers. Why not even the playing feild if the gov take money off someone for a pension why not let them put it into their own and let the public sector worker supply the full cost of their pension. People are not jealous they are outraged at the 2-tier system that exists ..

    That's not going to happen. Show me a public worker anywhere in the western world that has to pay a private pension only. I've not researched it so there may well be examples of that. But i'd wager the vast majority have a public scheme. You have been focusing heavily on the Public Service for 8 years now. Surely you are an expert on these matters at this stage.


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    #40
    jamesthepeach
    Registered Users Posts: 992 ✭✭✭jamesthepeach


    red ears wrote: »
    That's not going to happen. Show me a public worker anywhere in the western world that has to pay a private pension only. I've not researched it so there may well be examples of that. But i'd wager the vast majority have a public scheme. You have been focusing heavily on the Public Service for 8 years now. Surely you are an expert on these matters at this stage.


    As a matter of fact every worker in the country is on publicly funded pension scheme.

    It's up to them all of they want to pay extra to top it up, or to choose an employer who will add to it for them based on how the perceive the value of that top up.

    If I wanted a pension of half my final salary is have joined the public sector. I wanted more and faster, so I didnt, I made my choices based on what I wanted, right from the beginning of my working life.


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    #41
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    jamesthepeach wrote: »
    Everyone gets a pension.

    People who started a job 20 or 30 years ago that promised them a pension as part of the renumeration do not owe the rest of us anything.
    We all made our choices. You can't go back now and say, my job doesn't give me a pension, take theirs off them or charge them for it. Kind of makes a mockery of someone giving their lives to their particular job.

    I worked for different companies that have 2%, 5% and 10% into pensions. The people who worked in the ones that have 2% shouldn't be complaining that by working somewhere else another person got 10%. I got 0% in those companies but that was my choice to structure my employment the way I did.

    Of course you can when people cant afford their own pension its an absolute disgrace that they are asked to pay for other peoples. There are few if any companies giving the type of pension that is going on in the public sector any that are you can be damn sure they are not over 200billion in debt and running a deficit


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    #42
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,480 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    red ears wrote: »
    fliball123 wrote: »
    Thats easy to say James when you have a large % of the population not being able to afford a pension and having to shell out a large amount in tax to cover the cohort that is current and future public sector workers. Why not even the playing feild if the gov take money off someone for a pension why not let them put it into their own and let the public sector worker supply the full cost of their pension. People are not jealous they are outraged at the 2-tier system that exists ..

    That's not going to happen. Show me a public worker anywhere in the western world that has to pay a private pension only. I've not researched it so there may well be examples of that. But i'd wager the vast majority have a public scheme. You have been focusing heavily on the Public Service for 8 years now. Surely you are an expert on these matters at this stage.
    NZ KiwiSaver is the same. Government job or not


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    #43
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,302 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    fliball123 wrote: »
    Thats easy to say James when you have a large % of the population not being able to afford a pension and having to shell out a large amount in tax to cover the cohort that is current and future public sector workers. Why not even the playing feild if the gov take money off someone for a pension why not let them put it into their own and let the public sector worker supply the full cost of their pension. People are not jealous they are outraged at the 2-tier system that exists ..

    Do they not pay their PRSI?


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    #44
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,302 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    fliball123 wrote: »
    Of course you can when people cant afford their own pension its an absolute disgrace that they are asked to pay for other peoples. There are few if any companies giving the type of pension that is going on in the public sector any that are you can be damn sure they are not over 200billion in debt and running a deficit


    Are you saying that banks and insurance companies should reduce their prices for those who don't have pensions so that the customers don't have to pay for the pensions of the employees of the banks and insurance companies?


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    #45
    jamesthepeach
    Registered Users Posts: 992 ✭✭✭jamesthepeach


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Do they not pay their PRSI?

    Most people's prsi isnt enough to fund a pension of the size they get.

    Oh, look where we are :)


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    #46
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Are you saying that banks and insurance companies should reduce their prices for those who don't have pensions so that the customers don't have to pay for the pensions of the employees of the banks and insurance companies?

    I am simply saying it is immoral to ask the majority (where over 90% of them) cannot afford to pay for their own pension yet they are asked to cover the public sector, if you look at a lot of the pension schemes in the banks now they are being wound down.


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    #47
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    jamesthepeach wrote: »
    Everyone gets a pension.

    People who started a job 20 or 30 years ago that promised them a pension as part of the renumeration do not owe the rest of us anything.
    We all made our choices. You can't go back now and say, my job doesn't give me a pension, take theirs off them or charge them for it. Kind of makes a mockery of someone giving their lives to their particular job.

    I worked for different companies that have 2%, 5% and 10% into pensions. The people who worked in the ones that have 2% shouldn't be complaining that by working somewhere else another person got 10%. I got 0% in those companies but that was my choice to structure my employment the way I did.

    Well when i started working I was told I would not be raped in taxes..things change, I now have to pay an odious tax called the USC which was supposed to be a temporary tax. Why should I have my terms and conditions cut and yours remain in place?


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    #48
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Jawgap wrote: »
    I tried this. I would love to be able to take my pension contributions and invest them privately - the fact is my private pension pot (at the moment) will yield a similar level of benefits to my PS pension but my PS pension is based on 2 years longer service!!

    Bit like James, I started my pot early - if I hadn't have got divorced I'd be set fair for going early :D

    The main reason people have problems generating a pension pot in Ireland, imo, is because they don't start early enough. Everyone (or certainly a huge majority) is obsessed with saving to get married and get a house......if that much dedication was put into saving for a pension they'd be a lot better off.

    Is your pension arrangement still available?


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    #49
    jamesthepeach
    Registered Users Posts: 992 ✭✭✭jamesthepeach


    fliball123 wrote: »
    Well when i started working I was told I would not be raped in taxes..things change, I now have to pay an odious tax called the USC which was supposed to be a temporary tax. Why should I have my terms and conditions cut and yours remain in place?

    You aren't making any sense. And you are just getting worse. Serious jealousy of others who made good life decisions is the only thing I'm getting from your posts.


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    #50
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    fliball123 wrote: »
    Is your pension arrangement still available?

    To who? Me?

    If re-joined the PS I don't think I could re-start my contributions - I'd prefer to get the money out and make my own arrangements.


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    #51
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    jamesthepeach wrote: »
    You aren't making any sense. And you are just getting worse. Serious jealousy of others who made good life decisions is the only thing I'm getting from your posts.

    It's funny, I returned to Ireland in early 00s and was slagged off royally for taking a PS job......people telling me it was a waste of my abilities.......that I'd make a lot more in the private sector (true)......that I'd never be able to get that buy-to-let apartment etc etc etc.

    After I joined I sat on interview panels where people, on more than one occasion, turned their noses up at the starting salaries - and, in one case, laughed when we told them. I had to replace staff who left without giving notice, sometimes only weeks and even days (and again, in one case, hours) after starting because they got more lucrative job offers......

    Then I got criticised as a public servant for being a public servant.....apparently I went from wasting my talents for pittance to being an over-paid wastrel.....all while suffering a 30% drop in after tax income, and while watching about one third of my colleagues being forced to give up their jobs without any form of redundancy pay (I just laugh at the ignorance of people who say there is no redundancy in the PS.......as if redundancy is the only way to reduce headcount :rolleyes:)

    ......and to be honest, I liked working in the PS but there comes a point where economics has to trump emotion, so I hopped out again. And to be honest I've yet to see anything in this deal or anywhere that makes me question the wisdom of that decision.


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    #52
    Vizzy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,529 ✭✭✭Vizzy


    fliball123 wrote: »
    Well when i started working I was told I would not be raped in taxes..things change, I now have to pay an odious tax called the USC which was supposed to be a temporary tax. Why should I have my terms and conditions cut and yours remain in place?

    And public servants terms and conditions haven't changed ?

    Where can I sign up !!


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    #53
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    jamesthepeach wrote: »
    ............ You choose your own career path. If it's not working out you modify it. They just seem to want to whinge instead

    But in the public service the majority don't want to modify their path, they just go on strike or threaten to do so when their package is deemed not satisfactory.


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    #54
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,258 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Jawgap wrote: »
    The main reason people have problems generating a pension pot in Ireland, imo, is because they don't start early enough. Everyone (or certainly a huge majority) is obsessed with saving to get married and get a house spending most of their 20s and early 30s getting locked at every opportunity......if that much dedication was put into saving for a pension they'd be a lot better off.

    Fyp ;)

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #55
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,258 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    fliball123 wrote: »
    Well when i started working I was told I would not be raped in taxes..things change, I now have to pay an odious tax called the USC which was supposed to be a temporary tax. Why should I have my terms and conditions cut and yours remain in place?

    When was that? 30 years ago the top rate of PAYE was 65%, plus PRSI, plus levies. The norm in Ireland ever since the foundation of the state was that PAYE workers got robbed in tax, the period of lower taxes didn't last that long and there's a particular political party you should be directing your anger at.

    Guess what, public sector employees pay PAYE, PRSI and USC at exactly the same rates private sector workers do.

    Most private sector workers have had no cuts to their T&Cs, and fair play to them. If you're not happy with your employer then try another one - an option not open to many public sector workers.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #56
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    ............... If you're not happy with your employer then try another one - an option not open to many public sector workers.

    That option is open to all COs and EOs as well as teachers, nurses etc to a lesser degree.

    The only public sector workers finding a new employer isn't open to would be the AGS if they don't want to actually change what they do for a living.

    But COs and EOs are doing work that's transerrable skill wise to the public sector. Wages would be about €10 hour for CO type work though and a bit more for EOs.


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    #57
    Lu Tze
    Registered Users Posts: 3,495 ✭✭✭Lu Tze


    Jawgap wrote: »
    It's funny, I returned to Ireland in early 00s and was slagged off royally for taking a PS job......people telling me it was a waste of my abilities.......that I'd make a lot more in the private sector (true)......that I'd never be able to get that buy-to-let apartment etc etc etc.

    After I joined I sat on interview panels where people, on more than one occasion, turned their noses up at the starting salaries - and, in one case, laughed when we told them. I had to replace staff who left without giving notice, sometimes only weeks and even days (and again, in one case, hours) after starting because they got more lucrative job offers......

    Then I got criticised as a public servant for being a public servant.....apparently I went from wasting my talents for pittance to being an over-paid wastrel.....all while suffering a 30% drop in after tax income, and while watching about one third of my colleagues being forced to give up their jobs without any form of redundancy pay (I just laugh at the ignorance of people who say there is no redundancy in the PS.......as if redundancy is the only way to reduce headcount :rolleyes:)

    ......and to be honest, I liked working in the PS but there comes a point where economics has to trump emotion, so I hopped out again. And to be honest I've yet to see anything in this deal or anywhere that makes me question the wisdom of that decision.

    You can top a panel in the public sector, but if you haven't worked in the public sector before, you start at the bottom of the pay scale. So you may place higher that somebody applying from within the public sector, but they will be offered a salary above what they are on presently, quite often higher than the higher placed external candidate.


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    #58
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Augeo wrote: »
    That option is open to all COs and EOs as well as teachers, nurses etc to a lesser degree.

    The only public sector workers finding a new employer isn't open to would be the AGS if they don't want to actually change what they do for a living.

    But COs and EOs are doing work that's transerrable skill wise to the public sector. Wages would be about €10 hour for CO type work though and a bit more for EOs.

    Of course it is......that's why private schools and private hospitals (especially those abroad) cream off anyone with any kind of ability.

    People complain about PS rates of pay and compare them to pay available in Ireland.....it's the wrong comparison. A young teacher, nurse, doctor, engineer and even someone interested in policing or soldiering looks not just at the money available here in various jobs in the workforce but also the money available elsewhere for their preferred job.

    My son is barely two years into his degree and he's already making noises about going to the UK - and when you see the salaries and supports available there for early career teachers, I wouldn't blame him. The net effect is the Irish state have paid for his education and then just when we can expect to get return on it the salaries encourage him (and a lot of his contemporaries to go elsewhere).......we 'save' on the salary but at what cost?

    Likewise, my replacement when I left the PS was someone with barely 5 years post-graduate experience - the public purse "saved" on the salary but the cost of his learning on the job has completely swamped any actual saving .


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    #59
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,302 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    fliball123 wrote: »
    I am simply saying it is immoral to ask the majority (where over 90% of them) cannot afford to pay for their own pension yet they are asked to cover the public sector, if you look at a lot of the pension schemes in the banks now they are being wound down.

    But we are all being asked to pay to cover the pensions of the employees of the bank, surely that's even more immoral as at least the State will give you a non-contributory pension if you were foolish enough not to provide for your own?


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    #60
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,302 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    fliball123 wrote: »
    Well when i started working I was told I would not be raped in taxes..things change, I now have to pay an odious tax called the USC which was supposed to be a temporary tax. Why should I have my terms and conditions cut and yours remain in place?

    What are you on about? Do you think that public servants don't pay the odious tax called the USC which was supposed to be a temporary tax?

    When the recession hit, public servants suffered the same tax increases and USC as you, but they also got hit with pay cuts up to 20% and the pension-related pay deduction, a tax every bit as odious as the USC.


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    #61
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Of course it is......that's why private schools and private hospitals (especially those abroad) cream off anyone with any kind of ability..............

    ......... but the folks left in the PS seem to want pay on a par to what the folks in the private sector get. Benchmarking in the boom and etc etc and now they want pay restored to that level.


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