Opposite sex using opposite bathrooms in Ireland..

Persephone kindness wrote: »

seeing blood in the toilet sometimes.

Iv seen much much worse stuff in the lads toilets than a bit of blood some lads can't flush for some reason

Personally I always go into cubicles to take a piss - how there are lads who can pee and not dab the end of their weiner with a bit of tissue before zipping up has always been totally beyond me.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Personally I always go into cubicles to take a piss - how there are lads who can pee and not dab the end of their weiner with a bit of tissue before zipping up has always been totally beyond me.

It's most likely all in your head. A bit of pee will probably leak out regardless of whether you dab with a tissue or.just give a shake.

jeanjolie wrote: »

I think it's because on could say that it's a bit sexist isn't it. Sure men and women are different, but in our 'liberal progressive Western societies', why should people feel discomfort from seeing a penis in a changing room if they'r a woman?

The mentality at worst assumes that a man in a woman changing room is looking for sexual pleasure and/or is a probably rapist.


Personally, I understand a woman's right to privacy, but isn't it ignorance for example when someone tells you that they don't care about gender, aren't masculine, and not sexually attracted to women to get extremely uncomfortable changing with them unless there is a significant hygiene problem or behavioral problem that makes you really uncomfortable?

My ignorant female cousin fits into this profile.

Just because a person is not masculine and is sexually attracted to men it doesn't mean that they are a woman though. Why is the solution always for women to make space and not for society to change their ridiculously restrictive gender norms?

I chose a female gynaecologist because I feel more comfortable with a woman doing my smear tests. Am I sexist?

jeanjolie wrote: »

I think it's because on could say that it's a bit sexist isn't it. Sure men and women are different, but in our 'liberal progressive Western societies', why should people feel discomfort from seeing a penis in a changing room if they'r a woman?

The mentality at worst assumes that a man in a woman changing room is looking for sexual pleasure and/or is a probably rapist.

Personally, I understand a woman's right to privacy, but isn't it ignorance for example when someone tells you that they don't care about gender, aren't masculine, and not sexually attracted to women to get extremely uncomfortable changing with them unless there is a significant hygiene problem or behavioral problem that makes you really uncomfortable?

My ignorant female cousin fits into this profile.

I wouldn't say your cousin is ignorant because she expects that consideration for her right to privacy be respected? It's not about whether someone is telling women that they have no interest in them, it's simply that those women are uncomfortable, and it could be for any reason. Subjecting women to an interrogation because you feel they are ignorant of your Western liberal standards is the definition of you feeling that your rights should over-ride their right to safety, comfort and privacy.

Wanting to muscle in on women's spaces is the behavioural problem which makes them uncomfortable, and as ceadaoin pointed out earlier, it doesn't stop there -

The Cotton Ceiling – lesbian women must consider trans women as potential sexual partners

Unless women have sex with people who are transgender, now they can be labelled as you did your cousin - ignorant. You must surely be able to understand why women would consider such nonsense unreasonable? And it is women who are disproportionately affected by this, because the same people who are arguing that they should have access to women's spaces, are the same people who use the argument that they feel unsafe in men's spaces.

They don't see themselves as being sexist misandrists or misogynists though. It's as though they allow for different standards for themselves, but they expect nobody else should be allowed to have different standards for themselves. Again, does that sound reasonable to you? Certainly sounds unreasonable to me. I wouldn't feel threatened or intimidated by having to share a space with anyone for any reason, but I posess the social awareness to understand that people exist who do not share my standards, and I respect that. I'm given the same respect in return.

What people who are transgender appear to want to do is demand that other people respect their standards, while they don't have to respect other peoples standards, and I'm pretty sure society generally doesn't work like that, hence the push back.

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Sorry OEJ but transgender people are not some homogeneous group who are collectively 'demanding' anything.

I would have thought it was understood jb I wasn't referring to all people who are transgender. My albeit limited experience of people who are transgender is that they are no different to me or anyone else who just goes about their daily lives doing the ordinary day to day things that people do, and being treated no differently to anyone else.

However, there have always been a tiny minority of people who are transgender, who are not representative of the majority of people who are transgender (I would say the same for any ideology btw - the tiny minority who are not representative of the majority), who are aggressively bullying and intimidating people into submission to their ideology. That's going to cause a backlash against the majority of people who are transgender because of the perception created by a tiny minority of people who are transgender.

Whereas before, most people didn't particularly care and weren't particularly interested, now they become hypervigilant and hyperprotective of their rights which they feel are being trampled on and eroded. It's not the majority of people who are transgender who are at fault at all, the vast majority of people who are transgender are more interested in going about their daily lives and leading by example, showing people that they really aren't any different from them, that they're not some special minority that people need to be wary of, because most people, again, in my albeit limited experience of people who are transgender, have zero interest in the politics of being transgender.

The bathroom issue may seem like a minor one from the perspective of someone who appears as the gender they are. For many transgender women, particularly if they are not able to 'pass' being forced to use the male bathroom is not a mere inconvenience, it is positively dangerous.

I do understand why some people who are transgender would feel that way (and this is in spite of the fact that any of my friends who are transgender have never experienced this, but then I don't inquire of their bathroom habits either, so I can't say it's ever come up), but I do appreciate that my limited experience is not representative of a whole lot, nor do I simply take at face value the testimony of others who would only again be a very small minority of people who are transgender, and so they would not be representative of the majority either.

The solution that is proposed though, to allow them to share women's spaces, is not a viable one as it puts women in an equally vulnerable position - the perception that their right to safety and privacy is at risk. Why should one group be made to feel unsafe and uncomfortable because another group wants to feel safe and comfortable? How does that actually address the issue of the group which is causing both groups discomfort and fears for their safety and privacy?

It doesn't IMO. It merely places a responsibility on one group which isn't their responsibility, and it does nothing to tackle the perception that a minority of people who are transgender have about the majority of men based on the fact that there are a minority of men who commit intimidation and violence against them. It's easier of course to shame women into submission on this issue, because they know well that men generally won't give a flying f... so in that respect at least, that minority of people who are transgender are far more similar to the small minority of men, not only in their attitudes towards the vast majority of women, but also their attitudes towards the vast majority of men.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I do understand why some people who are transgender would feel that way (and this is in spite of the fact that any of my friends who are transgender have never experienced this, but then I don't inquire of their bathroom habits either, so I can't say it's ever come up), but I do appreciate that my limited experience is not representative of a whole lot, nor do I simply take at face value the testimony of others who would only again be a very small minority of people who are transgender, and so they would not be representative of the majority either.

The solution that is proposed though, to allow them to share women's spaces, is not a viable one as it puts women in an equally vulnerable position - the perception that their right to safety and privacy is at risk. Why should one group be made to feel unsafe and uncomfortable because another group wants to feel safe and comfortable? How does that actually address the issue of the group which is causing both groups discomfort and fears for their safety and privacy?

It doesn't IMO. It merely places a responsibility on one group which isn't their responsibility, and it does nothing to tackle the perception that a minority of people who are transgender have about the majority of men based on the fact that there are a minority of men who commit intimidation and violence against them. It's easier of course to shame women into submission on this issue, because they know well that men generally won't give a flying f... so in that respect at least, that minority of people who are transgender are far more similar to the small minority of men, not only in their attitudes towards the vast majority of women, but also their attitudes towards the vast majority of men.

Ignoring arguments about safety (I do think that a transgender woman going into a male bathroom is at far more risk of abuse than anyone is in a ladies bathroom from a transgender female), I think its more about acceptance and how to weigh people's discomfort.

There's always going to be some group that are uncomfortable when another group gains some kind of legal right or are accepted socially into a new area. I would look at the discomfort of a non transgender female in a ladies bathroom at sharing a space with what she thinks of a man and weigh that against what amounts to saying to transgender women "we don't really consider you a woman". It's not really a case of discomfort vs discomfort but discomfort vs a social stigma. These kinds of stigma are far more damaging than standard discomfort.