Persephone kindness wrote: » seeing blood in the toilet sometimes.
Mrs OBumble wrote: » Neither hospitals nor nursing homes are gender segregated.
Widdershins wrote: » Aren't the rooms in hospital wards gender specific, or was it just coincidence that I shared a room with other women and when I passed the other room it was occupied by men only? I wasn't sure.
seachto7 wrote: » I’ve done it, in emergencies, gone to the women’s jacks, but there are a certain demographic or mainly young women, who won’t apoligise for going into the men’s jacks, and get pretty thick when you pull them on it. Same types who like to skip queues to get in someplace.
The_Captain wrote: » To be honest, the whole transgender rights thing feels like a fad to me. It gets a massive amount of focus right now, and it seems like if there's a conflict between women's rights and transgender rights, the women's issue is less important. More and more feminists seem to be getting called TERF bigots for having any concerns about transgenderism
NinjaKirby wrote: » I don't think it's fad, to be honest. I think historically it would have been much more difficult for transgender people to pass as the gender they identify with. With medical developments in pharmaceuticals, cosmetic surgery and hormone therapy (hell, even just better knowledge of diet and exercise) it's becoming a much more viable option for people who would have historically just suffered in silence. You have more acceptance in society and you have far better legal options nowadays too if you wish to transition. That's all good. The consequence of this though is that it leads us to question what gender actually is. Obviously you have the biological aspect but in terms of what we see in wider society people are starting to accept that biological sex and gender expression are different. We are starting to accept that gender expression can be a bit more fluid. It should be obvious where this will collide with Feminism. If the idea that gender fluid becomes mainstream then it's suddenly impossible to maintain criticisms of "men". Sorry, I don't identify as male right now, maybe come back later. Conversations about male privilege break down too because men can avoid taking responsibility for their privilege by having a more fluid gender identity. Gender fluidity wrecks arguments about the wage gap and also wrecks any kind of quotas that might be introduced. Put it this way, if the only thing standing between me and a new job or a place on a college course is a gender identity that I can switch on a whim... Eventually society would become a lot more individualist because it would become impossible to form people into groups if our identities are fluid. Feminism relies on a fixed dichotomy between men and women so it would struggle to remain relevant in a world where it's impossible to keep people in one or the other of those groups. It's no surprise that they'd fight that.
hatrickpatrick wrote: » Personally I always go into cubicles to take a piss - how there are lads who can pee and not dab the end of their weiner with a bit of tissue before zipping up has always been totally beyond me.
ceadaoin. wrote: » I thought most hospitals have wards separated by sex? I know in the UK most hospitals have these. Re nursing homes I was thinking more of the rights of a patient to a express a preference for the sex of the person doing their intimate care. Why are people (mostly women tbh, I've yet to see a man called a "terf" or equivalent) being shamed for feeling more comfortable around people of the same sex in certain situations?(hospitals, doctor exams, changing rooms etc)
jeanjolie wrote: » I think it's because on could say that it's a bit sexist isn't it. Sure men and women are different, but in our 'liberal progressive Western societies', why should people feel discomfort from seeing a penis in a changing room if they'r a woman? The mentality at worst assumes that a man in a woman changing room is looking for sexual pleasure and/or is a probably rapist. Personally, I understand a woman's right to privacy, but isn't it ignorance for example when someone tells you that they don't care about gender, aren't masculine, and not sexually attracted to women to get extremely uncomfortable changing with them unless there is a significant hygiene problem or behavioral problem that makes you really uncomfortable? My ignorant female cousin fits into this profile.
LLMMLL wrote: » Yet the vast vast majority of people still identify as a particular gender and seem to feel relatively comfortable doing so. I don't foresee a situation where people are going to claim to be gender fluid or the opposite gender to get past bureaucracy. It sounds like the anti civil partnership argument that two farmer brothers could do it to take advantage of tax breaks.
One eyed Jack wrote: » I wouldn't say your cousin is ignorant because she expects that consideration for her right to privacy be respected? It's not about whether someone is telling women that they have no interest in them, it's simply that those women are uncomfortable, and it could be for any reason. Subjecting women to an interrogation because you feel they are ignorant of your Western liberal standards is the definition of you feeling that your rights should over-ride their right to safety, comfort and privacy. Wanting to muscle in on women's spaces is the behavioural problem which makes them uncomfortable, and as ceadaoin pointed out earlier, it doesn't stop there -The Cotton Ceiling – lesbian women must consider trans women as potential sexual partners Unless women have sex with people who are transgender, now they can be labelled as you did your cousin - ignorant. You must surely be able to understand why women would consider such nonsense unreasonable? And it is women who are disproportionately affected by this, because the same people who are arguing that they should have access to women's spaces, are the same people who use the argument that they feel unsafe in men's spaces. They don't see themselves as being sexist misandrists or misogynists though. It's as though they allow for different standards for themselves, but they expect nobody else should be allowed to have different standards for themselves. Again, does that sound reasonable to you? Certainly sounds unreasonable to me. I wouldn't feel threatened or intimidated by having to share a space with anyone for any reason, but I posess the social awareness to understand that people exist who do not share my standards, and I respect that. I'm given the same respect in return. What people who are transgender appear to want to do is demand that other people respect their standards, while they don't have to respect other peoples standards, and I'm pretty sure society generally doesn't work like that, hence the push back.
jobbridge4life wrote: » Sorry OEJ but transgender people are not some homogeneous group who are collectively 'demanding' anything.
The bathroom issue may seem like a minor one from the perspective of someone who appears as the gender they are. For many transgender women, particularly if they are not able to 'pass' being forced to use the male bathroom is not a mere inconvenience, it is positively dangerous.
NinjaKirby wrote: » Just to be clear, I am not anti gender fluid or anti any change in how society views gender. I'm personally leaning away from the idea of the "only 2 genders" point of view but that could change. The bit in bold is exactly my point. This is why women's rights and transgender rights will inevitably clash. That's why you have a lot of what they call TERFs. It won't be a situation where people claim to be gender fluid. The understanding of gender is changing in such a way that everyone could reasonably be considered gender fluid. I think massive changes are coming in the next decade regarding how kids are educated on gender. We'll see though.
One eyed Jack wrote: » I do understand why some people who are transgender would feel that way (and this is in spite of the fact that any of my friends who are transgender have never experienced this, but then I don't inquire of their bathroom habits either, so I can't say it's ever come up), but I do appreciate that my limited experience is not representative of a whole lot, nor do I simply take at face value the testimony of others who would only again be a very small minority of people who are transgender, and so they would not be representative of the majority either. The solution that is proposed though, to allow them to share women's spaces, is not a viable one as it puts women in an equally vulnerable position - the perception that their right to safety and privacy is at risk. Why should one group be made to feel unsafe and uncomfortable because another group wants to feel safe and comfortable? How does that actually address the issue of the group which is causing both groups discomfort and fears for their safety and privacy? It doesn't IMO. It merely places a responsibility on one group which isn't their responsibility, and it does nothing to tackle the perception that a minority of people who are transgender have about the majority of men based on the fact that there are a minority of men who commit intimidation and violence against them. It's easier of course to shame women into submission on this issue, because they know well that men generally won't give a flying f... so in that respect at least, that minority of people who are transgender are far more similar to the small minority of men, not only in their attitudes towards the vast majority of women, but also their attitudes towards the vast majority of men.
