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The end for petrol and diesel vehicles.

13

Comments

  • #62
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,296 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    kyote00 wrote: »
    If the range is 110-130 then am I not right on the edge of range ?

    So will I either need to stop somewhere or find a free charge point in town during the day ?
    To ease range anxiety it would be ideal if you had an outlet at work alright.

    Your idea of trying one for a week to see if it suited would be a good one, if it were possible. Probably not though. Or someone who has one that travels the same kinda distances, without charging it during the day.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #63
    zilog_jones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,716 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    kyote00 wrote: »
    1) The range is not 200km, it's 110-130.

    Nissan website indicates either (124miles /199km) or (155 miles/249km)
    https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/leaf/charging-range.html

    The NEDC range is some nonsense calculated in a lab and has no bearing on reality. In reality it's around 110-130 km with the 24 kWh battery and 160-170 km with the 30 kWh battery.

    I can't imagine 28kg will make a massive difference. It's like a weight of a 9 year old child.
    2) At 45 minutes charging per 1000km
    This is extreme massaging of the figures....In reality, you can stop more frequency to fast charge to 80%....
    It's based on ELM327's personal experience with the driving he does. You *can* do a lot of things with an EV, not sure what you're trying to get at here.


  • #64
    goz83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,778 ✭✭✭goz83


    jacksie66 wrote: »
    I'm quite happy with my 03 1.8 petrol Opel vectra gts to be honest. Got 820km out of a full tank today. Won't be getting that kind of milage on an electric car soon..

    Was that straight driving, or did you stop off a few times? How much does it cost to fill the tank?

    Take the Ioniq and 4 fast charges of 20-25 mins each of free electricity. I'll take the minor inconvenience of charging in the short term over the high costs of dinosaur juice.
    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    A tractor would need a 16hr run time whilst delivering power to attached machinery. The light footed granny coaxing you see with leafs on the motorway today won't cut it in agriculture.

    The electric car is still an awful compromise today. Three stops or an extra hour and a half to get from Finglas to the Slieve Russell in Cavan... No thanks, the product is not ready yet.

    Batteries are constantly being improved, which will mean smaller, denser batteries with better storage. It's only a matter of small years before the EV exceeds the range of a diesel car in a single charge. This will be driven by the fact that many don't have access to personal charge points.

    The product is ready for plenty of us. Unfortunately, our nation are very slow to change compared to others and we need the stick more than the carrot on our "grand" little island.

    I'm amazed at the amount of people who seem so negative about electric cars, I really am. I am a car lover. I've had a few in my 15 years of driving. I love the sound of V6 and the sound of a V8 makes me weak at the knees. I get it. But some people seem very dismissive and/or passive aggressive when talking about EVs. They have some improvements to be made, but for the love of all things on wheels, give respect where it's due. The tech has been on hold for a hundred years and is only now coming back into the fold and for very good reasons. They may not have the range of ICE cars right now, but they hands down beat them in many other ways. FWIW, I don't have to spend any time at a petrol station....I charge at home, on night rate. I spend about €3 per week on electricity for the EV and my motor tax dropped from just under 200 euro per quarter to 120 per year. Converting to EV makes more sense than most people know.


  • #65
    zl1whqvjs75cdy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭zl1whqvjs75cdy


    ^ I don't see battery technology beating 1200 km in a single charge in the next few short years to be honest. I get that with my diesel golfs full tank driving carefully.


  • #66
    hytrogen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 947 ✭✭✭hytrogen


    tabby aspreme wrote:
    How many tonnes of batteries would an artic need to power it for four hours, there would be a big drop in payload. I see a new LPG powered Daf truck bringing malted barley from Athy to Guinness's regularly.
    Remington Handsome Pantry wrote:
    ^ I don't see battery technology beating 1200 km in a single charge in the next few short years to be honest. I get that with my diesel golfs full tank driving carefully.

    The design of these trucks would be similar to the Dart or Luas with the overhead cables powering them over long distances or in towns with a generator onboard for longer less facilitated stretches of road.
    Basically heavy freight needs to move to rail and small freight lorries convert to hybrid and the likes of Deliveroo.


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  • #67
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,296 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »
    ^ I don't see battery technology beating 1200 km in a single charge in the next few short years to be honest.
    Neither do I D. For nearly as long as I can remember reading about various strands of new tech I've read about all sorts of new battery tech that would change the world "coming soon". Lithium-Ion was about the only one to come along in a practical way and change the world after a long gestation at that. Lithium-Air batteries seem to have some legs to the concept, but it's got a long gestation ahead of it too.

    Barring a real world innovation Li-ion is what we'll have for the next few years. Sure it will become more efficient, but I'd bet that the biggest gains have already happened and future gains will be much more incremental. And they'll still use lithium, which if the world goes over to battery cars will become more and more expensive and finite.

    I'd see current EV's like those very first LED digital watches back in the 70's. Fantastic technology and they kinda worked and early adopters loved them, but they didn't work quite well enough to make most average people get one. Then LCD came along and that change made the difference, they really worked, were "better" than all other tech(and pretty much killed it) and went stratospheric overnight. IMHO EV's need their "LCD innovation" and I don't see it yet.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #68
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,296 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    goz83 wrote: »
    I'm amazed at the amount of people who seem so negative about electric cars, I really am.
    I'm not G. I think they are a great idea for city dwellers today and will get better with time, to the point where they will pass the internal combustion engine and leave it in the past. I like where the tech is going, I really do.

    What's not to like? Cheaper to run, can be easily made less damaging to our planet and are already ahead there, eff all to go wrong or service(the rest of the electronics will die long before the motor will).

    I love what they will mean for classic cars too. At least ones that originally came with meh engines. I'd happily shoot the man dead who would drop an electric motor into a Ferrari 250 SWB and no judge would convict me, but others? The VW Beetles with leccy conversions are brilliant IMHO and far better than the original collection of noisy bolts hoping for forward progress. I'd bloody love an original Fiat 500 with a transplanted leccy motor as a "town car". Ditto for something like an original Mini. A Lotus Seven with a leccy motor would be a hoot. They could really make a huge difference in getting and keeping stylish old classics on our roads.

    Honestly G? For me it's not the cars*, it's too many of the drivers, the EV proselytisers, the fanboys. It's like wheeled veganism, a weird nerdy "religion" for them and like all new converts they tend towards the blind fervour, po-faced high horsing, smugness and defensiveness of their "faith" and frankly it gets rapidly bloody boring. And I would bet the farm I'd not be alone in that.





    *caveat, some of it is the cars, or the current crop anyway. They're pretty boring econoboxes, or overpriced and overweight Merc type clones. About as exciting as semolina. They need to get Italians into the mix.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #69
    kyote00
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭kyote00


    As of matter intterest, do you use the EV for long journeys - say Dublin to Killarney and back ?
    goz83 wrote: »
    Was that straight driving, or did you stop off a few times? How much does it cost to fill the tank?

    Take the Ioniq and 4 fast charges of 20-25 mins each of free electricity. I'll take the minor inconvenience of charging in the short term over the high costs of dinosaur juice.



    Batteries are constantly being improved, which will mean smaller, denser batteries with better storage. It's only a matter of small years before the EV exceeds the range of a diesel car in a single charge. This will be driven by the fact that many don't have access to personal charge points.

    The product is ready for plenty of us. Unfortunately, our nation are very slow to change compared to others and we need the stick more than the carrot on our "grand" little island.

    I'm amazed at the amount of people who seem so negative about electric cars, I really am. I am a car lover. I've had a few in my 15 years of driving. I love the sound of V6 and the sound of a V8 makes me weak at the knees. I get it. But some people seem very dismissive and/or passive aggressive when talking about EVs. They have some improvements to be made, but for the love of all things on wheels, give respect where it's due. The tech has been on hold for a hundred years and is only now coming back into the fold and for very good reasons. They may not have the range of ICE cars right now, but they hands down beat them in many other ways. FWIW, I don't have to spend any time at a petrol station....I charge at home, on night rate. I spend about €3 per week on electricity for the EV and my motor tax dropped from just under 200 euro per quarter to 120 per year. Converting to EV makes more sense than most people know.


  • #70
    Thelomen Toblackai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 965 ✭✭✭Thelomen Toblackai


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Honestly G? For me it's not the cars*, it's too many of the drivers, the EV proselytisers, the fanboys. It's like wheeled veganism, a weird nerdy "religion" for them and like all new converts they tend towards the blind fervour, po-faced high horsing, smugness and defensiveness of their "faith" and frankly it gets rapidly bloody boring. And I would bet the farm I'd not be alone in that.

    How are vocal idiots blindly defending their new faith any different than vocal idiots blindly defending their old faith though ? I see people say this a lot in relation to tv shows, atheism, veganism, social media, car manufacturers, now electric cars. Pretty much anything new that's growing in popularity. Yet there's as many if not more "fanboys" aggressive and negative about those things because they feel their own beliefs, likes, interests which they are "nerdy about" threatened by them.

    Everyone seems to have a side in everything or an image they need to keep or define themselves by not being something else. Surely if you think it's a great idea, more environmentally friendly, more efficient, better in the long run and something you'd love to improve you'd just support it ?

    Tbh I think the "fanboys put me off" argument is just an excuse to dismiss things because their some amount of effort or compromise involved.


  • #71
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,132 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    Am I a fangirl then?

    Mostly I answer people's questions when they see me unplug. And correct misconceptions if I see them.

    The charging thing works for me, because even though I am one of those contracting engineers who is on a different site everyday, my car mostly brings me to site and sits there all day waiting for me. It also sits idle all night long at my house. Sure it might as well charge up, what else would it be doing... ;). It only gets plugged twice a week. Less than my phone, that's for sure.

    I took my parents car to get serviced last week, and topped it up with petrol on the way home. Felt vaguely nauseous at a petrol pump with the stink and waiting for this crap to belch into the car, it's been nearly 3 years since I wasted my time like that in a forecourt. And yet I never noticed it at all when I did it every week or so.

    You get used to a different way very quickly, and anything else feels a bit alien, so I get the reticence. It's not THAT hard to plug something in though. Most of us have that skillset by now.


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  • #72
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,296 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    kyote00 wrote: »
    1) The range is not 200km, it's 110-130.

    Nissan website indicates either (124miles /199km) or (155 miles/249km)
    https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/leaf/charging-range.html

    2) At 45 minutes charging per 1000km
    This is extreme massaging of the figures....In reality, you can stop more frequency to fast charge to 80%....

    3) Not on a high horse mate.
    I'm not your mate ;)
    1 - So, ignore the range that a real world EV owner is getting? And take the manufacturer's figures without question. Do you work for VW?

    2- It's not massaging, it's my reality. You can stop more frequently to fast charge. You could also stop for 10 hours at a 3 pin plug en route to prove a point.

    3- Evidently.


    Go drive an EV for a while, join the Irish EV Owners Association facebook page, read real world experiences from real world owners and then come back.
    It's not necessarily your fault, there are a hell of a lot of misconceptions and preconceived ideas about EV. And they are not helped by the NEDC range. I generally take the EPA range -10% for a real world figure that I could get everyday. The leaf I believe is EPA rated for 87 miles? 87 miles less 10 percent is 79 miles, and I believe that is doable.


  • #73
    kyote00
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭kyote00


    1 I'll take the manufacturers figures (lab or otherwise) every time over random claims on a web forum that may or may not generalise to the general population.

    2 Your reality of frequency charging is why, for the time being, at least, I won't use an EV. If they day arrives that I can charge it once a week only, then I will

    3 Touché

    ( I have already driven a tesla (in Holland), a Zoe (in France) and a Leaf (here on test drive) )

    I don't work for VW - but surely you and some of the other EV evangelists must be connected to the EV industry - I can see no other reason for the blind faith you have in a developing technology.

    Anyways, probably time to park this before the thread is derailed
    ELM327 wrote: »
    1 - So, ignore the range that a real world EV owner is getting? And take the manufacturer's figures without question. Do you work for VW?

    2- It's not massaging, it's my reality. You can stop more frequently to fast charge. You could also stop for 10 hours at a 3 pin plug en route to prove a point.

    3- Evidently.

    .... bla bla .....


  • #74
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,643 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    who pays for all this "at work" charging?


  • #75
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,296 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »
    How are vocal idiots blindly defending their new faith any different than vocal idiots blindly defending their old faith though ?
    They're not. I'd reserve the same ire for someone saying "Electric cars are crap". Though I have found early adopters of any new tech tend to be the more vocal, smug and proselytising.
    Surely if you think it's a great idea, more environmentally friendly, more efficient, better in the long run and something you'd love to improve you'd just support it ?
    I do. You seem to have missed the three quarters of my last post where I did. Which pretty much illustrates my point.
    Tbh I think the "fanboys put me off" argument is just an excuse to dismiss things because their some amount of effort or compromise involved.
    Not really. I use all sorts of things that have their fanboys. I use an Apple Mac because I quite simply prefer it to the alternatives(currently), but my idea of the seventh circle of hell would be getting cornered by a Mac fan.
    pwurple wrote: »
    Am I a fangirl then?
    Hmmm.
    Felt vaguely nauseous at a petrol pump with the stink and waiting for this crap to belch into the car/It's not THAT hard to plug something in though. Most of us have that skillset by now.
    With that level of hyperbole, with a sniff of smugness... Again kinda illustrating my point.
    kyote00 wrote: »
    1 I'll take the manufacturers figures (lab or otherwise) every time over random claims on a web forum that may or may not generalise to the general population.
    Jaysus, I wouldn't. No way. manufacturers figures regardless of motive power are rarely translatable into real world experience. If a majority of users report Result A, while the manufacturers report Result B, I'm going with Result A as the reality. QV BMW's figures for their sporty hybrid.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #76
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,296 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    kyote00 wrote: »
    1 I'll take the manufacturers figures (lab or otherwise) every time over random claims on a web forum that may or may not generalise to the general population.
    kyote00 wrote: »
    ( I have already driven a tesla (in Holland), a Zoe (in France) and a Leaf (here on test drive) )
    If you've really already driven a leaf, you will know better than to claim 199km range!
    kyote00 wrote: »
    2 Your reality of frequency charging is why, for the time being, at least, I won't use an EV. If they day arrives that I can charge it once a week only, then I will

    Fair enough. No one is telling you you must change to an EV. Same as no one is telling you to buy a mobile phone instead of a landline, a landline instead of a fax etc.


    kyote00 wrote: »
    I don't work for VW - but surely you and some of the other EV evangelists must be connected to the EV industry - I can see no other reason for the blind faith you have in a developing technology.

    Anyways, probably time to park this before the thread is derailed
    I'm no ev evangelist, nor do I have any connections to the industry. I'm just promoting a technology that is going to reduce our emissions, going to stop us having to pay punitive EU fines, stop our children getting Asthma and lung diseases, and above all else (and more importantly for me) it saves me money. It saved me money before my work charger, but now it's really saving me money. I have had many diesel cars before now, doing 50-60k per year is expensive in anything not fuelled by electricity!

    The thread is not being derailed, it's a discussion on the end of ICE cars and the resurgence of EV. I find this to be perfectly on topic.
    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    who pays for all this "at work" charging?
    Work, in my case.
    Some places they charge you for it, but some places it's free.


  • #77
    kyote00
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭kyote00


    I am not claiming anything - I am quoting the manufacturers figures and was wondering why your figures were less.

    To be clear, until such time as there is some independent figures for the range, charging etc ... I won't accept figures that only one person (you) are giving.
    Thats your experience, who knows if it can be generalised.

    If you really want to be green and save money, why not use a bike or take the bus ?


    ELM327 wrote: »
    If you've really already driven a leaf, you will know better than to claim 199km range!


  • #78
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,296 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    kyote00 wrote: »
    I am not claiming anything - I am quoting the manufacturers figures and was wondering why your figures were less.

    To be clear, until such time as there is some independent figures for the range, charging etc ... I won't accept figures that only one person (you) are giving.
    Thats your experience, who knows if it can be generalised.

    If you really want to be green and save money, why not use a bike or take the bus ?
    zilog_jones wrote: »
    The NEDC range is some nonsense calculated in a lab and has no bearing on reality. In reality it's around 110-130 km with the 24 kWh battery and 160-170 km with the 30 kWh battery.

    Here's one person in this last 1 page alone.
    Read the facebook groups, the speakev forum in the UK. Or just drive a leaf!! I'm not "just one person", my range experience is typical for ALL leaf users.

    Take a bus? Which bus do you know that does 60km from my house at 630 AM to arrive at work before 730AM, and doesnt belch out carcinogens?

    Can't cycle 60k to work and 60k home?


  • #79
    kyote00
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭kyote00


    So now we have two people - both on the internet claiming .... great .... two individual experiences which may or may not be the same

    60k + 60k is 120k --> so you need to top up on en route each day and still takes one hour travel time ?


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Here's one person in this last 1 page alone.
    Read the facebook groups, the speakev forum in the UK. Or just drive a leaf!! I'm not "just one person", my range experience is typical for ALL leaf users.

    Take a bus? Which bus do you know that does 60km from my house at 630 AM to arrive at work before 730AM, and doesnt belch out carcinogens?

    Can't cycle 60k to work and 60k home?


  • #80
    zilog_jones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,716 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    My figures were based on the US EPA measurements, which are actually achievable in reality; and various user experience in Ireland. There are countless reports of what range people are getting here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1634

    Look at any NEDC figures for fuel consumption of ICE cars - they are completely inaccurate and useless.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_European_Driving_Cycle#Criticism (note there are references)

    Thanks to VW, the EU are hopefully replacing this with the WLTP test cycle, which should be more accurate.


  • #81
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,296 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    kyote00 wrote: »
    So now we have two people - both on the internet claiming .... great .... two individual experiences which may or may not be the same

    60k + 60k is 120k --> so you need to top up on en route each day and still takes one hour travel time ?

    No I don't top up en route, I have work charging so I arrive to a full car for each leg of the trip.

    I have never, ever heard of someone using the NEDC range as reality. You must run out of fuel a lot!! If you expect to achieve the MPG claims in your two diesels that the manufacturer states?
    zilog_jones wrote: »
    My figures were based on the US EPA measurements, which are actually achievable in reality; and various user experience in Ireland. There are countless reports of what range people are getting here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1634

    Look at any NEDC figures for fuel consumption of ICE cars - they are completely inaccurate and useless.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_European_Driving_Cycle#Criticism (note there are references)

    Thanks to VW, the EU are hopefully replacing this with the WLTP test cycle, which should be more accurate.


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  • #82
    goz83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,778 ✭✭✭goz83


    kyote00 wrote: »
    As of matter intterest, do you use the EV for long journeys - say Dublin to Killarney and back ?

    No, I rarely do long journeys. Most of the driving is inside a 20klm radius. But when the journey is longer, I thoroughly enjoy the fact that the journey will be mostly free. A few weeks ago for example, I drove North Dublin to Portlaoise to pick up some Mats for the car from another Leaf owner. I plugged into the fast charger when I arrived and waited for the guy with the mats. After 20 mins, I had 81% battery and drove to Kilcullen to drop something off to a client and then back to Dublin.

    If I do longer journeys, I don't mind stopping and plugging in. It suits me perfectly, as I do need a break if driving longer periods. That might not suit everyone, but the real pay off for me...is not paying at all :)

    I don't know any ICE drivers who can drive Dublin Killarney for free. (company cars don't count). That said, I wouldn't do long journeys regularly in any car. I like driving and wouldn't make it a chore for myself.
    kyote00 wrote: »
    I am not claiming anything - I am quoting the manufacturers figures and was wondering why your figures were less.

    Manufacturers figures are pulled out of their hole. You can take it or leave it when it comes to lads on the internet who say they own an EV and quote their real world range.
    kyote00 wrote: »
    If you really want to be green and save money, why not use a bike or take the bus ?

    I don't think anyone is waving the green flag as their reason to go EV. It's a great bonus not to be polluting the air when driving an EV, but I would say that 99% do it for fuel savings.

    Also driving a car I would say is a bit safer than cycling.....not withstanding the distances some people commute. And then public transport can be grubby and unreliable AND expensive.


  • #83
    kyote00
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭kyote00


    My point is (and you keep missing it) is that in the absence of real data, I will use the manufacturers data. Real data does not mean the word of members on a forum. I won't trust internet forums in general for figures like these because people naturally exaggerate to suit their own view of the world....

    My two diesels ? Has someone been stalking me ?

    Anyways, enjoy your EV. I think I will wait for the flux capacitor version :pac:


    ELM327 wrote: »
    No I don't top up en route, I have work charging so I arrive to a full car for each leg of the trip.

    I have never, ever heard of someone using the NEDC range as reality. You must run out of fuel a lot!! If you expect to achieve the MPG claims in your two diesels that the manufacturer states?


  • #84
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,296 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    kyote00 wrote: »
    My point is (and you keep missing it) is that in the absence of real data, I will use the manufacturers data. Real data does not mean the word of members on a forum. I won't trust internet forums in general for figures like these because people naturally exaggerate to suit their own view of the world....

    My two diesels ? Has someone been stalking me ?

    Anyways, enjoy your EV. I think I will wait for the flux capacitor version :pac:
    Manufacturer data is in a lab, not achievable in the real world.
    Use the EPA data.

    I heard and you keep repeating your point. I have not missed it, just explained why it is inaccurate. To further illustrate the inaccuracy I will make a verified charitable donation to a charity of your choosing if you can drive any car to it's NEDC range, driving at a normal speed. Any car currently sold in Ireland. ICE or EV.

    I was not stalking, I checked your previous posts to see if you drove an EV or an ICE.


  • #85
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,296 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    goz83 wrote: »
    Manufacturers figures are pulled out of their hole.
    Quoted for truth. If we were talking about ICE manufacturers figures we wouldn't even be having this debate. How many manufacturers claimed MPG figures reflect reality? Feck all. Or none. The shenanigans they pull to get the claimed figures is well known and that will be the case with EVs. If I want to know the real world range of any car, I'd poll owners, every time. IF EV owners were claiming better results than the manufacturers I'd raise an eyebrow or two, but they don't*.





    *Not outside the States anyway(Some Musk worshippers over there do, but they can be like cultists).

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #86
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,733 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    goz83 wrote: »
    No, I rarely do long journeys. Most of the driving is inside a 20klm radius. But when the journey is longer, I thoroughly enjoy the fact that the journey will be mostly free. A few weeks ago for example, I drove North Dublin to Portlaoise to pick up some Mats for the car from another Leaf owner. I plugged into the fast charger when I arrived and waited for the guy with the mats. After 20 mins, I had 81% battery and drove to Kilcullen to drop something off to a client and then back to Dublin.

    If I do longer journeys, I don't mind stopping and plugging in. It suits me perfectly, as I do need a break if driving longer periods. That might not suit everyone, but the real pay off for me...is not paying at all :)

    I don't know any ICE drivers who can drive Dublin Killarney for free. (company cars don't count). That said, I wouldn't do long journeys regularly in any car. I like driving and wouldn't make it a chore for myself.



    Manufacturers figures are pulled out of their hole. You can take it or leave it when it comes to lads on the internet who say they own an EV and quote their real world range.



    I don't think anyone is waving the green flag as their reason to go EV. It's a great bonus not to be polluting the air when driving an EV, but I would say that 99% do it for fuel savings.

    Also driving a car I would say is a bit safer than cycling.....not withstanding the distances some people commute. And then public transport can be grubby and unreliable AND expensive.

    If EV is as great a product as you say it is would you drive one if it was taxed the same as the diesel (i.e. costing about 70-75% of a diesel km)?

    I bet you wouldn't. The only reason people are driving EV's is for the tax break on fuel. Furthermore if you ask these drivers how to encourage more EV's on the road it's always about giving themselves more freebies, like driving in bus lanes or free town parking, as if you weren't getting enough already.


  • #87
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,643 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Work, in my case.
    Some places they charge you for it, but some places it's free.

    pay BIK on that?


  • #88
    kyote00
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭kyote00


    Seriously dude, you are missing the point again and again....

    I am not suggesting the manufactorers data will play out exactly in the real world driving....BUT.... that the conditions under which it is gathered is more specific, repeatable and evidentially accurate than a bunch or posts on the internet forum.

    It is exactly lab conditions ---> it says it in the small print and that is the point. it is the theoretic best case for the engine. It helps us compare one vehicle to another one under what are lab conditions.

    Your real world means nothing --- they could be variable wind speed, tyres, road condition, traffic conidtions etc etc --- FFS you don't even say what car you have
    (post a pic of your EV so we know)

    If you were to follow advice on this motors forum from users, you would believe
    - Toyota are either bullet proof or rubbish
    - dusters are brilliant
    - dusters roll over in slight sideways breeze.
    - renault electrics are rubbish
    - BMWs are the pinnacle of motoring tech
    - alfa rust like no other
    - all dealers are scumbags
    - NCT is a scam
    - speed doesn't kill


    Checking my previous posts for info is a bit creepy - I already indicated I test drove EVs only. You now hold the opinion I have two diesels -- maybe I was BSing last time - how do you know this is true ?

    I have no interest in you sending money to a charity to help validate your world view.

    Actually, need to go to work now...in one of "my two diesels" presumably
    ELM327 wrote: »
    Manufacturer data is in a lab, not achievable in the real world.
    Use the EPA data.

    I heard and you keep repeating your point. I have not missed it, just explained why it is inaccurate. To further illustrate the inaccuracy I will make a verified charitable donation to a charity of your choosing if you can drive any car to it's NEDC range, driving at a normal speed. Any car currently sold in Ireland. ICE or EV.

    I was not stalking, I checked your previous posts to see if you drove an EV or an ICE.


  • #89
    kirving
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,294 ✭✭✭kirving


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Quoted for truth. If we were talking about ICE manufacturers figures we wouldn't even be having this debate. How many manufacturers claimed MPG figures reflect reality? Feck all. Or none. The shenanigans they pull to get the claimed figures is well known and that will be the case with EVs. If I want to know the real world range of any car, I'd poll owners, every time. IF EV owners were claiming better results than the manufacturers I'd raise an eyebrow or two, but they don't*.

    *Not outside the States anyway(Some Musk worshippers over there do, but they can be like cultists).

    On a new car, I'd be polling the owners too. My 2008 1.8 Petrol does almost exactly what Volvo quoted. The reason? My guess is that in 2008 noone really cared about MPG as they do now, particularly not on a flexfuel/petrol that had a €5k rebate at the time. And 7.4l/100km is rubbish anyway, so no point in lying to scrape another 10%.

    The MPG race from the past few years was non-nonsensical, and in the US, manufacturers were caught inflating figues by 1MPG just to beat the competition.


  • #90
    goz83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,778 ✭✭✭goz83


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    If EV is as great a product as you say it is would you drive one if it was taxed the same as the diesel (i.e. costing about 70-75% of a diesel km)?

    I bet you wouldn't. The only reason people are driving EV's is for the tax break on fuel. Furthermore if you ask these drivers how to encourage more EV's on the road it's always about giving themselves more freebies, like driving in bus lanes or free town parking, as if you weren't getting enough already.

    You bet wrong. I just would not own a Diesel car at all. I think they are dirty polluting yokes (especially with the DPF removed) and they sound horrible compared to the equivalent petrol engine. The only thing I like about Diesel cars, is the low end torque and I only have experience of this, because I rent cars when on holidays and I usually end up with a Diesel.

    You're also making blanket statements about the reasons EV drivers encourage others to convert to EV. If you ask me why I would encourage more EVs, it's solely because one more EV on the road is one less Diesel on the road. My 6 year old son has Asthma. The pollution he inhales on his walk/cycle to school labours his breathing every single time, because the journey is on a footpath beside a main road.

    And for the record, I think allowing EVs in bus lanes is a bad idea. The free parking....I can take it, or leave it. Aside from free public charging, we don't really get anything. The grants just bring the price a bit closer to the price of an equivalent ICE car, but not close enough imo. We also have to pay motor tax, which is based on emissions, even though an EV does not give off emissions. OK, it's not very expensive, but it should even be payable, based on the current system.


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  • #91
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,296 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    pay BIK on that?
    Revenue confirmed it is treated the same as you receiving free coffee at work. Notionally eligible for BIK but not practical.
    kyote00 wrote: »
    Seriously dude, you are missing the point again and again....

    I am not suggesting the manufactorers data will play out exactly in the real world driving....BUT.... that the conditions under which it is gathered is more specific, repeatable and evidentially accurate than a bunch or posts on the internet forum.

    It is exactly lab conditions ---> it says it in the small print and that is the point. it is the theoretic best case for the engine. It helps us compare one vehicle to another one under what are lab conditions.

    Your real world means nothing --- they could be variable wind speed, tyres, road condition, traffic conidtions etc etc --- FFS you don't even say what car you have
    (post a pic of your EV so we know)

    If you were to follow advice on this motors forum from users, you would believe
    - Toyota are either bullet proof or rubbish
    - dusters are brilliant
    - dusters roll over in slight sideways breeze.
    - renault electrics are rubbish
    - BMWs are the pinnacle of motoring tech
    - alfa rust like no other
    - all dealers are scumbags
    - NCT is a scam
    - speed doesn't kill


    Checking my previous posts for info is a bit creepy - I already indicated I test drove EVs only. You now hold the opinion I have two diesels -- maybe I was BSing last time - how do you know this is true ?

    I have no interest in you sending money to a charity to help validate your world view.

    Actually, need to go to work now...in one of "my two diesels" presumably
    Ok. Enjoy.


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