The end for petrol and diesel vehicles.

ELM327

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

That's really only a thought experiment. Once power is on the grid you don't know where it has come from. It's like saying no nuclear generated electricity will be imported over the interconnector.

Production cannot exceed demand as it will damage the grid. Generators are loaded/unloaded as required

I have worked in 2 commercial energy supply companies. I assure you it is not a thought experiment. If you produce green energy (or purchase it) it can be sold at a higher price because companies want to be seen to be green.


And when a generator is left running if it's unloaded? Is that not a waste? Why do you think there is a cheaper night rate?

oppenheimer1

ELM327 wrote: »

I have worked in 2 commercial energy supply companies. I assure you it is not a thought experiment. If you produce green energy (or purchase it) it can be sold at a higher price because companies want to be seen to be green.


And when a generator is left running if it's unloaded? Is that not a waste? Why do you think there is a cheaper night rate?

When a generator is unloaded it is not energising the grid. You specifically said that the grid was oversupplied at night and implying that electricity was being dumped (e.g. a heating coil in the sea). What actually happens at night is that quick start gen sets (inefficient) are turned off in periods of low demand and and larger combined cycle gen sets (efficient) do not run at full capacity. The reason for night rate is twofold, it is more efficient to run the combined cycle at near full capacity and the lower night rate encourages load shifting from daylight to night time, helping to balance demand over 24 hrs and reduce peak output and thus peak capacity required on grid.

And yes it is a thought experiment. An extreme example will illustrate the point but it is true for the Irish grid. An energy supplier supplies a remote island and on the mainland it has an entirely renewable supply, but the island is isolated from the mainland and has its own diesel gen set. Islanders can still buy renewable energy from the mainland grid as long as someone else matches their demand by buying fossil fuel from theirs. The grids do not need to be physically connected - it is simply a monetary transaction. The islanders can say they buy green electricity, but in reality their electricity comes from a diesel generator.

But since you've worked for two commercial energy suppliers, you know all this.

ELM327

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

When a generator is unloaded it is not energising the grid. You specifically said that the grid was oversupplied at night and implying that electricity was being dumped (e.g. a heating coil in the sea). What actually happens at night is that quick start gen sets (inefficient) are turned off in periods of low demand and and larger combined cycle gen sets (efficient) do not run at full capacity. The reason for night rate is twofold, it is more efficient to run the combined cycle at near full capacity and the lower night rate encourages load shifting from daylight to night time, helping to balance demand over 24 hrs and reduce peak output and thus peak capacity required on grid.

And yes it is a thought experiment. An extreme example will illustrate the point but it is true for the Irish grid. An energy supplier supplies a remote island and on the mainland it has an entirely renewable supply, but the island is isolated from the mainland and has its own diesel gen set. Islanders can still buy renewable energy from the mainland grid as long as someone else matches their demand by buying fossil fuel from theirs. The grids do not need to be physically connected - it is simply a monetary transaction. The islanders can say they buy green electricity, but in reality their electricity comes from a diesel generator.

But since you've worked for two commercial energy suppliers, you know all this.

So why then, is there a paper trail and record showing the green energy being supplied and purchased by the energy supply company and then resold.

Your pie in the sky example is not really representative of actuality. But I suspect you already know this

oppenheimer1

ELM327 wrote: »

So why then, is there a paper trail and record showing the green energy being supplied and purchased by the energy supply company and then resold.

Your pie in the sky example is not really representative of actuality. But I suspect you already know this

When I buy 100kWh of renewable energy from my supplier all that means is that they have bought 100kWh of renewables on my behalf at some time. It doesn't mean that electricity is coming straight from the wind turbine to my socket.

Its an accounting exercise, and it has to work this way because renewables are intermittent.

ELM327

Of course it does not mean that you purchase and they deliver the renewable energy specifically to you.
That would not be logistically possible.

However it means that as you purchased 100kWh of renewable energy, 100kWh of renewable energy was sent to the grid and purchased by your supplier. So 100kWh of renewable energy was used. Notionally it was used by you but this may not be practically the case.

Of course there is not a way to direct specific units of renewable energy directly to your plug, there is no specific renewable grid. All that is done is alter the percentage of renewables that are supplied/bought/sold.
If that's what you meant initially then I agree with you.

oppenheimer1

ELM327 wrote: »

Of course it does not mean that you purchase and they deliver the renewable energy specifically to you.
That would not be logistically possible.

However it means that as you purchased 100kWh of renewable energy, 100kWh of renewable energy was sent to the grid and purchased by your supplier. So 100kWh of renewable energy was used. Notionally it was used by you but this may not be practically the case.

Of course there is not a way to direct specific units of renewable energy directly to your plug, there is no specific renewable grid. All that is done is alter the percentage of renewables that are supplied/bought/sold.
If that's what you meant initially then I agree with you.

But what that means that in reality: if you plug in to charge on a cold calm starry night in winter, the majority of the energy you're putting into your battery is derived from the burning of coal at Moneypoint.

pwurple

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

100% fully renewable at work? Your work charge point is completely off grid? That is fairly unique in Ireland.

Naw, not unique. I don't know where ELM works, but it's the same in some of the places I work. Renewables on site produce between 140% and 200% of the sites electrical demand. I charge my car when I'm based there. It's fairly common in newer facilities, I know of 3 places around Cork's industrial hubs doing it. Anywhere you see the big wind turbines down around the lower harbour area for example.

They tend to be pretty loud and proud about it, charts showing performance on their intranets etc.

Anyway, yeah, the free fuel for me is pretty sweet. Keep it coming.

Ireland's pretty good for wind, especially on the west coast. Don't think I've ever seen it drop to zero.

oppenheimer1

pwurple wrote: »

Naw, not unique. I don't know where ELM works, but it's the same in some of the places I work. Renewables on site produce between 140% and 200% of the sites electrical demand. I charge my car when I'm based there. It's fairly common in newer facilities, I know of 3 places around Cork's industrial hubs doing it. Anywhere you see the big wind turbines down around the lower harbour area for example.

They tend to be pretty loud and proud about it, charts showing performance on their intranets etc.

Anyway, yeah, the free fuel for me is pretty sweet. Keep it coming.

Ireland's pretty good for wind, especially on the west coast. Don't think I've ever seen it drop to zero.

If renewable self generation can meet demand at all times then fair enough, you can say your car is powered by 100% green energy. However I doubt this is the case and these sites regularly fall back on the grid to supplement supply.

pwurple

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If renewable self generation can meet demand at all times then fair enough, you can say your car is powered by 100% green energy. However I doubt this is the case and these sites regularly fall back on the grid to supplement supply.

Even if it was just off the grid though, that's a minimum of what.. 15% renewable on a slack wind day? Inniscarra etc keep pumping it out after all.

Whatever a fossil fuel vehicle does, it can't even get to 1%.

But yeah, my car isn't 100% green energy supplied, I wouldn't even aspire to it to be honest. I drive EV because I'm a money-lovin' capitalist who hates paying tax.

It saves me a small fortune in tax, fuel, servicing etc. The green credentials are a secondary notion for me.

oppenheimer1

pwurple wrote: »

Even if it was just off the grid though, that's a minimum of what.. 15% renewable on a slack wind day? Inniscarra etc keep pumping it out after all.

Whatever a fossil fuel vehicle does, it can't even get to 1%.

But yeah, my car isn't 100% green energy supplied, I wouldn't even aspire to it to be honest. I drive EV because I'm a money-lovin' capitalist who hates paying tax.

It saves me a small fortune in tax, fuel, servicing etc. The green credentials are a secondary notion for me.

Actually it can. Afaik diesel in Ireland is a bio fuel blend.

Your points are fair enough. I was just refuting the point the other poster made that his car was powered by 100% renewables as he charged at work.

Bushmanpm

IIRC, wind turbines have a diesel engine to keep the blades turning when there's no wind so as to avoid 'Flat Spots'
Hahahahahahahaha
Screw EV's, V8's or motorbikes till I die!

pwurple

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Actually it can. Afaik diesel in Ireland is a bio fuel blend.

Your points are fair enough. I was just refuting the point the other poster made that his car was powered by 100% renewables as he charged at work.

5% biofuel though does not mean 5% energy though. Your typical brand new diesel engine is what... 40 to 45% efficient? ~30% for the petrol.

Your typical EV is around 200Wh/km, which is an equivalent efficiency of 2.0L/100km (or 141mpg assuming diesel fuel. )

oppenheimer1

Tabnabs wrote: »

So, the technology of a few years ago allows a non stop 194km service (they charge it overnight, not every trip :rolleyes:)

They do actually do a top up charge after every trip. The ferry has a 1000kWh battery and drives 2x450kW motors. It could make 2 possibly 3 trips without a top up.

Maybe you should check your sources before throwing out the rolleyes :rolleyes:

IrishHomer

https://www.rte.ie/lifestyle/motors/2017/0520/876698-petrol-and-diesel-engines-have-a-lifespan-of-only-8-years/

riddles

With the impending increase in take up in electric cars - would it be better to run my 141 diesel accord with 65K KM on it into the ground and transition to electric post 2020 rather than upgrade to something now?

zilog_jones

It really depends if the current EVs suit you in terms of range, and how much driving you do. Running costs are substantially lower, so there is potential for return on investment over a few years. You'll probably get better advice here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1634

oppenheimer1

riddles wrote: »

With the impending increase in take up in electric cars - would it be better to run my 141 diesel accord with 65K KM on it into the ground and transition to electric post 2020 rather than upgrade to something now?

If you believe Prof. Seba you are best waiting until post 2021 to make a decision as that's when he believes TaaS will take off negating the need for car ownership of any type.

kyote00

141 with 65k kms is about 22-25k kms per year...

If you change to electric now - assume nissan leaf with 200km range, you will need to recharge it 125 times each year ....... if it takes 5.5hrs to fully charge then you will spend ~28 days charging it per annum...

If you can do this at home each evening its might be ok .... otherwise :eek:

Personally, I find it hard to believe the 2020 date as I doubt the charging infrastructure will be ready, Opec will ramp up oil production to collapse the price of oil and the interior and exterior design of these cars needs major improvement

riddles wrote: »

With the impending increase in take up in electric cars - would it be better to run my 141 diesel accord with 65K KM on it into the ground and transition to electric post 2020 rather than upgrade to something now?

riddles

the round trip to work is about 150K a day on average 3 days per week. There are charge points in work but I haven't looked into how they are managed and the Leaf's seem to be multiplying as a result - right now there are four points available.

ELM327

kyote00 wrote: »

141 with 65k kms is about 22-25k kms per year...

If you change to electric now - assume nissan leaf with 200km range, you will need to recharge it 125 times each year ....... if it takes 5.5hrs to fully charge then you will spend ~28 days charging it per annum...

If you can do this at home each evening its might be ok .... otherwise :eek:

Personally, I find it hard to believe the 2020 date as I doubt the charging infrastructure will be ready, Opec will ramp up oil production to collapse the price of oil and the interior and exterior design of these cars needs major improvement

Lots of innaccurate assumptions there.
Leaf can take 4 hours from empty (with the6.6kw) or 8 hours from empty (with the 3.3kw). The range is not 200km, it's 110-130. However it is likely that the vast majority of the charging is done incidentally - ie without you waiting for the car. I do ~1000km per week. I usually have no more than 3 fast charges in that week when I am waiting for the car. Often it's just 10 minutes to get a quick topup on the way home. At 45 minutes charging per 1000km, thats approximately 18 hours charging time per year. A far stretch from 28 days.


My leaf does most of its charging when parked at work or in my drive.

zilog_jones

kyote00 wrote: »

If you change to electric now - assume nissan leaf with 200km range,

It's more like 160 km with the 30 kWh Leaf. Hyundai Ioniq Electric is closer to 200 km.

you will need to recharge it 125 times each year ....... if it takes 5.5hrs to fully charge then you will spend ~28 days charging it per annum...

It takes 30 minutes to charge to about 80% with a rapid DC charger, which is what you'll find at most public chargers on motorways.

Slow AC charging is for destination charging (e.g. town, work or home). Charging at home overnight is ideal - most humans sleep for at least 6 hours a day anyway There are various options for setting timers on cars so they'll be ready when you need to leave (also pre-heating the cabin, etc. in winter). On night rates you can fully charge a Leaf or Ioniq for about €2.

Wibbs

riddles wrote: »

With the impending increase in take up in electric cars - would it be better to run my 141 diesel accord with 65K KM on it into the ground and transition to electric post 2020 rather than upgrade to something now?

If you were doing mostly city driving, could charge your car at night(difficult if living in an apartment?) and in the market for a new car then an electric car would seem a very good bet. Fuel costs would drop off a cliff. Mind you your Accord has little enough milage on it, so maybe wait as the tech and choice gets better/cheaper? Being among the first adaptors has its risks. And benefits of course. It'll be interesting to see how EV's do in the secondhand market down the line. Will they follow a similar trajectory to petrol/diesel cars, or will they be more like consumer electronics?

kyote00

Lots of nonsense in your post also - so come down off that electric horse.

- At 45 minutes charging per 1000km ...
What Physics makes this possible ? If this is true then I'dl buy a brand new EV car in the morning

- Often it's just 10 minutes to get a quick topup on the way home.
Every day you need to stop to top up ? What a pain in the ass that must be

Take a route from enfield to Dublin city centre every day - how could it be done in an EV ?

I'd love to rent one for a week to see how it would work out

ELM327 wrote: »

Lots of innaccurate assumptions there.
Leaf can take 4 hours from empty (with the6.6kw) or 8 hours from empty (with the 3.3kw). The range is not 200km, it's 110-130. However it is likely that the vast majority of the charging is done incidentally - ie without you waiting for the car. I do ~1000km per week. I usually have no more than 3 fast charges in that week when I am waiting for the car. Often it's just 10 minutes to get a quick topup on the way home. At 45 minutes charging per 1000km, thats approximately 18 hours charging time per year. A far stretch from 28 days.


My leaf does most of its charging when parked at work or in my drive.

ELM327

Not on a high horse mate. It's my reality.

60 km to work. Home charging. Work charging. No charging when I'm waiting, I always get into a fully charged EV.

Only when I drive longer than 120km do i need to charge.

Enfield to dublin city is less than 100km so no hassle in an EV.


PS - please point out even one sentence of nonsense?

zilog_jones

kyote00 wrote: »

- At 45 minutes charging per 1000km ...
What Physics makes this possible ? If this is true then I'dl buy a brand new EV car in the morning

He's talking about the amount of time he's actually waiting for it to charge. Most of his charging is either at work or at home.

Not too familiar with commuting to Dublin, but Enfield looks like 40-50 km away depending on route - an easily achievable round trip with a 30 kWh Leaf or Ioniq and daily charging (overnight).

Wibbs

kyote00 wrote: »

Take a route from enfield to Dublin city centre every day - how could it be done in an EV ?

Sounds like just the type of journey for a leccy car TBH.

kyote00

1) The range is not 200km, it's 110-130.

Nissan website indicates either (124miles /199km) or (155 miles/249km)
https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/leaf/charging-range.html

2) At 45 minutes charging per 1000km
This is extreme massaging of the figures....In reality, you can stop more frequency to fast charge to 80%....

3) Not on a high horse mate.
I'm not your mate

ELM327 wrote: »

PS - please point out even one sentence of nonsense?

kyote00

If the range is 110-130 then am I not right on the edge of range ?

So will I either need to stop somewhere or find a free charge point in town during the day ?

Wibbs wrote: »

Sounds like just the type of journey for a leccy car TBH.

kyote00

Its about 90km round trip...
If the range is 110-130 then am I not right on the edge of range ?

PS. I also carry tools (about 28kg - don't ask) one or twice a week - I assume this will impact range also ?

zilog_jones wrote: »

He's talking about the amount of time he's actually waiting for it to charge. Most of his charging is either at work or at home.

Not too familiar with commuting to Dublin, but Enfield looks like 40-50 km away depending on route - an easily achievable round trip with a 30 kWh Leaf or Ioniq and daily charging (overnight).

tayto lover

Anyone know much about second-hand EV's? Are they expensive, reliable, hard or expensive to maintain or service etc.