Marathon Improvers Thread.

hot buttered scones · 22-05-2017 6:49pm #1

From reading the training logs, I can see there are plenty of people either training for marathons or intend to start training for an autumn marathon fairly soon. We have a Novices thread and a Sub 3 support thread, so why not a thread for those of us in between?

I think I may have come across a similar thread on this forum before, but rather then revive a zombie thread I thought I'd create a new one. (Mods: I hope that's ok)

I just thought this we be a good place for people to discuss what plans they're using, what their goals are for the long and short term, give a bit of support and advice etc. and hopefully create a bit of traffic.

I'll start with myself I suppose - I'm currently training tapering for Cork in 2 weeks time. I've based my training around the Meno Plan:

Meno Plan

Training so far

Once that's done and dusted, I'll have a few weeks recovery and then it's onwards towards DCM 2017 using one of the P+D plans. I haven't quite decided what to do yet - I'm looking at the up to 70 plans, but doing mesocycle 1 from the 12 week plan and then doing the rest from the 18 week plan - this gives a 14 week plan which really suits me time wise around recovery from Cork and summer holidays.

Anyway, enough about me. What's everyone else doing?

Murph_D · 22-05-2017 8:39pm

Good thread idea, HBS.

Just a suggestion based on my own experience. I think you'll be fine with the 12-week version of P&D given you are coming off a recent marathon cycle. It's a bit more intense than the longer version which helps to keep things fresh in a multi-marathon year. Good luck with it - all the better if you can swing the 70 mile version.

Just kicking off a HM cycle myself, using one of the Hanson plans. Won't be targeting a marathon this year although will run Dublin for fun (mostly). May or may not have another go at Donadea 50k next year - good way to keep things going over winter, all the more so if not coming straight off a DCM cycle. That will most likely be a souped up version of P&D or perhaps one of the Daniels marathon plans.

JohnDozer · 22-05-2017 9:15pm

Excellent idea! I'll certainly make use of this. 3 botched efforts behind me, all hovering around the 4 hour mark, breaking it once. I'll be looking to train towards knocking a 30 minute sized chunk off that in DCM 17. I think I have P&D up to 55 chosen as the plan. I don't have enough confidence at 26.2 to have a go at Hanson. I don't have a strong enough commitment to S&C work to push the mileage up enough to have a go the up to 70 mile P&D plan just yet.

I really like the concept and the structure of the Hanson plans. I just don't know when I'll get to use them. Maybe this time next year for a half, and then on to the full version.

Looking forward to the thread, perfect timing too!

Murph_D · 22-05-2017 9:45pm

JohnDozer wrote: »

Excellent idea! I'll certainly make use of this. 3 botched efforts behind me, all hovering around the 4 hour mark, breaking it once. I'll be looking to train towards knocking a 30 minute sized chunk off that in DCM 17. I think I have P&D up to 55 chosen as the plan. I don't have enough confidence at 26.2 to have a go at Hanson. I don't have a strong enough commitment to S&C work to push the mileage up enough to have a go the up to 70 mile P&D plan just yet.

I really like the concept and the structure of the Hanson plans. I just don't know when I'll get to use them. Maybe this time next year for a half, and then on to the full version.

Looking forward to the thread, perfect timing too!

How did you train for the 'botched' marathons? Are you sure P&D is the right approach for you?

JohnDozer · 22-05-2017 10:00pm

Murph_D wrote: »

How did you train for the 'botched' marathons? Are you sure P&D is the right approach for you?

My first effort was Cork 2012. I don't recall knowing much about training plans. I think whatever I did was quite basic and involved getting out for longer runs most weeks. Pretty much one paced running, 25-30 miles per week. 4:09:xx

Trained for Dublin 2014 after a sedentary 2013 using the BAA intermediate plan. I had been going really well up until a back injury playing soccer on a beach in Kerry the day after a half marathon PB early September. I was bedridden for a week and it took a while to get back running gingerly again, losing three weeks training at a critical time. Got to the start line in reasonable shape but it was a difficult day weather wise and the lack of stamina told and I ran walked from mile 16. 4:07:35

Used the same plan while training for Limerick 2015. I don't recall much in particular about this plan and cycle, apart from it going better than the previous two. I did miss a couple of the long runs at some point, I remember work going a bit crazy sometime about 5/6 weeks out. I'll have to go back and give some closer scrutiny to the cycles on Starva. I do recall reviewing it at the time and thinking my LSR's were done too quick, pretty much at MP. The target was 3:45/3:50 if I recall. 3:59:39

I smoked 20+ a day during all three. I don't anymore.

I would have been playing GAA through most of it, although playing as a goalkeeper and training only sporadically. Prone to the occasional (regular at times) game of 5 a side.

I don't have a great track record of following a plan well, and also making silly choices, suffering from poor impulse control. I feel better equipped now. I feel the P&D plan matches what I'm able to give right now.

I am open to better options though....

Edit: maybe botched is not correct. I got back what I put into it.

jaggiebunnet · 22-05-2017 10:35pm

2 Cork Marathons 3:45 and 3:32, 2nd one using P&D 55. Good plan stuck to it fairly well but deviated sometimes due to life - the weather on the day in Cork killed any sub 3.30 I was aiming for. Going to use the same plan again, be less ambitious with the time but stick more rigidly to the paces (ie if supposed to be MP do MP!!) and see how i get on in Dublin.

hot buttered scones · 23-05-2017 9:51am

Murph_D wrote: »

Good thread idea, HBS.

Just a suggestion based on my own experience. I think you'll be fine with the 12-week version of P&D given you are coming off a recent marathon cycle. It's a bit more intense than the longer version which helps to keep things fresh in a multi-marathon year. Good luck with it - all the better if you can swing the 70 mile version.

Just kicking off a HM cycle myself, using one of the Hanson plans. Won't be targeting a marathon this year although will run Dublin for fun (mostly). May or may not have another go at Donadea 50k next year - good way to keep things going over winter, all the more so if not coming straight off a DCM cycle. That will most likely be a souped up version of P&D or perhaps one of the Daniels marathon plans.

I saw that plan on your log - it looks good. I'm tempted by Donadea myself, but I know full well I'll be wrecked after 2 marathon cycles back to back, so I'll probably close out the year with recovery and base building. I'm going to have to see how Cork goes before I set a target for Dublin, but for 2018 I've half a notion of running Frankfurt - with an eye on on of the other marathon training threads.

Of course I have Cork and Dublin to do first!!

So what are you going to do between Charleville and Dublin? Just a few MP session and some longer runs to build endurance for the distance?

hot buttered scones · 23-05-2017 10:03am

JohnDozer wrote: »

My first effort was Cork 2012. I don't recall knowing much about training plans. I think whatever I did was quite basic and involved getting out for longer runs most weeks. Pretty much one paced running, 25-30 miles per week. 4:09:xx

Trained for Dublin 2014 after a sedentary 2013 using the BAA intermediate plan. I had been going really well up until a back injury playing soccer on a beach in Kerry the day after a half marathon PB early September. I was bedridden for a week and it took a while to get back running gingerly again, losing three weeks training at a critical time. Got to the start line in reasonable shape but it was a difficult day weather wise and the lack of stamina told and I ran walked from mile 16. 4:07:35

Used the same plan while training for Limerick 2015. I don't recall much in particular about this plan and cycle, apart from it going better than the previous two. I did miss a couple of the long runs at some point, I remember work going a bit crazy sometime about 5/6 weeks out. I'll have to go back and give some closer scrutiny to the cycles on Starva. I do recall reviewing it at the time and thinking my LSR's were done too quick, pretty much at MP. The target was 3:45/3:50 if I recall. 3:59:39

I smoked 20+ a day during all three. I don't anymore.

I would have been playing GAA through most of it, although playing as a goalkeeper and training only sporadically. Prone to the occasional (regular at times) game of 5 a side.

I don't have a great track record of following a plan well, and also making silly choices, suffering from poor impulse control. I feel better equipped now. I feel the P&D plan matches what I'm able to give right now.

I am open to better options though....

Edit: maybe botched is not correct. I got back what I put into it.

Well you've packed in the fags so that's a start - well done on that. You've identified an error in your training - running your LSRs too fast, so if you work on that you'll see results. One mistake I made for Dublin 2015 was setting too hard a target and also running too fast on my easy days. I trained for 3:30 and ran 3:38:39 - with a very painful last 6 miles. Pulling away from the pacers at halfway or so didn't help. The way is see it, if I'd have set out to run 3:35 I'd have just about made it. If I'd have gone out with the 3:40 pacers and pulled away from them with 10 miles to go or something, I'd have ran a similar time as I did, but had a much better race.

As for the P+D - it is a tough plan. If you are going to follow it then read the book and follow the pace guides. Do your recovery runs at recovery pace, even though it may seem painfully slow at times. The first 3 weeks or so of the plan are easy enough with only 4 days running, but it ramps up fairly quickly. I found the LT sessions to be tough - I couldn't finish the 7@LT session, but the I wonder if I was running my LT pace to quickly. Overall though, it's a good plan. The regular 100m strides on recovery days make those days a bit interesting and I think they helped greatly with leg turnover and base speed.

hot buttered scones · 23-05-2017 10:40am

This is just something I've been messing around with for Dublin.

Various DCM 2017 plans

Ignore the days/nights headings - they just relate to my job.

First is a sort of modified meno plan. Then there's a plan where I was trying to incorporate the Steve Way BAC session for VLM into the meno plan, but I gave up. There's various P+D plans that I've been trying to fit around work. P+D 12/18 is mesocycle 1+2 from the 12 week plan and mesocycle 3+4 from the 18 week plan. P+D 18/12 is Mesocycle 1 from the 12 week plan and then the rest of the 18 week plan.
I've put in the 12 week McMillan plan from Strava. I followed this plan for DCM 2015, and found it tough to be honest, but then again I'd often race on the Wednesday night in between sessions and I also ran my easy runs too fast - I think McMillan's easy paces are a bit on the speedy side, although I think I went off goal pace instead of current pace!!
The Hadley plan I got from here:
http://www.mprunning.com
It seemed interesting at first, but then I don;t really know anyone else who followed it, so I thought I'd stick with the tried and tested P+D for now.
The Hanson plan is in there to - I'd love to try it, but I don't think it will fit in with my schedule
Anyway, I'm just sticking these up here in case someone will find them useful. Some of them are still works in progress so the may look a little strange. I'm thinking of going with one of the up to 70 P+D plans with one caveat - if it's too much then I'll look at dropping miles from the MLRs during the week. I could also just decide to do something completely different a the last minute too!

JohnDozer · 25-05-2017 9:14am

Murph_D wrote: »

Are you sure P&D is the right approach for you?

Could I ask you to expand on this particular aspect if you don't mind?

What are the factors that a person should look at when trying to choose the right plan? Since the post the other night where I gave a very brief overview of my marathon experiences, I've had a little bit of time to have a look at Strava (not in a great amount of detail mind), but enough to give me a few pointers about what may have gone wrong...

From my own perspective, if I'm honest I probably do have a bit of difficulty in sticking rigidly to plans. That is reflected in the Strava record of my other experiences. That is also reflective of my approach to life in general. I see these things more as guidelines, rather than things that are exactly followed. I do understand that there is science and experiences of many others underpinning all these plans. I do also believe that there is many different ways to skin a cat.

Sometimes my job is settled and I can wrap all the other parts of my life around it neatly. It also has the potential to go bat crazy for a couple of months or weeks, and everything else has to be wrapped around that. It can't be predicted, but the likelihood of getting through a full marathon cycle without some bit of interruption is unlikely.

I guess I'm now angling away from P&D following on from your question. I've had a look at all the different options that the OP kindly put up in Excel format. The one that immediately catches my eye is the Meno modified plan. My instinct looks at it and goes:- long runs... tick, lots of MP work... tick and then sees sufficient scope for me to add in an extra workout if I feel like it on a particular day when the body feels good, the mind is up for it and the route is one that lends itself to having a good running day.... but the plan says not to....

This is the thing that will ultimately defeat me. As an example, we were on for a club run last night of 10 miles, in two halves of 5 miles each with a few minutes in between. I really wanted to take it easy enough in the 8:00 to 8:30 pace. Other were in agreement, but no-one stuck to it, myself included. We ended up doing the 10 mile (hilly) route in 77 minutes on a hot evening. I could have done without that after the weekend efforts ( a tough half marathon), but just couldn't help myself.

I guess that's it. I lack the discipline to put the plan as the foremost priority, rather than prioritising my enjoyment of the run that is currently happening... So maybe I need to work on my discipline before embarking on an ambitious plan. The marathon requires discipline, so how do I train myself to be disciplined. Is it to keep making mistakes?

Maybe I should pick a plan that should give me some scope, but will also gauge how well I can stick to a plan with less elements than most.

So Meno for DCM 17, P&D for Spring 18 and Hanson for October 18 :-)

Thoughts welcome!

boydkev · 25-05-2017 9:28am

I am having the same dilemma as to which plan i should look at following for this years DCM. I ran Last years and planned for a time of 3.45 but that all ended when i started to get cramp in my chest at mile 22, finished 4.00. I was not following a plan last year and just getting the miles in during the week and LSR's at the weekend. I think not having structured training was my downfall.
So for this year i have been looking at the HH Intermediate 1 or 2.
I am currently running about 35m and my target time for DCM is 3.30, I know it is a big chunk of time off last years time but i think with the right plan its possible.

Anyone have thoughts on the HH Intermediate 1 or 2 plans?

hot buttered scones · 25-05-2017 9:41am

boydkev wrote: »

I am having the same dilemma as to which plan i should look at following for this years DCM. I ran Last years and planned for a time of 3.45 but that all ended when i started to get cramp in my chest at mile 22, finished 4.00. I was not following a plan last year and just getting the miles in during the week and LSR's at the weekend. I think not having structured training was my downfall.
So for this year i have been looking at the HH Intermediate 1 or 2.
I am currently running about 35m and my target time for DCM is 3.30, I know it is a big chunk of time off last years time but i think with the right plan its possible.

Anyone have thoughts on the HH Intermediate 1 or 2 plans?

Do you currently do any speedwork/intervals or tempo runs? Have you ever done them? What are your times for other races? How many days a week can you run?I can't comment on the HH plans having never used one, but I can see that there are no sessions in those plans, so your just basically getting the miles in again. I'm not saying that won't work for you, but I'd rather a plan with at least some marathon paced sessions in it.

boydkev · 25-05-2017 9:57am

hot buttered scones wrote: »

Do you currently do any speedwork/intervals or tempo runs? Have you ever done them? What are your times for other races? How many days a week can you run?I can't comment on the HH plans having never used one, but I can see that there are no sessions in those plans, so your just basically getting the miles in again. I'm not saying that won't work for you, but I'd rather a plan with at least some marathon paced sessions in it.

I currently dont do speedwork/intervals and that is why i looked at a plan with just more mileage basis. I can run 5 days a week.
With regard to my times for races this year,
5K - 20.32
10K - 41.41
10M - 70.34
Half - 1.36 (done during 25k race)

Looking at the HH Intermediate 1 & 2 there are a few pace runs on the saturday before the LSR on sunday.

The Davestator · 25-05-2017 10:00am

Good thread.

Thinking of DCM 17 to see if I can take 11 mins off my Barcelona time from March and nip under 3:30.
Looking at this plan and any feedback very welcome.

http://marathontrainingacademy.com/member/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/3.30Marathon_Training_Plan.pdf

As I cycle commute to work, I'm trying to keep the running days to 4 as I already do 10 cycle sessions of 40 mins per week.

hot buttered scones · 25-05-2017 10:15am

JohnDozer wrote: »

Could I ask you to expand on this particular aspect if you don't mind?

What are the factors that a person should look at when trying to choose the right plan? Since the post the other night where I gave a very brief overview of my marathon experiences, I've had a little bit of time to have a look at Strava (not in a great amount of detail mind), but enough to give me a few pointers about what may have gone wrong...

From my own perspective, if I'm honest I probably do have a bit of difficulty in sticking rigidly to plans. That is reflected in the Strava record of my other experiences. That is also reflective of my approach to life in general. I see these things more as guidelines, rather than things that are exactly followed. I do understand that there is science and experiences of many others underpinning all these plans. I do also believe that there is many different ways to skin a cat.

Sometimes my job is settled and I can wrap all the other parts of my life around it neatly. It also has the potential to go bat crazy for a couple of months or weeks, and everything else has to be wrapped around that. It can't be predicted, but the likelihood of getting through a full marathon cycle without some bit of interruption is unlikely.

I guess I'm now angling away from P&D following on from your question. I've had a look at all the different options that the OP kindly put up in Excel format. The one that immediately catches my eye is the Meno modified plan. My instinct looks at it and goes:- long runs... tick, lots of MP work... tick and then sees sufficient scope for me to add in an extra workout if I feel like it on a particular day when the body feels good, the mind is up for it and the route is one that lends itself to having a good running day.... but the plan says not to....

This is the thing that will ultimately defeat me. As an example, we were on for a club run last night of 10 miles, in two halves of 5 miles each with a few minutes in between. I really wanted to take it easy enough in the 8:00 to 8:30 pace. Other were in agreement, but no-one stuck to it, myself included. We ended up doing the 10 mile (hilly) route in 77 minutes on a hot evening. I could have done without that after the weekend efforts ( a tough half marathon), but just couldn't help myself.

I guess that's it. I lack the discipline to put the plan as the foremost priority, rather than prioritising my enjoyment of the run that is currently happening... So maybe I need to work on my discipline before embarking on an ambitious plan. The marathon requires discipline, so how do I train myself to be disciplined. Is it to keep making mistakes?

Maybe I should pick a plan that should give me some scope, but will also gauge how well I can stick to a plan with less elements than most.

So Meno for DCM 17, P&D for Spring 18 and Hanson for October 18 :-)

Thoughts welcome!

First off, you need the discipline!! There's no point in haring off on a 10 mile club run for example the if your supposed to be doing a short recovery run because your other workouts will suffer. Discipline is simply willpower. You also have to remember that by sacrificing something now (i.e. not doing that enjoyable run) you will receive a much larger payoff down the line. My experience of the McMillan plan - well, I raced a good bit when doing it and also did all the sessions and was left feeling very burnt out after about 8 weeks, and I feel my performance in DCM 15 suffered. DCM 14 - I set unrealistic goals, picked a training plan that was too hard, ramped up my mileage too quickly and got injured. I was out after the R'n'R half and all because I had no patience. I didn't run for 6 weeks, and spent another 4 weeks running very very low mileage so I missed what was going be my first marathon. So I suppose you could I learned the hard way about discipline.
The second thing is - I know the common refrain is "stick to the plan". However the truth is most plans are really templates to work off - I suppose the more knowledge you gain, the more you begin to understand how to make changes to suit yourself. I followed P+D 18 weeks up to 55 for Dublin last year, but I do shift work. Sometimes this needed me to get up at 5 am to get a 2 hour run in before work. Sometimes I needed to swap days around so I wasn't doing a really hard session or a 3 hour long run in between night shifts. Or I might have to go in on overtime or something and change things around. But I made sure not to do hard days back to back and get sufficient recovery etc.

I followed the Meno plan for Cork this year - at least a version of it anyway. When I started training for Cork, things were really busy at home and work. i Picked this plan because it really had only 3 prescribed sessions - Wednesday, Thursdays recovery and Sundays long run. I just ran as much or as little as I could or needed to on the other days to make up the mileage -I'd throw in a few strides or short hill sprints maybe one day a week. I moved my long runs to Wednesdays for a few weeks because it suited my schedule and I had to drop a one or tow of the sessions because I got sick. I even made some changes to the final few weeks (after seeking advice) because I felt fatigued.

This is what I actually did (so far). The changes I made were done to suit me and my schedule:

CCM 17 log

For completeness here is the original Meno Plan as it was when I first got the link. I've made no changes to this version. The explanations of the workouts contuse links to the original posts. I can't remember who actually put this spreadheet together in the first place - suffice to say it wasn't me:

Original Meno plan

One final thing about the "book" plans. Buy the book!! The books will give way more information on how to do each session and will also give you advice on the best way to modify the plans if you need too (although I think the Hanson plan is fairly rigid). P+D has a whole section on it, if my memory serves me.

tldr: discipline is willpower, the meno plan gives great flexibility in my experience.

hot buttered scones · 25-05-2017 10:24am

boydkev wrote: »

I currently dont do speedwork/intervals and that is why i looked at a plan with just more mileage basis. I can run 5 days a week.
With regard to my times for races this year,
5K - 20.32
10K - 41.41
10M - 70.34
Half - 1.36 (done during 25k race)

Looking at the HH Intermediate 1 & 2 there are a few pace runs on the saturday before the LSR on sunday.

Your times are pretty close to mine and your 10k time looks to be the best out of them. 25k race - Great Railway Run by any chance?

Honestly, I think you'll get more out of it if you even do just one session a week. From a 35 mile a week base and those times I see no reason why you couldn't follow a plan with a bit more structure to it. If your hell bent on Hal Higdon, why not look at one of the advanced programmes? Advanced 1 has only 1 session per week, but it has 6 days of running. Some of the shorter runs could be done as recovery runs.

paddydriver · 25-05-2017 3:08pm

Thanks HBS for the thread.. probably fits right in with where I can get some help and also maybe give some input. Was DCM 2016 Novice and obviously interested to see how the DCM 2017 Novice thread goes.. and will be there for it myself in Oct hopefully too.

I eeked out a 3:59 in DCM 2016 and then recently upped this to a 3:41 in Limerick end of April. Putting it out there..I can tentatively say my target is a BQ time for April 2019. Will be 45 next May and then aiming to see what we can do. 3:25 is time currently for 45-50 but I would be needing a 3:22ish most likely.. Ambitious, Yes! Achievable.. well that remains to be seen.

I followed the Boards Modified plan for DCM 2016 and comfortably got that in and went well over on the miles. I did find the last few DCM miles very very tough and I expended everything to get in under the 4:00.. and I paid for it in the hours afterwards. Limerick last month was a far better experience and I felt strong over last few miles so that has given me confidence to go better.. maybe I had an exceptionally good day or maybe my training worked.. and its this last bit that I move on to.

I am not the most disciplined for following a plan but I do like to get the miles in. Since DCM 2016 I basically just kept up the miles and did lots of hills.. this latter part is what I think benefited me most in Limerick. I just like going out running, sometimes maybe too fast, and I enjoy hills and I love the long runs.. having 3 young kids its nice to get away early in the morning to do lots of miles and then get back to enjoy the day with them knowing that my Sat long run is done.

I honestly don't have a clue where to go from here and what I need to be doing to get my times down further. I know I need to start doing more strength and conditioning work as I am starting to get some quad and knee pain more often again, and some non running work is needed there. For now I am just running and keeping up the hills when possible. I always try get my long run in at the weekend.. though I have missed a few in May, well 10-12M as compared to usual 17-20M. My average pace has dramatically improved but possibly that's a bad thing or maybe I just run faster now.. not sure.

My times would be around the following:

5k - 21:07 - 2nd half a 10k recently.. Ran 1st half with my daughter and then went for it! Think I have a sub 20 in me
10k - 46:00ish.. have not done a 10k race recently other than above.. Target would be sub 45 or better this year
Half - 1:45ish - No half's recently but thinking I can do a 1:41-42
Full - 3:41 - Limerick 2017

That's me.. Happy to help and also Happy to take help..
Thanks

Oh.. I am booked in the Dublin IM Half in August. Some cross training required... Lots of swimming too!

S.L.F. · 25-05-2017 6:53pm

Great idea for a thread.

At the moment I'm trying to break 50 mins 10 km so that
I can train for a sub 4 hr marathon.

I'm doing between 20 to 30 miles a week at the moment.

I'm not sure what plan I'll follow, probably a bit of boards and try to fit in some speed work. First goal though is the 10 km and if I can't manage that then I'll jog around the course for fun.

Megager · 25-05-2017 7:27pm

Brilliant idea for a thread. Like hot buttered scones I'm now tapering for Cork. Relative novice, ran my first marathon in Dublin last year in 3:53, but joined club this year and was hoping to improve. Got half marathon pb down to 1:29:58 in March( those 2 seconds are crucial lol). However I think ive made a serious error in marathon prep by running LSRS too close to my marathon pace. I suppose I'll find out on the day what impact that with have and I'll update here. I reckon it maybe an issue though. At least it is something to work on for Dublin, fitness etc permitting.

El Caballo · 25-05-2017 8:15pm

I'm probably a bit in no man's land as I've made a sub-3 attempt but still have a PB that is a good chunk and probably another cycle away from another attempt. I haven't used any plans from books or certain coaches for any of my marathon attempts in the past. My first marathon was Limerick 2013 where I had only being running about 3 months properly, had no idea how to train and ran about 20 miles a week. That was a painful 4.07 finish.

I joined a club soon after that and jumped in to speed sessions every week and generally did my own thing outside of that. I was a little better read on training and decided to have a pop at redemption for the DCM 13. Training was a lot better this time around as I actually did long runs albeit making a lot of mistakes along the way, as in I'd go out on a Sunday long run and run it as fast as I could. A rough 23 miler about 4 weeks out caused me a lot of recovery problems so I had to take a full break between then and marathon day with only a few very sloggy runs. I actually did feel good by the time raceday came around but lost out on a sizeable chunk of training which hurt my possible finish time. Averaged around 30-35mpw with peak just over 40 and ran 3.15.

My Next attempt was The DCM 2014. Consistency was an issue for the first half of the year but I finally got motoring around June under a plan from the club coach. My training was much better this time around, the volume was pretty much the same as I had used for Dublin the previous year but the balance of intensity was much more manageable. A slight weakness in it now that look back was that I was doing a lot more fast midweek interval sessions when more highend aerobic work so it could've being more specific but my coach was a little concerned about me losing my base speed. The first real mistake I made during this cycle was probably 3 weeks out, similar to DCM 13, I done a 30k@MP workout 3 weeks out. That wasn't quite as mad as the year before but it took a little more out of me than I needed at the time. Finished the 30k in 2:06 picking it up towards the end which was 2:58 marathon pace on already tired legs. That result gave me a lot of confidence going into the race that I could go sub-3. As a good few might remember, the weather on raceday was freakish for October in Ireland. Hot, Humid and windy but that's not really an excuse as the marathon isn't just about you and the clock, it's a race against all the elements and your body on the day. I made the mistake of going out at sub-3 pace when I was probably borderline on a perfect day. Struggled early on with the humidity and strong headwinds around mile 10 and start slowing just after halfway. My knee gave out at about 21 miles and I limped home in 3:56.

The marathon is one unforgiving mofo:D so I'd like to get it right just once so I'm going to have a crack off the DCM again this year and hoping to get a PB and that train rolling again as well. Once again, I'm not going to use a direct plan although writing this makes me think I should:pac:. I want to start getting more involved with club training again so I'll probably try and fit those in with my schedule which will probably be based around Lydiard. Decent volume with alot of highend aerobic running. Mainly a diet of long runs and steady to MP runs mid-week.

My PB's:

5k: 18:34(2013)
10k: 39:45(2014)
10m: 65:3x (2014)
Half: 1:26.26 (2013)
Mar: 3:15.29 (2013)

Well aged at this stage when they really should be a lot faster. Need to get that PB feeling back again so hopefully I can get the ball rolling again:)

denis b · 25-05-2017 8:23pm

Absolute top class idea M with this thread and probably the motivation I require to start planning for a DCM 2017 assault. Have 3 marathons done in my current life: Belfast '14 4:11, Belfast '15 DNF and DCM '15 in 3:54. Spent most of 2016 on a climbing GAP year but kept the mileage ticking over bagging a new 5km and 10km pb.

Plan for this year in DCM is to go 3:3X. Its achievable and carrying a bit of form (new 5km (20:32) and 10km (43:41)pbs in April/May). Have a winter and and spring of decent progressive endurance runs and longer midweek runs under my belt and mileage will be heading to 70+ kms a week now. The DNF for Belfast '15 came after leaving my race day run on the training course by running one of my last long progressive runs far too fast (P&D). Brilliant feeling, but I never recovered from it.

Lesson learnt and went back to simple no nonsense Boards Plan finishing in reasonably good shape and easily breaking the 4:00 hr target. Was happy with that as a relatively new to running, heavier and older runner.

I am veering towards P&D again as I feel that the extra experience over the last 2 years give me something to work with.

kit3 · 25-05-2017 8:43pm

Great idea for a tread. Out with a dose of plantar fasciitis at the moment but would be interested if it improves. Best of luck with your training

Murph_D · 25-05-2017 9:22pm

JohnDozer wrote: »

Could I ask you to expand on this particular aspect if you don't mind?

What are the factors that a person should look at when trying to choose the right plan? Since the post the other night where I gave a very brief overview of my marathon experiences, I've had a little bit of time to have a look at Strava (not in a great amount of detail mind), but enough to give me a few pointers about what may have gone wrong...

From my own perspective, if I'm honest I probably do have a bit of difficulty in sticking rigidly to plans. That is reflected in the Strava record of my other experiences. That is also reflective of my approach to life in general. I see these things more as guidelines, rather than things that are exactly followed. I do understand that there is science and experiences of many others underpinning all these plans. I do also believe that there is many different ways to skin a cat.

Sometimes my job is settled and I can wrap all the other parts of my life around it neatly. It also has the potential to go bat crazy for a couple of months or weeks, and everything else has to be wrapped around that. It can't be predicted, but the likelihood of getting through a full marathon cycle without some bit of interruption is unlikely.

I guess I'm now angling away from P&D following on from your question. I've had a look at all the different options that the OP kindly put up in Excel format. The one that immediately catches my eye is the Meno modified plan. My instinct looks at it and goes:- long runs... tick, lots of MP work... tick and then sees sufficient scope for me to add in an extra workout if I feel like it on a particular day when the body feels good, the mind is up for it and the route is one that lends itself to having a good running day.... but the plan says not to....

This is the thing that will ultimately defeat me. As an example, we were on for a club run last night of 10 miles, in two halves of 5 miles each with a few minutes in between. I really wanted to take it easy enough in the 8:00 to 8:30 pace. Other were in agreement, but no-one stuck to it, myself included. We ended up doing the 10 mile (hilly) route in 77 minutes on a hot evening. I could have done without that after the weekend efforts ( a tough half marathon), but just couldn't help myself.

I guess that's it. I lack the discipline to put the plan as the foremost priority, rather than prioritising my enjoyment of the run that is currently happening... So maybe I need to work on my discipline before embarking on an ambitious plan. The marathon requires discipline, so how do I train myself to be disciplined. Is it to keep making mistakes?

Maybe I should pick a plan that should give me some scope, but will also gauge how well I can stick to a plan with less elements than most.

So Meno for DCM 17, P&D for Spring 18 and Hanson for October 18 :-)

Thoughts welcome!

I included that comment because I think a lot of people jump into P&D a little early in their marathon careers, and may not make it through the plan, never mind the marathon itself. It's not that it's particularly difficult, more that it assumes a certain level of base mileage and experience. The clue is in the title. It is not a beginners plan. It could be an improvers plan, but not until they have two or three successful marathon cycles behind them, in my opinion.

I was going to suggest the meno plan for you, but I see you've already come around to that way of thinking yourself. The flexibility is good for people with odd schedules. And it has some great sessions that, in my experience for marathons 2, 3 and 4, really helped me to understand what marathon training is all about - something you can then take into a plan like P&D. Meno designed the plan specifically for improvers and it's worked for a lot of people around here - in my case helping me get down to sub 3:30 from a 4-hour-plus debut.

Re doing stuff like 10-mile training runs at close to 10-mile race pace - this is the kind of thing that destroys a good marthon cycle. Getting sucked into tooo-fast club sessions and overtraining is something till simply have to be disciplined about, if there's no sane voice at your club reeling you in. I see it every year at my own club, lads blistering through track and tempo sessions at the wrong pace, and having poor marathons as a result. Some of them get so disheartened you never see them again.

Departing from the plan - any plan - is fine as long as you know what you are doing. But if you don't, you risk wasting four months of hard work, as you've probably found out already. You always need things to go your way on the day anyway if you're going to run a good marathon - stacking the odds against yourself with poor training never works. Which is why it's important, as stated elsewhere here, to read the logic behind the sessions. If you understand the purpose of easy and recovery runs, you should be less likely to replace them with additional sessions that just add stress and lead you towards increased risk of burnout and injury.

You're no novice as you have a good few marathons done, but yet to get to grip with it and get the result you're capable of. Time for a more sensible approach!

Kennyg71 · 25-05-2017 9:57pm

Great thread, have one successful Marathon DCM 2015 3.48 did Dave Carey plan and was orignaly like a lot of people on first Marathon thinking sub 4, so went really well on the day despite going into the training recovering from injury and only been doing 15 or 16 miles a week and only running a year.

Trained well for Cork last year, never missed a session or a time target, but think I was the opposite to some and was too rigid, like taking on a tough session on a Wednesday after PBing in a half on a Sunday, when recovery was order of the day and resulted in injury and DNF in Cork. So have done a few half Marathons since and have another two before Dublin, I intend doing meno plan, but being bit more focused on recovery than hitting every session. Have managed a few long runs without two much bother at planed MP for Dublin, which is 3.30 , really want to just get confidence of a decent Run in Dublin, and I think 3.30 and Meno plan is a good place to start, so looking forward to getting going in July or so and hopefully training will feel like a step back initially after building a bit of running strength over last few months.

Best of luck to every one.

kin9pin · 26-05-2017 12:02am

Great idea for a thread, it's something I feel I need at this point!
I too was a DCM '16 novice. I trained well for that, but had a shin injury 7 weeks out and missed a couple of weeks. On the day I felt great up to mile 16 then faded, quickly, to a 4:20.
Ran London in April. I trained much better for it, following HH IM2 as I thought the pace runs followed by long runs would help my stamina. Ran a 1:46 HM in March without pushing it too much and thought I was a shoe-in for sub 4, but blisters and, strangely enough, stamina again meant I faded after 18 miles to a 4:16.

Currently training for the Clontarf HM, although even now I'm not thinking of this as a PB race. I'm also signed up for DCM again and the meno plan looks really interesting. I like the fact that the weekly mileage is a bit higher and that it's flexible enough for me to fill up the miles with my run to/from work.
My plan for DCM is once again a sub-4, it's becoming a bit of an obsession at this stage, but I'm hoping if I can build up my endurance I can push on a little bit.

Current PB's: 5k 21:46, 5m, 37:53, 10k 48:38 (ages ago), 10m 1:21:xx, HM 1:46:53, M 4:16:45

overthebridge · 26-05-2017 6:23am

Great idea OP.

First marathon was DCM '13. My training was sporadic at best. Limped home in 4.23. Ran it again in '14 and picked up an injury about 7 weeks before and struggled round in 4.41.
It was after this very painful experience I started to take training a little more seriously and managed to get home in 4.02 at DCM '15. From here I joined a club in early 2016 and
started doing intervals/speedwork and my times and fitness improved dramatically. My HM pb went from 1.49 to 1.42 to 1.35 within the next 8 months. I also fell in with a good training
group and a sub 3.30 marathon was begining to look like a possibllity. I managed to break the 4hr hoo doo in Dingle last September on what I had originally planned to be a LSR but my
competitive streak came out and I banged out a 3.50.xx.
So I was all on for a sub 3.30 in DCM '16 but I blew up at mile 19 and shuffled home on 3.38.39 (exactly the same as hot buttered scones).
On analysis after DCM '16 I figured that I didn't do enough MP long runs. I tended to do my them at 830-840 pace. Which in hindsight was
too fast for my target time and not fast enough to count as a MP long run. I could have also left my marathon at mile 22 of Dingle.

I'm going to give DCM '17 a miss this year and I'm doing the Lanzarote full instead. I'll not be racing it. It's more as a box ticking exercise than anything.

Just to add I used an amended version of P&D 55 for DCM last year and I'll probably do the same for Lanzarote. I do like the meno plan too.
I work straight nights and between kids and lack of sleep I have to work hard to get in my runs when needed.

I'm currently training/tapering for Cork HM on the June weekend and I have a 10 miler lined up in Roscommon in early July. All going well I'll pb both or at least one.
Beyond that I'd love to break 3.30 early next year or at least have a good crack at it in DCM '18

Itziger · 26-05-2017 8:44am

kin9pin wrote: »

Great idea for a thread, it's something I feel I need at this point!
I too was a DCM '16 novice. I trained well for that, but had a shin injury 7 weeks out and missed a couple of weeks. On the day I felt great up to mile 16 then faded, quickly, to a 4:20.
Ran London in April. I trained much better for it, following HH IM2 as I thought the pace runs followed by long runs would help my stamina. Ran a 1:46 HM in March without pushing it too much and thought I was a shoe-in for sub 4, but blisters and, strangely enough, stamina again meant I faded after 18 miles to a 4:16.

Currently training for the Clontarf HM, although even now I'm not thinking of this as a PB race. I'm also signed up for DCM again and the meno plan looks really interesting. I like the fact that the weekly mileage is a bit higher and that it's flexible enough for me to fill up the miles with my run to/from work.
My plan for DCM is once again a sub-4, it's becoming a bit of an obsession at this stage, but I'm hoping if I can build up my endurance I can push on a little bit.

Current PB's: 5k 21:46, 5m, 37:53, 10k 48:38 (ages ago), 10m 1:21:xx, HM 1:46:53, M 4:16:45

May I ask, what did you go through Halfway in? Just curious.

cullenswood · 26-05-2017 9:26am

overthebridge wrote: »

Just to add I used an amended version of P&D 55 for DCM last year and I'll probably do the same for Lanzarote. I do like the meno plan too.

What amended version of P&D do you have?

kin9pin · 26-05-2017 9:37am

Itziger wrote: »

May I ask, what did you go through Halfway in? Just curious.

In London I went through halfway in 1:58:38. At that point I really thought I was holding back. I did find London frustrating though, found it very hard to hold a consistent pace as it was so crowded.

kin9pin · 27-05-2017 2:00pm

Quick question on the meno plan. Is there a particular reason the long runs are on a Sunday? I know HH IM2 was all about pace runs on Saturday followed by long on Sunday,but as this plan has the main sessions on Wednesdays I take it I can move the long run to Saturdays, followed by 4-5m easy on Sunday?

hot buttered scones · 27-05-2017 2:10pm

Murph_D wrote: »

I included that comment because I think a lot of people jump into P&D a little early in their marathon careers, and may not make it through the plan, never mind the marathon itself. It's not that it's particularly difficult, more that it assumes a certain level of base mileage and experience. The clue is in the title. It is not a beginners plan. It could be an improvers plan, but not until they have two or three successful marathon cycles behind them, in my opinion.

I was going to suggest the meno plan for you, but I see you've already come around to that way of thinking yourself. The flexibility is good for people with odd schedules. And it has some great sessions that, in my experience for marathons 2, 3 and 4, really helped me to understand what marathon training is all about - something you can then take into a plan like P&D. Meno designed the plan specifically for improvers and it's worked for a lot of people around here - in my case helping me get down to sub 3:30 from a 4-hour-plus debut.

I actually didn't know that the meno plan was designed specifically for improvers (I didn't do my research properly!!). I'd agree with you though that it would make more sense to tackle the meno plan before taking on P+D - even though I did it the other way around!! While I learned a lot about myself from P+D, I think I learned a lot more about marathon training during this cycle - I think I'll be better equipped to take on P+D for Dublin now.

Reading down through the thread I realise I haven't laid out my own PB's or marathon progression:

5k: 19:58 (06/16 - Clonpriest) - had a 5k split of 19:47 in a recent race though.
10k: 41:28 (04/17 - UCC Carmel Lynch)
10 mile: 1:08:53 (03/16 - Ballycotton)
Half: 1:31:52 (09/16 - Charleville)
25k: 1:50:32 (04/16 - Great Railway Run)

Marathons:
Dublin 2014: DNS - Injured by August, out for 6 weeks - too much, too far, too soon.

Cork 2015: 3:49:29 (Used a MyAsics plan - 4 days a week with the odd race as well - ranwell, with a negative split of nearly 10 minutes or so)

Dublin 2015: 3:38:39 (Used the 12 week McMillan Strava plan, and bombed after 20 miles. Goal was 3:30)

PB: Dublin 2016: 3:21:45 (Used 18 week P+D up to 55 plan, almost even splits, tough last 2 miles. Goal 3:22

)

Marathon Improvers Thread.

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