Marathon Improvers Thread.

Wottle

There's two things rattling round my head
1. I'm in a good running place right now, what if marathon training jeopardises this?
2. I only want to do it if I can run sub 3:30, won't really know that until a half in September, so when does the marathon sell out as I definitely won't be registering till after half.

Background
Marathon PB is from Dublin 2008 after only getting back into running around Feb that year (2002 before that) and running the Great Ire 10K in April in 54 mins. I ran 3:37 and it was my 3rd marathon in 9 weeks. Made loads of mistakes, my enthusiasm tends to get the better of me, all guns blazing for a brief period and then I disappear into nothing land.
Any thoughts welcome.

Kennyg71

Wottle wrote: »

There's two things rattling round my head
1. I'm in a good running place right now, what if marathon training jeopardises this?
2. I only want to do it if I can run sub 3:30, won't really know that until a half in September, so when does the marathon sell out as I definitely won't be registering till after half.

Background
Marathon PB is from Dublin 2008 after only getting back into running around Feb that year (2002 before that) and running the Great Ire 10K in April in 54 mins. I ran 3:37 and it was my 3rd marathon in 9 weeks. Made loads of mistakes, my enthusiasm tends to get the better of me, all guns blazing for a brief period and then I disappear into nothing land.
Any thoughts welcome.

You won't really know till you cross the line and finish, that's the best and worst thing about Marathon, big commitment and lots of uncertainty till 26.2xx completed, now you need to decide if it's worth the journey. I think if you pick right plan and train you have a good shot based on your quick improvements over a few months. Best of luck what ever you decide:)

hot buttered scones

JohnDozer wrote: »

I think this is the element of the marathon training I'm most looking forward to this time around. I do have a recollection of doing some MP tempo sessions, along with speedwork intervals and long runs on other efforts, but nothing like the volume of MP miles on this plan. I'd imagine it lends itself to a great confidence in the ability to hold the pace when race day comes around?

I'll let you know on Sunday.

hot buttered scones

I came across theses Steve Way BAC sessions while back:

Steve Way blogpost

I searched on this forum for something similiar and found the in AMK's training log:

AMK log

which links to here:

http://www.bournemouthac.co.uk/training/BAC_Marathon_Sessions_2016.pdf

These look like great sessions. I made half an attempt to incorporate them into the meno plan for Dublin, but gave up half way through. What do ye think? Would one of these sessions plus a long run or long run with "stuff" be enough or should there be one more LT or Tempo effort during the week as well?
I know I said I was doing P+D, but I think If I could put the BAC sessions into some sort of coherent plan I'd do that instead.

kin9pin

Wottle wrote: »

2. I only want to do it if I can run sub 3:30, won't really know that until a half in September, so when does the marathon sell out as I definitely won't be registering till after half.

I think it sold out around 10th August last year and they then had a waiting list. Pretty sure I saw something a few days ago that 10,500 had already registered for this year.

hot buttered scones

Wottle wrote: »

There's two things rattling round my head
1. I'm in a good running place right now, what if marathon training jeopardises this?
2. I only want to do it if I can run sub 3:30, won't really know that until a half in September, so when does the marathon sell out as I definitely won't be registering till after half.

Background
Marathon PB is from Dublin 2008 after only getting back into running around Feb that year (2002 before that) and running the Great Ire 10K in April in 54 mins. I ran 3:37 and it was my 3rd marathon in 9 weeks. Made loads of mistakes, my enthusiasm tends to get the better of me, all guns blazing for a brief period and then I disappear into nothing land.
Any thoughts welcome.

Pull the trigger now and register. Pick a plan and get stuck in. Commit to it, plan for it, train for it. Run the half and you should see signs of improvement from marathon training alone. You might surprise yourself. What's the worse that could happen? Do any of your recent race times point to 3:30 marathon?

Kennyg71

hot buttered scones wrote: »

I came across theses Steve Way BAC sessions while back:

Steve Way blogpost

I searched on this forum for something similiar and found the in AMK's training log:

AMK log

which links to here:

http://www.bournemouthac.co.uk/training/BAC_Marathon_Sessions_2016.pdf

These look like great sessions. I made half an attempt to incorporate them into the meno plan for Dublin, but gave up half way through. What do ye think? Would one of these sessions plus a long run or long run with "stuff" be enough or should there be one more LT or Tempo effort during the week as well?
I know I said I was doing P+D, but I think If I could put the BAC sessions into some sort of coherent plan I'd do that instead.

Where you changing Wednesday session for SW session.

hot buttered scones

Kennyg71 wrote: »

Where you changing Wednesday session for SW session.

Yeah, that's what I did - all I did was stick the runs into a spreadsheet. The meno plan is 18 weeks long and SW has 15 weeks of Sessions, so I had a bit more to do wrt working in recovery from Cork and making sure I was running at least 15 at the weekend before starting the plan.

I was thinking of maybe doing the odd parkrun too when I was off on a Saturday morning -which might only be two or three times over the course of the plan.

If you look here http://www.steveway.co.uk/?page_id=864 you can see how the man himself did it for VLM13, but obviously he's a different breed altogether, so there's no way I'd be attempting anything like that!!

Kennyg71

hot buttered scones wrote: »

Yeah, that's what I did - all I did was stick the runs into a spreadsheet. The meno plan is 18 weeks long and SW has 15 weeks of Sessions, so I had a bit more to do wrt working in recovery from Cork and making sure I was running at least 15 at the weekend before starting the plan.

I was thinking of maybe doing the odd parkrun too when I was off on a Saturday morning -which might only be two or three times over the course of the plan.

If you look here http://www.steveway.co.uk/?page_id=864 you can see how the man himself did it for VLM13, but obviously he's a different breed altogether, so there's no way I'd be attempting anything like that!!

On my fist Marathon cycle, there was a Parkrun at tempo effort with w/u & c/d mile before an easy LR, think these where a benift and definitely prepared legs for the second half of the Marathon, just being used to that tired leg feeling that comes in latter part of LR, especially having given some effort the previous run.
Maybe I'll experiment a bit more after this cycle, but think I'll stick with tried and tested for this one.

jaggiebunnet

just registered for Dublin -- sub 3.30 attempt here we go. Done P&D for cork last year and did 3.32 heat got to me i have to admit. will follow same plan this year, maybe not as aggressive for MP - was attempting a 3.15 last year!

clickerquicklic

Hi guys , just having a read of this thread good luck all.
My own story is I ran a marathon in 2007 off not much training and ran 3:55 ish ( can't remember exactly just happy to be under the 4 hours at the time) .
Between 2007 - 2015 I did little or no regular running. I started running consistently 3 days a week from about mid 2016 and have kept it up till now so I am as fit as I have ever been. So I took the plunge and signed up for Dublin, exactly 10 years after my one and only marathon I'm hoping to break 3:20 (that might be a tad optimistic).

My pb's are - 5k 18:45 / 10k 40:20 (both of them are from this calendar year) haven't ran any other race distances yet.
My weekly training looks like this
Monday Rest
Tuesday 10km easy
Wednesday bike to work 30k round trip
Thursday bike to work 30k and interval session 12*400 and 3k warm up
Friday bike to work 30k
Saturday Rest
Sunday Half marathon slow
I've ran a half marathon at relaxed pace the last 4 Sundays in a row I did these in 1hr 44mins.

My plan is to keep going as I am and gradually increase the long run , do the race series and the 3/4 marathon in Athlone as my longest run. My only concern is I am not running enough? Is sub 3:30 a more realistic target? I could add another day running just not sure where to fit it in . Thanks

denis b

Murph_D wrote: »

What kind of sessions do people feel have brought them on over the first few marathons?

For me the progression runs certainly leave a very positive impression. Always feel as though I could manage plenty more of that. Have been keeping a sensible DCM 17 time in mind to see how a faster finish on the progression run feels at an even faster pace. Appreciate that it is an apple and oranges comparison but it sits well with me for now.

Kennyg71

clickerquicklic wrote: »

Hi guys , just having a read of this thread good luck all.
My own story is I ran a marathon in 2007 off not much training and ran 3:55 ish ( can't remember exactly just happy to be under the 4 hours at the time) .
Between 2007 - 2015 I did little or no regular running. I started running consistently 3 days a week from about mid 2016 and have kept it up till now so I am as fit as I have ever been. So I took the plunge and signed up for Dublin, exactly 10 years after my one and only marathon I'm hoping to break 3:20 (that might be a tad optimistic).

My pb's are - 5k 18:45 / 10k 40:20 (both of them are from this calendar year) haven't ran any other race distances yet.
My weekly training looks like this
Monday Rest
Tuesday 10km easy
Wednesday bike to work 30k round trip
Thursday bike to work 30k and interval session 12*400 and 3k warm up
Friday bike to work 30k
Saturday Rest
Sunday Half marathon slow
I've ran a half marathon at relaxed pace the last 4 Sundays in a row I did these in 1hr 44mins.

My plan is to keep going as I am and gradually increase the long run , do the race series and the 3/4 marathon in Athlone as my longest run. My only concern is I am not running enough? Is sub 3:30 a more realistic target? I could add another day running just not sure where to fit it in . Thanks

Your 5k and 10k times suggest 3.20 and faster would be on the cards,just need to get a plan to suite you, I think you need more running days when you start
into full Marathon training. I think if you had a look at the MENO plan which I think is posted earlier in thread it would give you a better idea of a full on Marathon plan. Best of luck.

clickerquicklic

Kennyg71 wrote: »

Your 5k and 10k times suggest 3.20 and faster would be on the cards,just need to get a plan to suite you, I think you need more running days when you start
into full Marathon training. I think if you had a look at the MENO plan which I think is posted earlier in thread it would give you a better idea of a full on Marathon plan. Best of luck.

Thank you that plan looks very similar to what I'm doing so perfect, I'll follow that roughly and add days to make up mileage, there are 3:20 pacers so I'll use 3:20 as my planned marathon pace for runs .

The Black Oil

Kennyg71 wrote: »

I think if you build from where you are now and keep reassessing every 5 weeks or so, and after each race you do over cycle, you may find your time target comes to nearer where you want, but no point in picking a target time yet just work from where you are.

Couldn't run tonight due to working late. I'll try tomorrow, Thurs and Sat and/or Sun.

If I'm reading correctly, I wouldn't need to start the intermediate marathon graduates plan until the week of July 24th, to reach DCM 2017. In the meantime, I was thinking of starting the 10k-HM to keep myself ticking over. I'm not sure how progression runs would fit in on that front. Use the last bit of 1 hour 45 on Sundays to run at MP? Is that sufficient? Or lengthen each Sunday gradually, whilst still running the last 2-3 miles at MP. Maybe reassess paces at the end of June, after testing myself out at a park run as you alluded to in post 46.

I'm a little thrown by the nitty gritty of the Meno to tackle that, tbh. Well, some of the Wednesdays, certainly. If I may whine further for the moment, it always feels like I'll just be an average runner - primarily by ability, not a lack of willingness to try. If I ran 4:15 I'd be disappointed, to say the least (not overthinking times before this thread, honest). Life can get in the way of extensive training too and perhaps I should leave my expectations at 4:XX+.

Appreciate the feedback, Kenny.

hot buttered scones

I ran 3:22 last year off a 19:58 5k and a 42:01 10k so I'd agree with Kennyg71 - 3:20 or even faster. Plenty of MP sessions should give you an idea of what's achievable.

Spirogyra

I'm hoping to do the DCM in October. My p.b. (from 2 previous attempts) is 3'59 , am fitter now again, so hoping that 3'50 at least might be achievable now. Do others here still do Interval Training or Tempo Runs as part of their 'plan'?:)

kin9pin

Spirogyra wrote: »

I'm hoping to do the DCM in October. My p.b. (from 2 previous attempts) is 3'59 , am fitter now again, so hoping that 3'50 at least might be achievable now. Do others here still do Interval Training or Tempo Runs as part of their 'plan'?:)

Check out the "meno" plan from the first post, there's some really interesting sessions on Wednesdays. I'll be following it for DCM (also my 3rd marathon) and I think quite a few others on here are also looking at it.

Wottle

hot buttered scones wrote: »

Pull the trigger now and register. Pick a plan and get stuck in. Commit to it, plan for it, train for it. Run the half and you should see signs of improvement from marathon training alone. You might surprise yourself. What's the worse that could happen? Do any of your recent race times point to 3:30 marathon?

What have I Done :-) as you said above, what's the worst that can happen?

Only times so far is a half back in April off no training or very little 2:05 and most recently a 37:28 from Terenure off 35 days training, that gives a 3:40 but I've never had a 5 mile time translate into a realistic marathon time, need a 10 miler or half at least.

Regarding plans, I've never stuck to one and can't see myself following one, I've a decent grasp of what has to be done and will more than likely do out some guidelines based around consistency.

hot buttered scones

Yevon wrote:

Can I just pick up a plan in August after the R&R Half and complete the final 8 weeks or so of it? Or should I be rolling back my distance and starting from scratch? I'm keen to break 4 hours, from reading up on it people seem to say running the first half in 1.50 and the second in 2.10 is the way people usually get there. Do the pacers just run at a steady 2 hour HM pace throughout?

Just a quick answer for now - there's plenty of 12 week plans out there which should be ok for you.
What your talking about in terms of marathon times is a positive split. You should generally try for even splits (2+2) or preferably slightly negative (2:02+1.58 e.g.). Positive splits generally result from going out too fast and fading. I'd view a 20 minute positive split as a bit of disaster (for me personally).

clickerquicklic

I've the opposite problem I normally start too slow and run the second half much more aggressively , psychologically for me anyway I leave races feeling better after finishing stronger , even if I didn't better my time. My latest 10k which was a pb for me I ran 21:30 for first 5k and 18:50 for second half . For me second halves of races I am motivated by passing people and seem to go faster.
As a disclaimer I'm not a great runner so take advice with pinch of salt !
For the marathon my plan will be 3:20 so I'll go with pacers but no matter how good I feel ( I am expecting 3:20 pace to feel slow as it does in easy runs ) I'll be sticking with them till 32k and if I'm still feeling good I'll be giving it all I can for last 10k . Going out and doing 1:50/2:10 means your slowing down and trying to hang on it doesn't sound like a good plan imo

boydkev

clickerquicklic wrote: »

I've the opposite problem I normally start too slow and run the second half much more aggressively , psychologically for me anyway I leave races feeling better after finishing stronger , even if I didn't better my time. My latest 10k which was a pb for me I ran 21:30 for first 5k and 18:50 for second half . For me second halves of races I am motivated by passing people and seem to go faster.
As a disclaimer I'm not a great runner so take advice with pinch of salt !
For the marathon my plan will be 3:20 so I'll go with pacers but no matter how good I feel ( I am expecting 3:20 pace to feel slow as it does in easy runs ) I'll be sticking with them till 32k and if I'm still feeling good I'll be giving it all I can for last 10k . Going out and doing 1:50/2:10 means your slowing down and trying to hang on it doesn't sound like a good plan imo

I think i need to look at my longer races over 10k in this mindset. I have been going out too fast and getting time in the bank but what happens is i have a slow mile and think i am fine as i have made up time, but that gets worse near the end of the race.

Kennyg71

The Black Oil wrote: »

Couldn't run tonight due to working late. I'll try tomorrow, Thurs and Sat and/or Sun.

If I'm reading correctly, I wouldn't need to start the intermediate marathon graduates plan until the week of July 24th, to reach DCM 2017. In the meantime, I was thinking of starting the 10k-HM to keep myself ticking over. I'm not sure how progression runs would fit in on that front. Use the last bit of 1 hour 45 on Sundays to run at MP? Is that sufficient? Or lengthen each Sunday gradually, whilst still running the last 2-3 miles at MP. Maybe reassess paces at the end of June, after testing myself out at a park run as you alluded to in post 46.

I'm a little thrown by the nitty gritty of the Meno to tackle that, tbh. Well, some of the Wednesdays, certainly. If I may whine further for the moment, it always feels like I'll just be an average runner - primarily by ability, not a lack of willingness to try. If I ran 4:15 I'd be disappointed, to say the least (not overthinking times before this thread, honest). Life can get in the way of extensive training too and perhaps I should leave my expectations at 4:XX+.

Appreciate the feedback, Kenny.

Just count back 14 weeks from race to get start time, you could keep ticking over on 10k plan and build your LR towards 2 hrs running for start of plan, progression run would be starting at your slow run pace then every 30 mins or so increasing pace slightly till you reach slightly higher than your current mp for last 20 mins or so, it will teach your body to adjust to increase in speed and get it out of the 1 gear Hal hig plan. You only need to do this every other week, maybe the week of you slow LR, do a park run the previous day and give it a bit of effort but not flat out. You should start to see improvements over a few weeks and maybe in about 5 weeks give Park run a full blast out then gauge your training paces for Marathon plan, graduates plan just runs by time instead of miles but will get you to same place.

Clearlier

clickerquicklic wrote: »

I've the opposite problem I normally start too slow and run the second half much more aggressively , psychologically for me anyway I leave races feeling better after finishing stronger , even if I didn't better my time. My latest 10k which was a pb for me I ran 21:30 for first 5k and 18:50 for second half . For me second halves of races I am motivated by passing people and seem to go faster.
As a disclaimer I'm not a great runner so take advice with pinch of salt !
For the marathon my plan will be 3:20 so I'll go with pacers but no matter how good I feel ( I am expecting 3:20 pace to feel slow as it does in easy runs ) I'll be sticking with them till 32k and if I'm still feeling good I'll be giving it all I can for last 10k . Going out and doing 1:50/2:10 means your slowing down and trying to hang on it doesn't sound like a good plan imo

I think that aiming to run a negative split (2nd half faster) can be the perfect strategy for many people but all other things being equal (no dramatic change in course profile etc.) I'd work on reducing the size of the difference. Most people with a PB of 41 flat for a 10k wouldn't be able to run an 18:50 5k never mind as the second half of a 10k.

Incidentally 18:50 for a 5k has you pretty close to 3 hour marathon territory assuming that you're appropriately trained for a marathon and 41:20 would be somewhere around 3:10.

Clearlier

hot buttered scones wrote: »

I came across theses Steve Way BAC sessions while back:

Steve Way blogpost

I searched on this forum for something similiar and found the in AMK's training log:

AMK log

which links to here:

http://www.bournemouthac.co.uk/training/BAC_Marathon_Sessions_2016.pdf

These look like great sessions. I made half an attempt to incorporate them into the meno plan for Dublin, but gave up half way through. What do ye think? Would one of these sessions plus a long run or long run with "stuff" be enough or should there be one more LT or Tempo effort during the week as well?
I know I said I was doing P+D, but I think If I could put the BAC sessions into some sort of coherent plan I'd do that instead.

Hi HBS - I was running in the same club as Steve when we started doing those sessions. They were designed with the help/inspiration of Liz Yelling (British Olympic marathon runner) and I wouldn't really prescribe them for intermediate runners.

They're sexy and tick a lot of the boxes that we think we need to tick for successful marathon running. The people who did best with them had a background of several years running though, usually of medium to high mileage and coming into the training cycle they were coming from a base of doing relatively hard intervals at least once a week i.e. they were well accustomed to running at high intensity twice a week.

For the average intermediate marathon runner who has been running a couple of years and has run one or two marathons off 30 - 40 mpw, maybe touching 50mpw occasionally I'd advise something a little simpler. There's so much scope still for improvement at that stage that you don't need to get into complicated multi-pace sessions. You get more bang for you buck elsewhere. I'd certainly do P&D before doing the BAC sessions.

Spirogyra

Have others ran 'good' marathons, running just 3 days per week ? , I'm running really well, on just 3 days per week, plus usually a fitness class in a gym, but do I need to up to 4 for marathon ?.

The tedium of lsr today, slowly on my own, was driving me a bit...then my back-pack was robbed I later discovered.....

Testosterscone

Clearlier wrote: »

Hi HBS - I was running in the same club as Steve when we started doing those sessions. They were designed with the help/inspiration of Liz Yelling (British Olympic marathon runner) and I wouldn't really prescribe them for intermediate runners.

They're sexy and tick a lot of the boxes that we think we need to tick for successful marathon running. The people who did best with them had a background of several years running though, usually of medium to high mileage and coming into the training cycle they were coming from a base of doing relatively hard intervals at least once a week i.e. they were well accustomed to running at high intensity twice a week.

For the average intermediate marathon runner who has been running a couple of years and has run one or two marathons off 30 - 40 mpw, maybe touching 50mpw occasionally I'd advise something a little simpler. There's so much scope still for improvement at that stage that you don't need to get into complicated multi-pace sessions. You get more bang for you buck elsewhere. I'd certainly do P&D before doing the BAC sessions.

+1 on this

Training does not have to be overly complicated

Just look at Alyson Dixon's training in the build up to her London marathon where she was top British finisher.

Plenty of miles, consistent training and long runs on tired legs.

hot buttered scones

Clearlier wrote:

For the average intermediate marathon runner who has been running a couple of years and has run one or two marathons off 30 - 40 mpw, maybe touching 50mpw occasionally I'd advise something a little simpler. There's so much scope still for improvement at that stage that you don't need to get into complicated multi-pace sessions. You get more bang for you buck elsewhere. I'd certainly do P&D before doing the BAC sessions.

Thanks for the insight and advice. I'll come back to this another day when I'm feeling a bit stronger!!

No improvement for me today anyway. Ran with the 3:15 pacers but lost them around mile 12 and did a death march home to finish in 3.29:45. Conditions got the better of me and my breathing was all over the place. I'll go into more detail in my log but it was a bit of a Murphy's law day. Still, that's marathon no. 4 done. Dublin next. Same goal as today. I need to have a think about the plan. I also need to stop messing around with S+C work.

The Black Oil

Kennyg71 wrote: »

Just count back 14 weeks from race to get start time, you could keep ticking over on 10k plan and build your LR towards 2 hrs running for start of plan, progression run would be starting at your slow run pace then every 30 mins or so increasing pace slightly till you reach slightly higher than your current mp for last 20 mins or so, it will teach your body to adjust to increase in speed and get it out of the 1 gear Hal hig plan. You only need to do this every other week, maybe the week of you slow LR, do a park run the previous day and give it a bit of effort but not flat out. You should start to see improvements over a few weeks and maybe in about 5 weeks give Park run a full blast out then gauge your training paces for Marathon plan, graduates plan just runs by time instead of miles but will get you to same place.

Looks like my start date for the graduates intermediate plan would be the week of July 24th. Mocked up a spreadsheet a few days ago. Do you mean bring my Sundays from 1 hour 45 to 2 hours, every second week? Or do a few weeks of the 10k-HM plan and tweak after that? Warm up, LR easy, every 30 mins increase, as per your suggestion? Happy to consider changes - are watches good for logging the runs with paces chopping and change? Just asking from the point of view of usefulness and feedback if I do follow what you say. Thinking the data will become messy to interpret.

Need to knock my snacking habits on the head. Not good.

Kennyg71

The Black Oil wrote: »

Looks like my start date for the graduates intermediate plan would be the week of July 24th. Mocked up a spreadsheet a few days ago. Do you mean bring my Sundays from 1 hour 45 to 2 hours, every second week? Or do a few weeks of the 10k-HM plan and tweak after that? Warm up, LR easy, every 30 mins increase, as per your suggestion? Happy to consider changes - are watches good for logging the runs with paces chopping and change? Just asking from the point of view of usefulness and feedback if I do follow what you say. Thinking the data will become messy to interpret.

Need to knock my snacking habits on the head. Not good.

Start to increase LR time by 2-3 mins a week up to 24th,no harm every 3 weeks to
hold for a week before increasing again. Stick to HM structure if you do 1 session midweek as per plan and add in progression LR and Parkrun to plan and keep mileage ticking over till you start Marathon plan, your Marathon plan starts with 2 hour LR, so would be a big jump from 1.45 toe 2 hours if you don't start to build slowly from now. The watch is a good tool as you will see pace increasing as run progress, you can hit lap button at end of each section to get clearer picture, when you settle after few mins running at increased pace check out how you are feeling and how pace feels, at end 6 weeks or so MP pace should be becoming
comfortably hard and should give you a good indication of pace you may be able to sustain for MP miles.