Marathon Improvers Thread.

Wottle

Hadd is fantastic, I used it for my half marathon PB back in 2012 and that was despite no quality running in last 3/4 weeks due to calf trouble.
It's very disciplined stuff and think I'm lacking that now but I've definitely kept elements with regards to heart rate work. Be prepared to loose your 5k speed if following Hadd but the goal is the marathon.

Murph_D

Wottle wrote: »

Hadd is fantastic, I used it for my half marathon PB back in 2012 and that was despite no quality running in last 3/4 weeks due to calf trouble.
It's very disciplined stuff and think I'm lacking that now but I've definitely kept elements with regards to heart rate work. Be prepared to loose your 5k speed if following Hadd but the goal is the marathon.

What is that HM PB, as a matter of interest? And how much did you knock off?

Wottle

Murph_D wrote: »

What is that HM PB, as a matter of interest? And how much did you knock off?

1:38:07 from Berlin 2012, about 5 minutes knocked off.

Johnny_Fontane

Entering into my second marathon cycle, and going to do the same one I did as last time. Ran 3.36 in Feb, looking to stay with the 3.30 pacers in Dublin. It worked last time, why change!

just going to sprinkle in more speed work.

Testosterscone

Murph_D wrote: »

How are other marathon improvers doing with the perennial problem of pace drop-off? I used to think this was not a big issue for me as my marathon times lined up quite well with shorter race times, but over time my shorter times have improved, to the extent that my marathon PB (3:28) is now way off what is 'predicted' by my 5k time (20:21). I know calculators are supposed to be taken with the proverbial grain of salt, but perhaps less so over time, as one gets more experienced.

How do your times line up, and what has been the most important training element for developing speed endurance? Long tempo runs? Long runs 'with stuff'? Diet? Cross training? Something else? All of the above?

FWIW going into my second marathon this year with almost 12 months between them I spent majority of time in between working on weaknesses without letting the mileage drop.

I know calculators can be taken with a pinch of salt by some but I think if you are aerobically sound then they can actually be pretty good indicators.

I would say if you are focusing on shorter distances (5k-HM) in the off season then have these determine your goal but be realistic

Look at the calculator predictions you might have over 5k,5m,10k,HM. This will give you a possible range depending on your level (if there is a major drop off somewhere this shows where you may need to spend a bit of time attending to)

If you are able to hit 3 out of four times in around the same predicted marathon time you now have a base line target to work towards. If your predictions are dramatically slower as you go up in distance perhaps you need another block before your next marathon cycle.

FWIW my calculator times from races this year between 1500m and 10 mile are all within 4 minutes of each other (10k and 10 mile being small outliers showing still a bit to be done aerobically but expect this to come with marathon work giving the small time range)

In terms of the key ingredients; diet will lead to consistency so its essential, doesn't have to be perfect but it will go a long way to keeping the energy levels up and have you not under recovered risking injury and illness

aside from that consistency, good solid mileage block and good training stimulus once or twice a week can go a long way. I wouldn't get too bogged down on the details more just focusing on good variety and getting out of your comfort zone.

Murph_D

Wottle wrote: »

1:38:07 from Berlin 2012, about 5 minutes knocked off.

Good stuff. I had a similar result 1:37:xx with Pfitzinger's Faster Road Running method.

kin9pin

Murph_D wrote: »

How are other marathon improvers doing with the perennial problem of pace drop-off? I used to think this was not a big issue for me as my marathon times lined up quite well with shorter race times, but over time my shorter times have improved, to the extent that my marathon PB (3:28) is now way off what is 'predicted' by my 5k time (20:21). I know calculators are supposed to be taken with the proverbial grain of salt, but perhaps less so over time, as one gets more experienced.

How do your times line up, and what has been the most important training element for developing speed endurance? Long tempo runs? Long runs 'with stuff'? Diet? Cross training? Something else? All of the above?

I've logged my times below and the predicted marathon times from JD and McMillan. Not too sure what it shows except that that I need to work on my endurance. My HM time seems to match up quite well to the 5m-10m times.

Distance|PB|PB Date|Marathon: Jack Daniels|Marathon: McMillan|HM: McMillan
5K |21:46|3 Dec 16|3:28:00|3:32:06|1:40:47|
5M |37:53|29 Jan 17|3:39:22|3:42:37|1:45:47|
10K |48:38|22 May 16|3:43:44|3:48:10|1:48:25|
10M |1:21:38|20 Aug 16|3:46:00|3:49:09|1:48:53|
HM |1:46:53|19 Mar 17|3:41:32|3:44:56||

denis b

Murph_D wrote: »

How are other marathon improvers doing with the perennial problem of pace drop-off? I used to think this was not a big issue for me as my marathon times lined up quite well with shorter race times, but over time my shorter times have improved, to the extent that my marathon PB (3:28) is now way off what is 'predicted' by my 5k time (20:21). I know calculators are supposed to be taken with the proverbial grain of salt, but perhaps less so over time, as one gets more experienced.

How do your times line up, and what has been the most important training element for developing speed endurance? Long tempo runs? Long runs 'with stuff'? Diet? Cross training? Something else? All of the above?

Pace Drop Off
Well I would certainly fall into the category, at this stage, of someone who runs a better shorter distance. My;

5km (20:32) March 2017
10km (43:41) April 2017

would suggest 3:17 and 3:21 respectively for the marathon. However, I am currently 89 kgs (90 kgs: avg. weight over the last 2 years) and will be dropping another 4kgs before end of July. I think that my weight is certainly an issue for pace drop off over longer distances.

1/2 Marathon 1:45:11 Sept 2015
Marathon 3:54:11 Oct 2015.

However I now have a good few more miles under my belt so I am not going to predict this years 10 miles, 1/2 and Marathon over my past times. My current 10km time will be a good guide for the 10mls in August and so on.

Race Target Times
I tend to be conservative with targets but then I usually exceed them. That works for me. I feel that I am only in a build phase and that there will be other races. I will push hard but not that hard that I might jeopardise my targets. This would be particularly true of longer distances where I have less experience. Still only finding my feet.

Heat
I heat up very quickly so have to allow for that. Have radically changed clothing and water intake and will be experimenting with salt chews etc this summer

Nutrition
Giving this attention for the first time in a long time. Not a huge eater but better quality food is needed.

Battery Kinzie

Who are these people who are averaging faster than the calculator predicts that are making the calculator predict what it predicts?

denis b

Battery Kinzie wrote: »

Who are these people who are averaging faster than the calculator predicts that are making the calculator predict what it predicts?

:D:D but still a very valid question. It would appear, well at least anecdotally, to be the most abnormal of normal distribution curves. Maybe Boards is the outlier :eek:

The Black Oil

On week 2 of the base plan at the moment. Looking ahead to the intermediate plan, the weekend segment is currently as follows.

Saturday Sunday
60 min very easy 2 hour easy
60 min very easy 70 min progression (30/20/20- very easy/easy/moderate)
60 min moderate 2 hr 15 easy
60 min very easy 90 min progression (30 easy/moderate/tempo)
60 min moderate 2 hr 30 easy
60 min very easy 75 min moderate
60 min moderate 2hr 15 easy
60 min very easy 90 min progression (30 easy/moderate/tempo)
60 min moderate 2 hr 30 easy
60 min very easy 75 min tempo
60 min moderate 3 hour easy
50 min very easy 2 hours easy
40 min very easy 75 min easy
15 min recovery Race

If I were to join the club for LSRs on Sundays, should I keep Saturday as they are (as above), and replace the Sunday content with the club's routines? Or, how about swapping the Saturday and Sundays around - might be a shame to lose out on some of the progressions on Sun.

Instead it could be something like this.

Saturday |Sunday
2 hour easy |LSR - club
70 min progression (30/20/20- very easy/easy/moderate) |LSR - club
2 hr 15 easy |LSR - club
90 min progression (30 easy/moderate/tempo) |LSR - club
2 hr 30 easy |LSR - club
75 min moderate |LSR - club
2hr 15 easy |LSR - club
90 min progression (30 easy/moderate/tempo) |LSR - club
2 hr 30 easy |LSR - club
75 min tempo |LSR - club
3 hour easy |LSR - club
2 hours easy |LSR - club
75 min easy |LSR - club
15 recovery|Race

Am away for a few days in Sept, don't know my schedule yet. Will be travelling how much time I'll have free. A few early am starts my be in order. :cool:

adrian522

I'd leave Saturday as it is and incorporate the Sunday run into your club run, for example if the club do 90 mins on Sunday you might have to do 30 mins at the start or end in week 1 or mix up the pace on the progression days. Maybe rope someone else into the same plan and run with them.

Spirogyra

I'm already at 17 miles, registered for the Dublin Marathon, what can I do in the meantime ? 17 miles with 4 months to go.... I could probably do it next week if I needed to....

Singer

Spirogyra wrote: »

I'm already at 17 miles, registered for the Dublin Marathon, what can I do in the meantime ? 17 miles with 4 months to go.... I could probably do it next week if I needed to....

You can make the longer runs more interesting - speed up towards the end, insert marathon paced miles, run on hillier terrain...

Spirogyra

I do think I need a few goals before Dublin, ok I can increase midweek mileage but think I need a few races for motivation. Doing a 5 mile Friday night. Did Streets of Galway last year, but didn't have a great experience staying overnight.....

boydkev

Plan was to start with the P&D 55 18 Week plan this monday but will have to delay for a week due to final treatments for Peroneal tendinopathy and being given the all clear to continue. I have still been running during the treatment but shorter runs 4-9 miles. So a new direction with regard to strength and conditioning and now back on track.

So looking at the pacing for the the plan mentioned. Not looking forward to the V02 Sessions.
MARATHON PACE 7.59
VO2 Max 6.25
L.T. Pace 7.2
LSR 20% (1-2 mi) 9.36
LSR 10% 8.48

Itziger

boydkev wrote: »

Plan was to start with the P&D 55 18 Week plan this monday but will have to delay for a week due to final treatments for Peroneal tendinopathy and being given the all clear to continue. I have still been running during the treatment but shorter runs 4-9 miles. So a new direction with regard to strength and conditioning and now back on track.

So looking at the pacing for the the plan mentioned. Not looking forward to the V02 Sessions.
MARATHON PACE 7.59
VO2 Max 6.25
L.T. Pace 7.2
LSR 20% (1-2 mi) 9.36
LSR 10% 8.48

'Kev, the way I try to approach hard sessions like that is a)tell yourself it's not another boring med/long run and b)tell yourself that this is where the real gains are made. This is what will hopefully get you your time on the day, not the easy 10 miler of yesterday or tomorrow. So embrace the tough stuff!

The Black Oil

adrian522 wrote: »

I'd leave Saturday as it is and incorporate the Sunday run into your club run, for example if the club do 90 mins on Sunday you might have to do 30 mins at the start or end in week 1 or mix up the pace on the progression days. Maybe rope someone else into the same plan and run with them.

The club folks are currently at 11-13 miles on their LSRs - rehearsing for the Half, afail. If I were to join in a few weeks they'd be a further along in distance by that stage (I presume) - not something I'd worry about. Some options 1) keep Saturday as is, Sunday with the club. 2) Saturday as is, Sunday with club, but only every second week or so, for easy runs. I could do the moderate/progressions by myself. Or perhaps another option. 3) Take the Sunday from the intermediate plan, do it on Friday instead, Sat as is, Sun - club LSR. Probably overthinking this. :cool:

Spirogyra

How does one decide whether to make one's longest run 20 or 22 miles ?. Does one normally, or at what point should an lsr be at marathon pace ?.

adrian522

I've always gone to 22 miles but there is a school of thought that says the benefits no longer outweigh the risks once you go past 3 hours in your long run. So its a personal choice and I guess you'll know how the body is holding up and how long you are taking to recover from 17,18, 20 mile runs.

I don't think a LSR should ever be completely at MP, maybe some MP miles dropped in the middle or at the end but during my long run I don't think I ever did more than 10 miles at MP. I did up to 14 Miles at MP during a mid week run though that was a seperate session to the weekend long run

tailgunner

For my first marathon last year, I didn't do any MP miles during the long run. The most I did was a couple of 10 mile runs mid-week with 8 miles at MP. I found these very tough.

As for the longest run question, I did three 20 mile runs in around 3 hours 15 minutes. Felt no need to go any farther, and I doubt I'd have been able for it either, physically or mentally.

I also found that my recovery time from a long run didn't change much, up to around 18 miles. After that, I found I needed an extra day before I was back to "normal" (a relative term during marathon training).

I got on grand with the marathon itself.

EDIT: Thought I was in the novices thread here, sorry.

hot buttered scones

adrian522 wrote:

I've always gone to 22 miles but there is a school of thought that says the benefits no longer outweigh the risks once you go past 3 hours in your long run. So its a personal choice and I guess you'll know how the body is holding up and how long you are taking to recover from 17,18, 20 mile runs.

I've done both and personally I think the 22 miles did me more harm than good. I know it's only 2 extra miles but they seemed to take way more out of me. It really is a case of what suits the individual best. I know there's a bit more too it than that too though - on the phone so short posts only!

Singer

I did one 22 miler back in my novice days, after having already done two 20 milers. It was a bit ad-hoc, I felt good at around 17 or so so extended the run. I did take it pretty easy over the days afterwards, which suited as it was the week of the half-marathon. So I'd recommend it if you're recovering well from the 20 milers, though I'd be wary of running for too long - I did the 22 miles in 3:15, which is pushing the recommended length of time it's worthwhile to be on your feet.

Last year I did two 22 milers, though the less said about that cycle the better

Kennyg71

I did two 22 milers last year and was a bit to rigid on getting following week sessions done as per plan, instead of taking extra recovery and rescheduling session, ignored warning signs and got injured. I think a lot to be said for not running over three hours when fatigue can cause issues which cannot be recovered from before the race.

denis b

Spirogyra wrote: »

How does one decide whether to make one's longest run 20 or 22 miles ?. Does one normally, or at what point should an lsr be at marathon pace ?.

The P&D 18 Week Plan targets MP miles on longer runs as follows:

Week 16 (2nd week of Plan) 13 miles with 8 miles at MP
Week 13 (5th week of Plan) 16 miles with 10 miles at MP
Week 9 (9th week of Plan) 16 miles with 12 miles at MP
Week 5 (13th week of Plan) 18 miles with 14 miles at MP

Hope this helps.

Spirogyra

Attended 'Bootcamp' at 6am this morning. I am genuinely one of, sometimes actually the worst performer. I've a weak core and am quite inflexible. But I still feel it helps. I'm probably a far superior runner than most in the room and use it to 'supplement' my running. However I'd still like to be 'better'....

boydkev

I have a question regarding races during the plan.
I am looking at doing 3 before the Marathon. How do you build these into your LSR that i am supposed to be doing on the sundays.

Local 7k - Plan has 13m w 8 @ MP

Charleville HM - Plan has 17m LSR

Cork/Cobh 15m - Plan has 17m LSR

So should i do warmup with 1-2 miles at LSR pace and then do the race and then do additional mileage after at LSR pace. My plan is to run cork to cobh at MP, But i am wondering what i should run the HM or 7k.

Kennyg71

boydkev wrote: »

I have a question regarding races during the plan.
I am looking at doing 3 before the Marathon. How do you build these into your LSR that i am supposed to be doing on the sundays.

Local 7k - Plan has 13m w 8 @ MP

Charleville HM - Plan has 17m LSR

Cork/Cobh 15m - Plan has 17m LSR

So should i do warmup with 1-2 miles at LSR pace and then do the race and then do additional mileage after at LSR pace. My plan is to run cork to cobh at MP, But i am wondering what i should run the HM or 7k.

If 7k is day before, just run 13m easy next day
I am racing Charleville at HM effort and will adjust week following depending on how I recover, may drop session midweek for easy run. My plan has Race built in though. Race effort more than compensates for 17 LR so wouldn't get to hung up on hitting 17 miles.

Cobh 15M with W/U and Marathon paced effort should be good session, might be little much at 15 miles MP, so if you get on pace in first 3 miles or
so and take relaxed approach to hitting pace may work better.

I know HBS has done P&D so he may have better insight.

hot buttered scones

boydkev wrote: »

I have a question regarding races during the plan.
I am looking at doing 3 before the Marathon. How do you build these into your LSR that i am supposed to be doing on the sundays.

Local 7k - Plan has 13m w 8 @ MP

Charleville HM - Plan has 17m LSR

Cork/Cobh 15m - Plan has 17m LSR

So should i do warmup with 1-2 miles at LSR pace and then do the race and then do additional mileage after at LSR pace. My plan is to run cork to cobh at MP, But i am wondering what i should run the HM or 7k.

I'm assuming your following P+D here. I'm just racing Charleville - with a couple of miles either side of warm up and cool down you'll reach the mileage target for the day anyway. As for Cork to Cobh - I think the week before has 18 w 14@MP. So you could do either Charleville or Cork to Cobh at MP in lieu of the 18 w 14@MP maybe?
For the 7k race - is there a 4 miles@LT midweek that week? Could you do the 13w8@MP midweek and do the 7k as the LT session?

boydkev

hot buttered scones wrote: »

I'm assuming your following P+D here. I'm just racing Charleville - with a couple of miles either side of warm up and cool down you'll reach the mileage target for the day anyway. As for Cork to Cobh - I think the week before has 18 w 14@MP. So you could do either Charleville or Cork to Cobh at MP in lieu of the 18 w 14@MP maybe?
For the 7k race - is there a 4 miles@LT midweek that week? Could you do the 13w8@MP midweek and do the 7k as the LT session?

I was thinking i could swap one the sunday of the cork to cobh with week before as you have mentioned.
The 7k is this sunday so still early enough in the plan, So i might race it and then get the other miles done after, As i dont think swapping saturday(recover 5 mile) and sunday(13m with 8 @ MP) would work as racing on tired legs.

Am i mad considering doing both Charleville and Cork-Cobh?