Marathon Improvers Thread.

JohnDozer

hot buttered scones wrote: »

I was going to do to 55-70 plan but I was put off by the midweek back to back MLRs (hard to fit in with work) and the fact that I felt maybe 70 was a bit too much. But at the moment I'm sort of feeling like maybe I'm not doing enough. However, I think I felt the same at this point last year and then a couple of weeks into Mesocycle 2 I knee I was doing enough. You could always do what I'm doing, but do the long runs and VO2 max sessions from the 55-70 plans - there's an extra interval in them I think. But yeah, stick with the plan your on for another couple of weeks and see how you get on.

That seems quite similar to my mindset at the moment. Feel like the bigger mileage is just pushing it that little bit too much, but looking at the other plan and I don't feel like it suits me as well as this one. I'm not caught with shift work like you and I had gotten into the routine of getting up early and getting the runs done so no issue there. I might look at the hybrid of the two that you mentioned.

I was even thinking last night after I wrote the original post and I think a useful general discussion might be an answer to the two questions:-

How tired or fatigued in general should people feel when knee deep in marathon training. What is the baseline?

And what is an acceptable level of muscle stiffness and soreness to be dealing with?

I guess when I read people's descriptions of same I'll be able to judge my own situation a little better.

JohnDozer

hot buttered scones wrote: »

Just wanted to add I'd say a lot of people (me especially!) could probably copy and paste these sentences into their own logs. Are you saying the paces are too fast or slow?? If they are too slow them maybe it's your goal that's the issue, and not the plan. If your running too fast - then stop. Especially for the recovery days. I don't think you can run too slowly on these days. Maybe if you sort this out, you might start feeling differently.
The LT sessions are tough though. I've considered maybe entering races and running them at LT pace, but getting through them on your own brings a bit of mental toughness. The 7 mile one is awful.
BTW you were asking about 10k warm up races in October. Did you check out the Croppy Boy 10k in Passage East in Waterford? Fits in with the first 10k tune up race and is on a Saturday. I'm thinking of that and maybe Donadea 2 weeks later.

I think the paces are a little quick, not excessively so, but I am conscious of the cumulative effect. Say the MLR's for example - should be in the 8:20 to 8:40 range but would have ended up averaging out at 8:10 to 8:15 on a few occasions. I do feel it's an issue I am getting a handle on. I'm doing the recovery runs by HR and generally well behaved and no issue here. The LT Sessions are challenging alright, but I find them doable. It's an ongoing niggle that flares up at that particular pace that causing me issues. I think the goal pace is fine. My PMP is 7:52ish and I've been targeting 7:08ish pace for the LT sessions but using the upper HR limit as the guide.

At the moment the race plan is:-
6 weeks out - Either Cork 10 and move weeks to suit or Charleville with first 5k as warmup and last 10 miles for unofficial 10 mile PB.
4 weeks out - Croppy Boy 10k or there is one in Colemanstown in Galway. I'm sure there will be other options closer the time. Croppy Boy seems to be the better option at present.
2 weeks out - Amsterdam 8k. My buddy is doing his first half over so I'm going to avail of the opportunity. (It's also an 'annual trip' that I don't want to lose the rights to with herself by not going!) The tricky part will be the 17 miler the following day. Laps of the Vondelpark might be where it's at.

Anyway, I digress. I'm paranoid. I don't want to overtrain. I don't feel like I am at present. But I also don't want it to sneak up on me and not realise it before it's too late. I am conscious that the plan is bigger than anything I've attempted before. That's all...

Murph_D

JohnDozer wrote: »

Anyway, I digress. I'm paranoid. I don't want to overtrain. I don't feel like I am at present. But I also don't want it to sneak up on me and not realise it before it's too late. I am conscious that the plan is bigger than anything I've attempted before. That's all...

What kind of base mileage did you have before starting the P&D70? In the recommended range? Sounds like you're overdoing it on a couple if levels, possibly (volume, intensity etc.)

Apologies if you posted this already.

Baxtardo

I'm trying to get a handle on the various paces for the P&D 55 plan also.

PMP: 5:00 m/km

LT Pace: 4:30 m/km

General Aerobic: 5:20 - 5:30 m/km

Long Run: 5:30 - 5:40 m/km

Recovery Run: Slow enough as to maintain a low HR, 5:40 m/km or so.

I've been able to maintain these paces no problem but a bit worried I'm not dropping the pace enough on some of the runs?

The P&D plan says long runs should be 10-20% slower than PMP. This doesn't seem to be slow enough to classify it as a LSR going from then novice plan, or is it?

JohnDozer

Murph_D wrote: »

What kind of base mileage did you have before starting the P&D70? In the recommended range? Sounds like you're overdoing it on a couple if levels, possibly (volume, intensity etc.)

Apologies if you posted this already.

I was happy enough with where the mileage was at. I've looked back at April- May- June on Strava and the weekly mileage would have gone like this 43, 47, 50, 41, 31, 48, 50, 51, 50, 3.2 (back injury), 53, 55, 55.

I was running at least one 10 miler most of these weeks with a good few longer ones as well. April was leading up to the Limerick Half. Did another half in May and June was mainly focussed on building mileage with a few interval sessions thrown in there and long runs of 13, 14 and 2 X 16's.

So I suppose it doesn't read like the mileage itself was too big of a jump to make? It may be the frequency of the 10 mile plus runs that's causing the doubts.

28064212

Baxtardo wrote: »

The P&D plan says long runs should be 10-20% slower than PMP. This doesn't seem to be slow enough to classify it as a LSR going from then novice plan, or is it?

Did you read the book? They're quite explicit that their long runs are not LSRs, and very clearly lay out how the long ones should be run

Baxtardo

28064212 wrote: »

Did you read the book? They're quite explicit that their long runs are not LSRs, and very clearly lay out how the long ones should be run

I have the book but haven't come across a comparison between long runs and LSRs. The plan is going well so far, would just like to understand how the structure of this plan means you don't need to do weekly runs at LSR pace. I'll have a dig through and see what I can find!

JohnDozer

Baxtardo wrote: »

I have the book but haven't come across a comparison between long runs and LSRs. The plan is going well so far, would just like to understand how the structure of this plan means you don't need to do weekly runs at LSR pace. I'll have a dig through and see what I can find!

The book won't make a direct comparison for you, it's more implicit that doing the long runs as described in the book is superior to the 'time on the feet' approach of novice or beginner plans that you mentioned. It presumes that you're stepping up a gear in your approach and able to handle doing the long runs a bit faster and getting maximum benefit from them. It does describe starting out the long run at the lower end of the pace range and working your way up to the upper pace limit by the end. So if you are staying within the range, I wouldn't be too worried...

I can't comment on your paces that you outlined above as they are in km's but if you've done the calculations as per the book there shouldn't be any issue.

denis b

JohnDozer wrote: »

The book won't make a direct comparison for you, it's more implicit that doing the long runs as described in the book is superior to the 'time on the feet' approach of novice or beginner plans that you mentioned. It presumes that you're stepping up a gear in your approach and able to handle doing the long runs a bit faster and getting maximum benefit from them. It does describe starting out the long run at the lower end of the pace range and working your way up to the upper pace limit by the end. So if you are staying within the range, I wouldn't be too worried...

I can't comment on your paces that you outlined above as they are in km's but if you've done the calculations as per the book there shouldn't be any issue.

That is certainly my approach on the Sunday Long Run for the P&D up to 55 mls. Our current PMP are the same so on that basis I would say that your LR Pace Range (mine- 6:13 to 5:43) and Recovery Pace (Usually around 6:00/km and managed in conjunction with hr) are too fast. I am also using the HR data for pace guidance so that may account for some difference between us. Let me know as the comparison would be useful.

Apologies Baxtardo and JohnDozer: I should have also quoted Baxtardo at post #256 for continuity of this point.

Murph_D

JohnDozer wrote: »

I was happy enough with where the mileage was at. I've looked back at April- May- June on Strava and the weekly mileage would have gone like this 43, 47, 50, 41, 31, 48, 50, 51, 50, 3.2 (back injury), 53, 55, 55.

I was running at least one 10 miler most of these weeks with a good few longer ones as well. April was leading up to the Limerick Half. Did another half in May and June was mainly focussed on building mileage with a few interval sessions thrown in there and long runs of 13, 14 and 2 X 16's.

So I suppose it doesn't read like the mileage itself was too big of a jump to make? It may be the frequency of the 10 mile plus runs that's causing the doubts.

Well they specify 45 miles per week as the pre-plan base, which you seem to have. They also mention that you should be ready to start off with a 15 mile LR and 4m tempo.

I think the 55m plan would be fine for your marathon goal anyway. But to answer your original question, I think it's normal to feel tired during marathon training, The muscle soreness/fatigue is another thing though - a few twinges here and there would be normal for me, but not to the point you describe. And if LT specific pace is giving you gyp, maybe the pace is wrong, or maybe it's too long for your current fitness state? Either way, dropping down is probably a good idea given the various issues.

hot buttered scones

Baxtardo wrote: »

I'm trying to get a handle on the various paces for the P&D 55 plan also.

PMP: 5:00 m/km

LT Pace: 4:30 m/km

General Aerobic: 5:20 - 5:30 m/km

Long Run: 5:30 - 5:40 m/km

Recovery Run: Slow enough as to maintain a low HR, 5:40 m/km or so.

I've been able to maintain these paces no problem but a bit worried I'm not dropping the pace enough on some of the runs?

The P&D plan says long runs should be 10-20% slower than PMP. This doesn't seem to be slow enough to classify it as a LSR going from then novice plan, or is it?

28064212 wrote: »

Did you read the book? They're quite explicit that their long runs are not LSRs, and very clearly lay out how the long ones should be run

JohnDozer wrote: »

The book won't make a direct comparison for you, it's more implicit that doing the long runs as described in the book is superior to the 'time on the feet' approach of novice or beginner plans that you mentioned. It presumes that you're stepping up a gear in your approach and able to handle doing the long runs a bit faster and getting maximum benefit from them. It does describe starting out the long run at the lower end of the pace range and working your way up to the upper pace limit by the end. So if you are staying within the range, I wouldn't be too worried...

I can't comment on your paces that you outlined above as they are in km's but if you've done the calculations as per the book there shouldn't be any issue.

denis b wrote: »

That is certainly my approach on the Sunday Long Run for the P&D up to 55 mls. Our current PMP are the same so on that basis I would say that your LR Pace Range (mine- 6:13 to 5:43) and Recovery Pace (Usually around 6:00/km and managed in conjunction with hr) are too fast. I am also using the HR data for pace guidance so that may account for some difference between us. Let me know as the comparison would be useful.

Apologies Baxtardo and JohnDozer: I should have also quoted Baxtardo at post #256 for continuity of this point.

I'm probably repeating what everyone else has said - the book says long runs are to start out at MP+20% and to gradually build the pace so that you finish out the last few miles @MP + 10%. He also says that long runs a race (3 tune up races in the plan) should be started off like a recovery run and if you loosen up then finish it out at MP+15% to 20%. The long run is really your second session of the week (or your 3rd if you count the medium long run).

Murph_D

I think the above is a crucial point. Some P&D LRs are progressive, some are not. Many novices overcook or undercook the long run. Improvers tend to overcook (too fast).

Hanson is similar - some LRs easier than others, depending on context. It's important to read the reasoning behind the paces. Then re-read when, like me, you've already forgotten.

Getting LRs right is a big part of getting to the next stage!

peterc14

Singer wrote: »

Is https://www.chooseachallenge.com/wp-content/uploads/ASICS_TRAININGPLANS_Sub-3.30.pdf what you're doing?

:eek:

To anyone using the above plan...how did the 12 x 400m go yesterday? I got them done not too bad though can feel the legs a little tender today.

Wubble Wubble

peterc14 wrote: »

To anyone using the above plan...how did the 12 x 400m go yesterday? I got them done not too bad though can feel the legs a little tender today.

Didn't do the 400s I'm afraid. I'm running the R'n'R Half on Sunday, so it'll be just tonight's club session this week.

16 x 200 the next two Tuesdays though :eek:

Van.Bosch

I see that plan has 3*20 and one 22, which is a lot compared to other plans, P&D for example has 3*20.

What are people's thoughts on going past 20 to 21/22?

Wubble Wubble

Van.Bosch wrote: »

I see that plan has 3*20 and one 22, which is a lot compared to other plans, P&D for example has 3*20.

What are people's thoughts on going past 20 to 21/22?

It is a lot compared to P & D, however it is quite low in terms of overall mileage IMO. I was very surprised to find a sub 3:30 plan with a high of under 50 mpw.

JohnDozer

Van.Bosch wrote: »

I see that plan has 3*20 and one 22, which is a lot compared to other plans, P&D for example has 3*20.

What are people's thoughts on going past 20 to 21/22?

I know there is plenty of evidence to suggest that there is no need to go beyond 20 miles in training. There is even plenty of evidence to suggest running 20 miles isn't even necessary. I think for me though, I would like the confidence of having done 22 in training before the race itself.

However, if the 22 miler goes badly, that could/ would have a very negative impact on the confidence levels. Everyone is different though. Plenty of people have gotten fine results just having one or two 20 milers done.

Murph_D

JohnDozer wrote: »

...

Plenty of people have gotten fine results just having one or two 20 milers done.

Or none - the Hanson marathon plan tops out at 16 miles.

I've done a few 22 mile LRs myself and wouldn't go beyond 20 in future. You're just flogging yourself.

hot buttered scones

JohnDozer wrote: »

I know there is plenty of evidence to suggest that there is no need to go beyond 20 miles in training. There is even plenty of evidence to suggest running 20 miles isn't even necessary. I think for me though, I would like the confidence of having done 22 in training before the race itself.

However, if the 22 miler goes badly, that could/ would have a very negative impact on the confidence levels. Everyone is different though. Plenty of people have gotten fine results just having one or two 20 milers done.

Murph_D wrote: »

Or none - the Hanson marathon plan tops out at 16 miles.

I've done a few 22 mile LRs myself and wouldn't go beyond 20 in future. You're just flogging yourself.

I'd have to agree with Murph_D there. The last two miles are just torture. 20 is more than enough for me anyway. I'd probably think the same as JohnDozer in terms of a confidence boost - but I would get that from the 20 milers. My long run sweet spot seems to be between 16 and 18 miles - timewise that would be around 2:25 to around 2:40. The 20 milers take me around 3 hours and that's where the confidence comes from for me - not the distance but time on the feet. A 22 miler would mean I was out for probably close to my goal time and leaves me a lot more fatigued than 20 miles, and just isn't worth it for me.
P+D up to 55 has "only" 3 20 milers, but it has 11 runs of 16 miles+, 3 of which have a lot of MP. For a confidence booster you can't do better than 18 with 14@MP - better than any 22 miler in my experience.

Baxtardo

Murph_D wrote: »

I think the above is a crucial point. Some P&D LRs are progressive, some are not. Many novices overcook or undercook the long run. Improvers tend to overcook (too fast).

Hanson is similar - some LRs easier than others, depending on context. It's important to read the reasoning behind the paces. Then re-read when, like me, you've already forgotten.

Getting LRs right is a big part of getting to the next stage!

I am now on of those people - ran a long run at MP over the weekend (felt good, ignored the plan etc.) and after doing a LT session on Monday am now dealing with a high hamstring strain. It has improved a decent bit since yesterday, however lesson most definitely learnt. Follow the plan!

JohnDozer

hot buttered scones wrote: »

I'd have to agree with Murph_D there. The last two miles are just torture. 20 is more than enough for me anyway. I'd probably think the same as JohnDozer in terms of a confidence boost - but I would get that from the 20 milers. My long run sweet spot seems to be between 16 and 18 miles - timewise that would be around 2:25 to around 2:40. The 20 milers take me around 3 hours and that's where the confidence comes from for me - not the distance but time on the feet. A 22 miler would mean I was out for probably close to my goal time and leaves me a lot more fatigued than 20 miles, and just isn't worth it for me.
P+D up to 55 has "only" 3 20 milers, but it has 11 runs of 16 miles+, 3 of which have a lot of MP. For a confidence booster you can't do better than 18 with 14@MP - better than any 22 miler in my experience.

I get where both yourself and Murph_D are coming from. I really do. I suppose I'm just speaking in my own context that the marathon in particular is a race where you won't have ran either the distance or the time too many times before the day itself. That presents unique challenges in terms of mental preparation. For me and my brain, I think I need to be able to say to myself in the buildup ' well, I've ran 22 miles and that went well, another 4 and a bit should be achievable'. I know that's a fairly simplistic way of looking at it, but that's the way my mind appears to work. After a 20 miler, you're still thinking in terms of still having a 10k to run, whereas with a 22 miler, you've 'only' 4 miles to run.

You point is well made about the other runs, especially the MP bits, but again I feel that the MP runs work in conjunction with the time on feet runs, because I think ticking both those boxes is what works for me. Essentially, thats what it boils down to in the run up to the race - do I trust in my training enough to know I can run for 26.2 miles in 3 and a half hours at 8 minute mile pace? For me, that trust can only come if I've ran for close enough to 3.5 hours on at least one occasion, and I've also ran a good chunk of 8 minute miles on a few separate occasions. These are the main two elements of the block of training that will give me my confidence on the day. I think anyway!

I'm fairly low on confidence when it comes to the marathon. Been chewed up and spat out a few times. I should say that there were various issues with my training on each of those occasions.

The plan I'm on (P&D up to 70) has both a 21 miler and a 22 miler on them. At this moment in time I'm going to do them both. One of them is this Sunday anyway! If either of them don't go well I'll regret not listening to ye. I do realise they take a lot out of the system that takes a while to replenish. I think my challenges with the marathon are as much mental as physical, so I'm willing to take a risk on them, the potential benefits outweighing the potential negatives in terms of me and my mind and what I need to get out of them.

Wubble Wubble

Asics sub 3:30 has 16 x 200m (200m rec) in 45-50 seconds each on the next two Tuesdays - even after a race on the Sunday (weeks 6 & 7 are the same from Monday to Friday)

Has anyone here ever tried this (or similar) before while chasing sub 3:30, and if so, what was the outcome? That kind of thing sounds like something the top runners might do for the craic. At a much faster pace of course :pac: I'm thinking I'd love to try it, but probably not without adult supervision :eek:

Kennyg71

JohnDozer wrote: »

I get where both yourself and Murph_D are coming from. I really do. I suppose I'm just speaking in my own context that the marathon in particular is a race where you won't have ran either the distance or the time too many times before the day itself. That presents unique challenges in terms of mental preparation. For me and my brain, I think I need to be able to say to myself in the buildup ' well, I've ran 22 miles and that went well, another 4 and a bit should be achievable'. I know that's a fairly simplistic way of looking at it, but that's the way my mind appears to work. After a 20 miler, you're still thinking in terms of still having a 10k to run, whereas with a 22 miler, you've 'only' 4 miles to run.

You point is well made about the other runs, especially the MP bits, but again I feel that the MP runs work in conjunction with the time on feet runs, because I think ticking both those boxes is what works for me. Essentially, thats what it boils down to in the run up to the race - do I trust in my training enough to know I can run for 26.2 miles in 3 and a half hours at 8 minute mile pace? For me, that trust can only come if I've ran for close enough to 3.5 hours on at least one occasion, and I've also ran a good chunk of 8 minute miles on a few separate occasions. These are the main two elements of the block of training that will give me my confidence on the day. I think anyway!

I'm fairly low on confidence when it comes to the marathon. Been chewed up and spat out a few times. I should say that there were various issues with my training on each of those occasions.

The plan I'm on (P&D up to 70) has both a 21 miler and a 22 miler on them. At this moment in time I'm going to do them both. One of them is this Sunday anyway! If either of them don't go well I'll regret not listening to ye. I do realise they take a lot out of the system that takes a while to replenish. I think my challenges with the marathon are as much mental as physical, so I'm willing to take a risk on them, the potential LRbenefits outweighing the potential negatives in terms of me and my mind and what I need to get out of them.

The bit I think you are missing is that you have accumulated fatigue going into each LR, especially when you get to LR with MP miles, and if you take into account you will be well tapered and your reserves going into race should be as close to100% as possible and the fact of the race athmosphere its self should be X ingrident to get you over the line.

The more you push over 3 hrs on training run the more riskier it gets to get injured, and the minimal training benift is not wort it, I suspect P&D up to 70 is designed for someone aiming for bit faster than 3.30 Marathon, and their training paces would mean they wouldn't be building towards same time on their feet IMO.

hot buttered scones

JohnDozer wrote: »

I get where both yourself and Murph_D are coming from. I really do. I suppose I'm just speaking in my own context that the marathon in particular is a race where you won't have ran either the distance or the time too many times before the day itself. That presents unique challenges in terms of mental preparation. For me and my brain, I think I need to be able to say to myself in the buildup ' well, I've ran 22 miles and that went well, another 4 and a bit should be achievable'. I know that's a fairly simplistic way of looking at it, but that's the way my mind appears to work. After a 20 miler, you're still thinking in terms of still having a 10k to run, whereas with a 22 miler, you've 'only' 4 miles to run.

You point is well made about the other runs, especially the MP bits, but again I feel that the MP runs work in conjunction with the time on feet runs, because I think ticking both those boxes is what works for me. Essentially, thats what it boils down to in the run up to the race - do I trust in my training enough to know I can run for 26.2 miles in 3 and a half hours at 8 minute mile pace? For me, that trust can only come if I've ran for close enough to 3.5 hours on at least one occasion, and I've also ran a good chunk of 8 minute miles on a few separate occasions. These are the main two elements of the block of training that will give me my confidence on the day. I think anyway!

I'm fairly low on confidence when it comes to the marathon. Been chewed up and spat out a few times. I should say that there were various issues with my training on each of those occasions.

The plan I'm on (P&D up to 70) has both a 21 miler and a 22 miler on them. At this moment in time I'm going to do them both. One of them is this Sunday anyway! If either of them don't go well I'll regret not listening to ye. I do realise they take a lot out of the system that takes a while to replenish. I think my challenges with the marathon are as much mental as physical, so I'm willing to take a risk on them, the potential benefits outweighing the potential negatives in terms of me and my mind and what I need to get out of them.

Well the 21 miler this week is far enough out that if all goes to pot you have plenty of time to recover from it and then you can make a judgment call on the 22 miler . I know exactly where your coming from with regards to the confidence thing though. At least I have the benefit of having followed the up to 55 plan last year and knowing that it worked for me. The only thing I'll say is this: You wouldn't run 26.2 miles in training so why run 3.5 hours? That's the way I'm starting too look at it anyway. Trust the training. And come up with a good race strategy.

ger664

Agree with others anything between 2:40 and 3 hours is the sweet spot for long runs. If 21/22 miles goes beyond that then maybe P&D 70 plan is too high mileage for the level you are at.

hot buttered scones

Kennyg71 wrote: »

The bit I think you are missing is that you have accumulated fatigue going into each LR, especially when you get to LR with MP miles, and if you take into account you will be well tapered and your reserves going into race should be as close to100% as possible and the fact of the race athmosphere its self should be X ingrident to get you over the line.

The more you push over 3 hrs on training run the more riskier it gets to get injured, and the minimal training benift is not wort it, I suspect P&D up to 70 is designed for someone aiming for bit faster than 3.30 Marathon, and their training paces would mean they wouldn't be building towards same time on their feet IMO.

100% agree there - with the accumulated fatigue you should be looking at a 20 mile long run more like the last 20 miles of the marathon rather than the first 20

Unthought Known

I'm following the meno plan which has a couple of 22 milers in it, though I've subbed 1 for the Irish 3/4 marathon 3 weeks out.
I'm training for a 3:50 finish so is 22 too much in terms of time? In theory this will be around 3:30 if I'm running at 9:30 pace (45 secs slower than MP). Or should I pull it back to 20 miles?
I'm handling the mileage ok at the moment, but I'd hate to push it too much.

Murph_D

Unthought Known wrote: »

I'm following the meno plan which has a couple of 22 milers in it, though I've subbed 1 for the Irish 3/4 marathon 3 weeks out.
I'm training for a 3:50 finish so is 22 too much in terms of time? In theory this will be around 3:30 if I'm running at 9:30 pace (45 secs slower than MP). Or should I pull it back to 20 miles?
I'm handling the mileage ok at the moment, but I'd hate to push it too much.

I think it's worth noting that the meno plan was designed around people doing their second marathon, when TAFKAM (;)) took on mentoring those of us still needing a bit of guidance for DCM 2013 having made the debut the year before.

So a plan for runners still new to the distance, but with the 'unknown' first marathon under the belt. I those circumstances, the 22-miler is arguably still all about confidence. When you've done four or five marathons, you know you're not going to fall apart with the distance: it's about not being daunted and being more aggressive about pace, taking what you've learned into your training, and benefitting from (usually) quite rapidly increasing ability to handle more miles.

The plan worked great for me - 3:46 in marathon 2 - and I continued using it through the next couple of marathons, getting down to 3:29.

There's nothing wrong with the meno plan - do the 22 miles. I'm only suggesting these super-LRs become less necessary as you develop more experience. Trust the plan!

Murph_D

ger664 wrote: »

Agree with others anything between 2:40 and 3 hours is the sweet spot for long runs. If 21/22 miles goes beyond that then maybe P&D 70 plan is too high mileage for the level you are at.

Completely agree with this. If you can handle this kind of mileage with the sessions on that plan, a 3:30-ish marathon would be a very mediocre return, IMO.

peterc14

Wubble Wubble wrote: »

Asics sub 3:30 has 16 x 200m (200m rec) in 45-50 seconds each on the next two Tuesdays - even after a race on the Sunday (weeks 6 & 7 are the same from Monday to Friday)

Has anyone here ever tried this (or similar) before while chasing sub 3:30, and if so, what was the outcome? That kind of thing sounds like something the top runners might do for the craic. At a much faster pace of course :pac: I'm thinking I'd love to try it, but probably not without adult supervision :eek:

I am not looking forward to this next Tuesday but the following Tuesday will be even worse as there is a HM race on the Sunday..not much recovery to go straight into this on the Tuesday!!
Trust the plan?!?

annapr

Unthought Known wrote: »

I'm following the meno plan which has a couple of 22 milers in it, though I've subbed 1 for the Irish 3/4 marathon 3 weeks out.
I'm training for a 3:50 finish so is 22 too much in terms of time? In theory this will be around 3:30 if I'm running at 9:30 pace (45 secs slower than MP). Or should I pull it back to 20 miles?
I'm handling the mileage ok at the moment, but I'd hate to push it too much.

I did the Meno plan for my second marathon (which i think of as my first real marathon). I only did one of the 22 milers, not the one with 'stuff'... way longer than 3 hours on my feet, but it did give me great confidence going into the marathon. So I would recommend it. I also did it along the DCM course which was helpful too.

I was training for 4:10 so I'm not sure how all the advice about not spending more than 3 hours in training applies... I wouldn't get above 18 miles on LSR at that rate. It's not easy being slow

Wubble Wubble

peterc14 wrote: »

I am not looking forward to this next Tuesday but the following Tuesday will be even worse as there is a HM race on the Sunday..not much recovery to go straight into this on the Tuesday!!
Trust the plan?!?

If you're on the plan this weekend, 16M easy shouldn't be too bad leading in. 13M at HMP two days before could be very different.

I'm racing the Rock 'N' Roll HM on Sunday morning, so we'll have another look at it on Tuesday evening and see what I'm fit for

JohnDozer

peterc14 wrote: »

I am not looking forward to this next Tuesday but the following Tuesday will be even worse as there is a HM race on the Sunday..not much recovery to go straight into this on the Tuesday!!
Trust the plan?!?

That looks severe. Even on a basic level of a day recovery for every mile raced, its way too soon to be attempting anything approaching hard effort. I'd be running all easy miles the week after a full effort half marathon anyway. And I wouldn't be known for doing sensible things. If you do the half marathon right, your legs shouldn't be feeling able for it anyway! :-D

Kennyg71

Wubble Wubble wrote: »

If you're on the plan this weekend, 16M easy shouldn't be too bad leading in. 13M at HMP two days before could be very different.

I'm racing the Rock 'N' Roll HM on Sunday morning, so we'll have another look at it on Tuesday evening and see what I'm fit for

Agree with JD
If you race the race flat out, I would knock that session on the head, just have easy week and do some strides in easy run later in week. The benefits of raced HM will out weight one lost session.

Kennyg71

annapr wrote: »

I did the Meno plan for my second marathon (which i think of as my first real marathon). I only did one of the 22 milers, not the one with 'stuff'... way longer than 3 hours on my feet, but it did give me great confidence going into the marathon. So I would recommend it. I also did it along the DCM course which was helpful too.

I was training for 4:10 so I'm not sure how all the advice about not spending more than 3 hours in training applies... I wouldn't get above 18 miles on LSR at that rate. It's not easy being slow

I think it's a balancing act and like all things it also depends on how your body responds, maybe I'm just crocked:pac: funny enough the 22 mile with stuff would result in less time on your feet. I think long MP sessions have me most confidence, and Meno plan had plenty of these to test you along the way.

Wubble Wubble

JohnDozer wrote: »

That looks severe. Even on a basic level of a day recovery for every mile raced, its way too soon to be attempting anything approaching hard effort. I'd be running all easy miles the week after a full effort half marathon anyway. And I wouldn't be known for doing sensible things. If you do the half marathon right, your legs shouldn't be feeling able for it anyway! :-D

Kennyg71 wrote: »

Agree with JD
If you race the race flat out, I would knock that session on the head, just have easy week and do some strides in easy run later in week. The benefits of raced HM will out weight one lost session.

I know, it seems crazy that they'd even suggest such a session. I think 200 reps two days after a full tilt HM could be a bit extreme to say the least. Definitely in my case and for others operating at this level. Easy miles on Tuesday certainly sounds a lot more like the way to go for me this time.

One thing I might try, is swap the 16M easy from week 5 (i.e. this week) into next weekend. That would give me a chance of at least giving the 200s a good crack the following Tuesday.

martyboy48

Your thoughts please.....
My backround completed few marathons, pb about 3:17 DCM 2015. Glute issues hampered my running the guts of a year now but seemed to have turned a corner the last couple months and seem to be running well enough.
Have berlin marathon coming up....

Not following a definitive plan as such.. picking some mp paced long runs from p&d and doing club speed and tempo sessions(which are new to me) while uping the weekly mileage to above the 60 mark where I am now...

So my question, I have the tullamore half marathon on Saturday week. Originally I was going to race this and get an idea of what to target for berlin. Lately though I'm thinking that using it as a mp session would be a better idea. My reasoning is that the target for berlin really is to try hit sub 3:20 injury free and push on from there, maybe 3:15 as it's berlin.. I feel if racing the half goes bad I'll feel like I'm in no mans land...

Now, I don't know if I'm talking sense or looking for an excuse to not race...
Probably all comes down to not having a definitive plan but was afraid to set anything in stone as I was monitoring the injury and didn't want to force anything "in the plan"
(Sorry for long post)

Singer

martyboy48 wrote: »

Your thoughts please....

I'd go with racing it. If it were closer to Berlin I'd be a little more cautious, but you have plenty of time to recover and get some good training in. You've been doing some good training recently, it's worth pushing yourself and seeing how you get on.

denis b

martyboy48 wrote: »

Your thoughts please.....
My backround completed few marathons, pb about 3:17 DCM 2015. Glute issues hampered my running the guts of a year now but seemed to have turned a corner the last couple months and seem to be running well enough.
Have berlin marathon coming up....

Not following a definitive plan as such.. picking some mp paced long runs from p&d and doing club speed and tempo sessions(which are new to me) while uping the weekly mileage to above the 60 mark where I am now...

So my question, I have the tullamore half marathon on Saturday week. Originally I was going to race this and get an idea of what to target for berlin. Lately though I'm thinking that using it as a mp session would be a better idea. My reasoning is that the target for berlin really is to try hit sub 3:20 injury free and push on from there, maybe 3:15 as it's berlin.. I feel if racing the half goes bad I'll feel like I'm in no mans land...

Now, I don't know if I'm talking sense or looking for an excuse to not race...
Probably all comes down to not having a definitive plan but was afraid to set anything in stone as I was monitoring the injury and didn't want to force anything "in the plan"
(Sorry for long post)

It seem's as though your reasoning for running the Tullamore Half has changed. If that is really the case then why not aim to run the Half for a comparable 3:20 Marathon Finish. You have some very reasonable concerns about preventing injuries so a less intense racing experience, at this stage, may help. You still have time to continue to build and walking away from Tullamore with your target time bagged might be useful.

I would be cautious about an out and out raced Half unless it is part of a plan for your preparation.

Caveat: I fall into the cautious build, race, build, race camp :eek:

Whatever you decide - go for it.

Kennyg71

Wubble Wubble wrote: »

I know, it seems crazy that they'd even suggest such a session. I think 200 reps two days after a full tilt HM could be a bit extreme to say the least. Definitely in my case and for others operating at this level. Easy miles on Tuesday certainly sounds a lot more like the way to go for me this time.

One thing I might try, is swap the 16M easy from week 5 (i.e. this week) into next weekend. That would give me a chance of at least giving the 200s a good crack the following Tuesday.

just make sure to run you 200's at the proper intensity, I know last time I did these in club with a group, ran them way too fast and had Doms for a few days,
Not what you want at the moment.

Murph_D

Kennyg71 wrote: »

just make sure to run you 200's at the proper intensity, I know last time I did these in club with a group, ran them way too fast and had Doms for a few days,
Not what you want at the moment.

+1

TBH 16x200 at the prescribed 45-50s doesn't look too intense to me - only 3.2k total at around 5k pace - nowhere near the 800m pace you'd normally be aiming for with 200s.

That said, I would still probably stick with an easy run myself, although this would be factoring in "aul lad recovery" rules, which are more conservative than the norm.

Murph_D

martyboy48 wrote: »

Your thoughts please.....
My backround completed few marathons, pb about 3:17 DCM 2015. Glute issues hampered my running the guts of a year now but seemed to have turned a corner the last couple months and seem to be running well enough.
Have berlin marathon coming up....

Not following a definitive plan as such.. picking some mp paced long runs from p&d and doing club speed and tempo sessions(which are new to me) while uping the weekly mileage to above the 60 mark where I am now...

So my question, I have the tullamore half marathon on Saturday week. Originally I was going to race this and get an idea of what to target for berlin. Lately though I'm thinking that using it as a mp session would be a better idea. My reasoning is that the target for berlin really is to try hit sub 3:20 injury free and push on from there, maybe 3:15 as it's berlin.. I feel if racing the half goes bad I'll feel like I'm in no mans land...

Now, I don't know if I'm talking sense or looking for an excuse to not race...
Probably all comes down to not having a definitive plan but was afraid to set anything in stone as I was monitoring the injury and didn't want to force anything "in the plan"
(Sorry for long post)

I would race it. Nothing like a good HM to tune up for a good marathon. Confidence inspiring. As long as you feel you can stay injury free. Plenty of recovery time. But MP if any injury worries.

Bobby1984

I am also training for DCM and this is my training plan image (3).jpg

I didn't start with a great base prior to the plan but I have done a couple of half marathons in April and June this year which I finished in 1:51 and 1:52. Obviously I am hoping that the 15 weeks training will see great improvements in my times and that I can run a sub 3:30 marathon. The only other marathon I tackled was 6 years ago when I ran 3:48.

My 5k time of 21:22 (ran in week 1) and 10k time of 43:30 (ran in week 3) both suggest than a 3:30 in possible based on McMillan and some other online predictors. I also ran 6 * 800m intervals (Yasso session) last week with an average of 3:22 per interval. I still have some doubts that it is possible as I would consider myself as a speedster rather than an endurance athlete and also due to the fact that the weekly mileage ramps up quicker than I would like which obviously increases the risk of injury.

I decided to do a blog on the 15 week training and preparation as a way of ensuring that I stick to the plan. For anyone interested, here is the link

https://marathonmanpart2.blogspot.ie/

pgarr

martyboy48 wrote: »

Your thoughts please.....
My backround completed few marathons, pb about 3:17 DCM 2015. Glute issues hampered my running the guts of a year now but seemed to have turned a corner the last couple months and seem to be running well enough.
Have berlin marathon coming up....

Not following a definitive plan as such.. picking some mp paced long runs from p&d and doing club speed and tempo sessions(which are new to me) while uping the weekly mileage to above the 60 mark where I am now...

So my question, I have the tullamore half marathon on Saturday week. Originally I was going to race this and get an idea of what to target for berlin. Lately though I'm thinking that using it as a mp session would be a better idea. My reasoning is that the target for berlin really is to try hit sub 3:20 injury free and push on from there, maybe 3:15 as it's berlin.. I feel if racing the half goes bad I'll feel like I'm in no mans land...

Now, I don't know if I'm talking sense or looking for an excuse to not race...
Probably all comes down to not having a definitive plan but was afraid to set anything in stone as I was monitoring the injury and didn't want to force anything "in the plan"
(Sorry for long post)

It sounds like you are in good form at the moment Marty. There is likely a part of you wanting to get some confidence for Berlin.

I would race it. You are killing the mileage and it's been an excellent recovery for you. Go show it in Tullamore

From my own experience the other week - I had similar thoughts before a 10 miler and race day got to me . Glad it did - I'm feeling a lot more confident now

Kennyg71

Bobby1984 wrote: »

I am also training for DCM and this is my training plan image (3).jpg

I didn't start with a great base prior to the plan but I have done a couple of half marathons in April and June this year which I finished in 1:51 and 1:52. Obviously I am hoping that the 15 weeks training will see great improvements in my times and that I can run a sub 3:30 marathon. The only other marathon I tackled was 6 years ago when I ran 3:48.

My 5k time of 21:22 (ran in week 1) and 10k time of 43:30 (ran in week 3) both suggest than a 3:30 in possible based on McMillan and some other online predictors. I also ran 6 * 800m intervals (Yasso session) last week with an average of 3:22 per interval. I still have some doubts that it is possible as I would consider myself as a speedster rather than an endurance athlete and also due to the fact that the weekly mileage ramps up quicker than I would like which obviously increases the risk of injury.

I decided to do a blog on the 15 week training and preparation as a way of ensuring that I stick to the plan. For anyone interested, here is the link

https://marathonmanpart2.blogspot.ie/

No expert but your MLR mid week looks a little light on mileage, especially if endurance is an issue, and you don't seem to have any target sessions for MP runs, unless steady is MP, but I know one of other lads has had success with similar approach, DiegoB if you want to look at his log, in training logs forum, your easy range 5min - 5.25 looks little hot, I'd say 5.25 near Mark for easy.

There is more than one viable approach and I am only taking from approach I have been use to. I suppose though after all said you opted for the plan so may as well trust it, and if it doesn't go to plan see you in six years

adrian522

martyboy48 wrote: »

Your thoughts please.....
My backround completed few marathons, pb about 3:17 DCM 2015. Glute issues hampered my running the guts of a year now but seemed to have turned a corner the last couple months and seem to be running well enough.
Have berlin marathon coming up....

Not following a definitive plan as such.. picking some mp paced long runs from p&d and doing club speed and tempo sessions(which are new to me) while uping the weekly mileage to above the 60 mark where I am now...

So my question, I have the tullamore half marathon on Saturday week. Originally I was going to race this and get an idea of what to target for berlin. Lately though I'm thinking that using it as a mp session would be a better idea. My reasoning is that the target for berlin really is to try hit sub 3:20 injury free and push on from there, maybe 3:15 as it's berlin.. I feel if racing the half goes bad I'll feel like I'm in no mans land...

Now, I don't know if I'm talking sense or looking for an excuse to not race...
Probably all comes down to not having a definitive plan but was afraid to set anything in stone as I was monitoring the injury and didn't want to force anything "in the plan"
(Sorry for long post)

I was in the same situation last year and ended up doing the tullamore half at MP as part of a longer run. So 7 Easy, 13MP, 2 Easy. I found this a great session and a great confidence builder for Berlin. The recovery wasn't as severe and I was well set for the big day.

I'm going to go against the grain here and say it may be better not to race it all out. 4 Weeks isn't a long time, if you race it flat out, you take the following week for recovery and then you are into the taper, so you are really doing a 4 week taper.

That's fine if the marathon is not that big a deal for you and you want to race a good half but if the main goal is Berlin I'd do it as a session, and have a more ideal run in to the race in Berlin.

ger664

I am not a fan of racing a half marathon flat out in a marathon training cycle. Takes too much time to recovery afterwards. For me a 10K or ten mile race will give you the same feedback as regards where you are at without upset the training schedule. I would do the race as an mp session instead if you can keep the pace in check.

OOnegative

I'd echo the previous two posters Marty, use it as an MP session, most I raced in my last two marathon cycles was 10 miles and it went well(Rottterdam did 100% Barca was down to illness) but greater training impetus to be gained from running it at MP or 10 secs faster at most but not at all out HMP pace. Gaillimh Abú!!

Spirogyra

Took the morning off entirely and went for coffee..not sure when that last happened, but it was badly needed frankly, it's been a tough 6 months even...the body needed a chance to repair and found myself walking the mile home a great deal 'more briskly'

peterc14

Wubble Wubble wrote: »

I'm racing the Rock 'N' Roll HM on Sunday morning, so we'll have another look at it on Tuesday evening and see what I'm fit for

How did you get on at the HM....Did you race it at HMP? I have a half this Sunday and its supposed to be at HMP as per the plan, but not sure whether I should go all out at it or be a bit more conservative.