Zimbabwe hunter 'crushed to death by shot elephant'

ScumLord · 24-05-2017 04:47PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Preventing a species going extinct VS killing the guys who are facilitating their extinction. It's an easy choice.

Managed reserves are helping prevent species going extinct. The rub is they're funded by rich knobs that want trophies. If you can come up with a better way of funding them while employing locals then you should definitely make the suggestion to the relevant authorities in those countries.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 24-05-2017 04:56PM

Most of the guys who engage in trophy hunting suffer with problems downstairs.

steddyeddy · 24-05-2017 04:56PM

ScumLord wrote: »

Managed reserves are helping prevent species going extinct. The rub is they're funded by rich knobs that want trophies. If you can come up with a better way of funding them while employing locals then you should definitely make the suggestion to the relevant authorities in those countries.

Yea shoot more poachers frankly. Poachers who also kill natives and anti poaching patrols by the way.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 24-05-2017 05:00PM

Maybe the poachers should be captured and then placed into a cage with an adult wild African bull elephant.

ScumLord · 24-05-2017 05:00PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yea shoot more poachers frankly. Poachers who also kill natives and anti poaching patrols by the way.

Who's going to pay for that? Not the local government. Without these parks it would be a free for all for poachers. Nothing would stand in their way.

That's just the reality of the situation, protecting these animals costs money. Money the local nations don't have or won't spend on the protection of wild animals.

These parks do what all modern nations do, turn things into resources that can be sold. Making the animals worth money to someone is the only way to save them in a capitalistic world.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 24-05-2017 05:05PM

ScumLord wrote: »

Who's going to pay for that? Not the local government. Without these parks it would be a free for all for poachers. Nothing would stand in their way.

That's just the reality of the situation, protecting these animals costs money. Money the local nations don't have or won't spend on the protection of wild animals.

These parks do what all modern nations do, turn things into resources that can be sold. Making the animals worth money to someone is the only way to save them in a capitalistic world.

Agreed, it would be great if the countries these beautiful beasts inhabit actually functioned properly and could set up fully State funded wild life reserves.

archer22 · 24-05-2017 05:07PM

Deleted User wrote: »

If the kid was a poacher, he'd have held the head under the water.

This is a man who doesn't even do it for the money, he just loves to kill certain people.

As you brought up the "he loves kids" angle, what age was the youngest poacher he's shot dead?

You have very strange ideas as to what those poachers are...they are not kids out to get a meal for the pot.
They are highly organised criminal gangs and even terrorist groups out to finance their other activities.They are armed with some astounding weaponry..a lot of it looted military hardware from Libyan military arsenals after the destruction of the country by western air power.These weapons have now flooded sub Saharan Africa.

There have even been cases of poachers using heavy machine guns to mow down entire Elephant herds...and they have no qualms either about mowing down any rangers who get in their way.Neither do they show any empathy for the dead rangers or the families they leave behind.
Those people are murderous scum who care for nothing but themselves and only a fool would take chances with them or have sympathy for them.

Yes perhaps some of the good guys fighting them do take pleasure in outsmarting and killing them, but we are not in their boots so in no position to judge them on that.

BTW the guy I was talking about does get paid as do all of them...they can't live on fresh air!.

archer22 · 24-05-2017 05:13PM

ScumLord wrote: »

Who's going to pay for that? Not the local government. Without these parks it would be a free for all for poachers. Nothing would stand in their way.

That's just the reality of the situation, protecting these animals costs money. Money the local nations don't have or won't spend on the protection of wild animals.

These parks do what all modern nations do, turn things into resources that can be sold. Making the animals worth money to someone is the only way to save them in a capitalistic world.

The thousands of people go to Africa to shoot these animals with only their cameras are the ones who pay.The tourism industry there is worth tens of millions of dollars to the economy.

ScumLord · 24-05-2017 05:20PM

archer22 wrote: »

The thousands of people go to Africa to shoot these animals with only their cameras are the ones who pay.The tourism industry there is worth tens of millions of dollars to the economy.

They may go some way towards funding the parks, I haven't heard anything to say those type of tourists are covering the cost. Those type of tourists probably aren't spending huge amounts of money. How many of those types of tourists would it take to replace a hunter who's paying $50,000. What's the difference n profits? One hunter isn't going to cost as much to accommodate and 400 people.

Are you just coming up with things off the top of your head with no actual knowledge of numbers, costs and profits. You can't just say "do this instead", will it actaully work?

c_man · 24-05-2017 05:25PM

A father of five, God help his family.

24-05-2017 05:31PM

archer22 wrote: »

You have very strange ideas as to what those poachers are...they are not kids out to get a meal for the pot.
They are highly organised criminal gangs and even terrorist groups out to finance their other activities.They are armed with some astounding weaponry..a lot of it looted military hardware from Libyan military arsenals after the destruction of the country by western air power.These weapons have now flooded sub Saharan Africa.

There have even been cases of poachers using heavy machine guns to mow down entire Elephant herds...and they have no qualms either about mowing down any rangers who get in their way.Neither do they show any empathy for the dead rangers or the families they leave behind.
Those people are murderous scum who care for nothing but themselves and only a fool would take chances with them or have sympathy for them.

Yes perhaps some of the good guys fighting them do take pleasure in outsmarting and killing them, but we are not in their boots so in no position to judge them on that.

BTW the guy I was talking about does get paid as do all of them...they can't live on fresh air!.

I'm fully aware the poachers are criminal, are armed with guns and it's for money, not necessarily food. But you said he loves ambushing and killing poachers, so it's not like he assesses them. Even if you said it was a job, and it is legal, that would be one thing, it would be akin to a soldier. But to derive pleasure from killing people, even "the enemy"...

ohnonotgmail · 24-05-2017 05:36PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Most of the guys who engage in trophy hunting suffer with problems downstairs.

That must have been an interesting study to conduct.

archer22 · 24-05-2017 05:38PM

ScumLord wrote: »

They may go some way towards funding the parks, I haven't heard anything to say those type of tourists are covering the cost. Those type of tourists probably aren't spending huge amounts of money. How many of those types of tourists would it take to replace a hunter who's paying $50,000. What's the difference n profits? One hunter isn't going to cost as much to accommodate and 400 people.

Are you just coming up with things off the top of your head with no actual knowledge of numbers, costs and profits. You can't just say "do this instead", will it actaully work?

No I don't know the actual figures but nobody gets accommodation free...and 400 are going to pay 400 times more for accommodation than one individual..so you do the maths on that as to which is the most valuable to the economy.
Also 400 are going to buy 400 times more meals etc than one individual, so the 50,000 dollars aint looking so big now.
Another issue is those trophy hunters stress and terrorise the herds making them defensive and dangerous to both the ordinary tourists and rangers.
You will find that most parks Don't allow trophy hunting thats why there was so much outrage when Cecil the Lion was lured out of the park to be shot by the American dentist.
Trophy hunting is a grey area where much criminality takes place and corruption is rife.

ScumLord · 24-05-2017 05:52PM

archer22 wrote: »

No I don't know the actual figures but nobody gets accommodation free...and 400 are going to pay 400 times more for accommodation than one individual..so you do the maths on that as to which is the most valuable to the economy.
Also 400 are going to buy 400 times more meals etc than one individual, so the 50,000 dollars aint looking so big now.

400 people don't pay 400 times more. Your talking about two classes of people here. You still have to pay for enough food to feed 400 people, the profit margins are usually tighter on larger groups, IE: dinner cost €6 to make and they sell it for €10. For the rich fecker the food might cost €10 and they charge him €50. Same goes for accommodation, the 400 are going to be staying in a more reasonably priced accommodation with much tighter margins. The rich fecker is going to stay at some 5 star hotel with much higher profit margins. It's very possible that more of his €50,000 is going to be put towards conservation than the 400 people with huge overheads like insurance and staff.

So the $50,000 is still looking good. Especially if you have a few of them.

Discodog · 24-05-2017 06:29PM

dodderangler wrote: »

Yes it does. If you don't own any livestock or are in full view of the wildlife and effects predation and vermin have on the land and farmers then you have no opinion. You can't say this and that about hunters without knowing what we do.

The great Dictator has spoken. I will kill animals & ban opinions. All these opinions on Boards must drive you nuts.

Discodog · 24-05-2017 06:31PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

True. But they were not there to shoot those elephants.

So sorry that we shot the wrong elephants :rolleyes:

ohnonotgmail · 24-05-2017 08:30PM

Discodog wrote: »

So sorry that we shot the wrong elephants :rolleyes:

It doesnt appear from the article that they were there to shoot any elephants.

dodderangler · 24-05-2017 10:01PM

Discodog wrote: »

The great Dictator has spoken. I will kill animals & ban opinions. All these opinions on Boards must drive you nuts.

Nope. Just the idiotic ones. Especially the childish responses like yours. Bet you think that wildlife is like a Disney film. The deer get up in the morning and play hopscotch with the local fox and then later the rabbits go to the weasels house to play poker?

steddyeddy · 24-05-2017 10:46PM

ScumLord wrote: »

They may go some way towards funding the parks, I haven't heard anything to say those type of tourists are covering the cost. Those type of tourists probably aren't spending huge amounts of money. How many of those types of tourists would it take to replace a hunter who's paying $50,000. What's the difference n profits? One hunter isn't going to cost as much to accommodate and 400 people.

Are you just coming up with things off the top of your head with no actual knowledge of numbers, costs and profits. You can't just say "do this instead", will it actaully work?

In 2013 the tourism revenue for Tanzania was 4.4 billion Dollars.

ScumLord · 24-05-2017 11:35PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

In 2013 the tourism revenue for Tanzania was 4.4 billion Dollars.

Perhaps, but sort of irrelevant. Tanzania is a country, not a nature reserve. What you really need to compare is reserves that do allow hunting, to reserves that don't and how effective they are.

Discodog · 25-05-2017 07:27AM

dodderangler wrote: »

Nope. Just the idiotic ones. Especially the childish responses like yours. Bet you think that wildlife is like a Disney film. The deer get up in the morning and play hopscotch with the local fox and then later the rabbits go to the weasels house to play poker?

The deer get shot by idiots who should never own a gun. I worked with rescues to try & save them. I have hand reared fawns that were orphaned when their mothers were shot because they "taste nice".

I have helped as vets have tried to save the legs of animals, cut to the bone by snares & helped as they try to find every shotgun pellet.

I have rescued swans, ducks & geese that have discarded fishing line wrapped around their necks, cutting into their flesh. I have removed countless fish hooks from wildlife.

Yes just like a Disney film.

You claim that "townies" know nothing but the countryside would be a far better place in their hands than with you, so called, conservationists.

Stigura · 25-05-2017 07:39AM

Anyone who'd like to gain a bit of insight to a Real " Hunter " need look no further than the writings of Jim Corbett. Legendary hunter and killer of man eating tigers, back in the 1900's, India.

Most of my life I disregarded and actively avoided his books. Assumed they'd be full of the usual, 'As the mighty beast broke cover and charged me, I stood my ground with steely resolve. Letting it have both barrels only at the last minute ..... Blah, blah, f**king blah.'

As it is, it's far more along the lines of; " I got a call from the Governor; 'Corbett? I hear you're the man for a tiger? Well, get yeself down to kwalaloop. There's a man eater down there. Taken six villagers, It needs sorting.' And I thought; Oh jesus! Not again! Why Me every bloody time?! "

" Three days later, I'm creeping down this track. Absolutely bricking it. Knowing this ghastly thing could explode out of the jungle all around me at any second. Best laxative known to man! I was so terrified I could hardly breathe ..... "

Seriously. Pro or Anti; Read Man Eaters Of Kumaon.

Discodog · 25-05-2017 07:43AM

Stigura wrote: »

Anyone who'd like to gain a bit of insight to a Real " Hunter " need look no further than the writings of Jim Corbett. Legendary hunter and killer of man eating tigers, back in the 1900's, India.

Most of my life I disregarded and actively avoided his books. Assumed they'd be full of the usual, 'As the mighty beast broke cover and charged me, I stood my ground with steely resolve. Letting it have both barrels only at the last minute ..... Blah, blah, f**king blah.'

As it is, it's far more along the lines of; " I got a call from the Governor; 'Corbett? I hear you're the man for a tiger? Well, get yeself down to kwalaloop. There's a man eater down there. Taken six villagers, It needs sorting.' And I thought; Oh jesus! Not again! Why Me every bloody time?! "

" Three days later, I'm creeping down this track. Absolutely bricking it. Knowing this ghastly thing could explode out of the jungle all around me at any second. Best laxative known to man! I was so terrified I could hardly breathe ..... "

Seriously. Pro or Anti; Read Man Eaters Of Kumaon.

Yes but that man wasn't like modern "hunters". He was more akin to the marksmen who are licensed to cull deer etc. He wasn't doing it for fun & paying a fortune for the privilege.

steddyeddy · 25-05-2017 07:43AM

ScumLord wrote: »

Perhaps, but sort of irrelevant. Tanzania is a country, not a nature reserve. What you really need to compare is reserves that do allow hunting, to reserves that don't and how effective they are.

A country which gets most of its tourism revenue from nature reserves. Most healthy people don't enjoy killing elephants. The market of these types is too small to replace traditional safari tourism. Trophy hunting sickens most people.

Stigura · 25-05-2017 07:50AM

Discodog wrote: »

Yes but that man wasn't like modern "hunters". He was more akin to the marksmen who are licensed to cull deer etc. He wasn't doing it for fun & paying a fortune for the privilege.

Have ye read it?

Discodog · 25-05-2017 07:57AM

Stigura wrote: »

Have ye read it?

No. I have heard of him & how he would spend weeks on trying to cull one Tiger. He was performing a humane function as Tigers will only come close to humans if they are unable to catch food due to injury or old age. I can imagine how he would view modern "hunters".

ford2600 · 25-05-2017 11:59AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

A country which gets most of its tourism revenue from nature reserves. Most healthy people don't enjoy killing elephants. The market of these types is too small to replace traditional safari tourism. Trophy hunting sickens most people.

Tanzania is huge, and give road quality really hard to get around quickly.

Poaching is big business; by collecting $50,000 of one hunter they can pay a lot of locals to turn from poachers to gamekeepers.

They are pretty clever about it, and allow hunting only in areas where populations are very healthy and may need culling anyhow.rtegy

This strategy, while it allows pretty horrible types* to hunt majestic animals, is actually good overall for the animal population.

*I occasionally hunt deer when they cause issue with ash plantation. The population locally has exploded in last 10 years and is almost out of control. There has been numerous accidents but no reaction whatsoever from Department, I suppose they'll wait until someone is dead from it.
I've spent time in Tanzania and Alaska, and the Big 5 hunter type are amongst the nastiest of people I've met, very very different to most people I known in different cultures who hunt. It's all about the trophy.

In Tanzania I was lucky to hunt with bow and arrow( I just went with them for the day) with the Hadza tribe. No chance of obesity there!

ScumLord · 25-05-2017 01:02PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

A country which gets most of its tourism revenue from nature reserves. Most healthy people don't enjoy killing elephants. The market of these types is too small to replace traditional safari tourism. Trophy hunting sickens most people.

Does it get most it's revenue from nature reserves? Which ones are most effective? Are the ones catering for large crowds of people basically just big zoos?

steddyeddy · 25-05-2017 01:12PM

ScumLord wrote: »

Does it get most it's revenue from nature reserves? Which ones are most effective? Are the ones catering for large crowds of people basically just big zoos?

Yep. Those and Kilimanjaro. Ngorogoro and Serengeti I'd guess. Increase trophy hunting and you risk alienating the normal tourists.

ScumLord · 25-05-2017 01:26PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yep. Those and Kilimanjaro. Ngorogoro and Serengeti I'd guess. Increase trophy hunting and you risk alienating the normal tourists.

Possibly, I think I'll have to look into this whole thing in more detail at some stage. I doubt it's going to be straightforward and easy to say trophy hunting should be outright banned. It's very emotional on both side and the information is questionable.

A quick search brought up this. It says the money brought in from hunting at a national level is tiny, but that it's going to more rural places that have limited options.

Africacheck.org wrote:

"A resource economist who worked across Southern Africa and established a national environmental economics programme in Namibia, Dr Jon Barnes, wrote in a 2001 paper: “Consumptive wildlife uses [such as hunting] are relatively unimportant in terms of economic contribution, but they are the only use values possible in the less well-endowed two-thirds of the wildlife estate.”

Similarly, Dr John Hanks, a zoologist and former chief executive of WWF South Africa, argues that “where there are high wildlife densities and scenically attractive landscapes, there is greater potential for photographic tourism than for trophy hunting.

“However, in those areas where large mammals are few and scattered and the scenery is mundane, photographic safaris will not be viable. Here the better land-use option for biodiversity conservation can often be trophy hunting rather than domestic livestock and shifting agriculture. More significantly for resident communities, they have an incentive to protect the large mammals that would otherwise be seen as a threat to their livelihoods.”

https://africacheck.org/factsheets/factsheet-how-much-does-hunting-contribute-to-african-economies/

Zimbabwe hunter 'crushed to death by shot elephant'

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