2016-17 PRO12 Final buildup

thomond2006 · 23-05-2017 11:03am #1

Cheaper tickets (vs the normal link on the website) are available here: http://www.ticketmaster.ie/event/18005113E37C5FDB?did=team2

23-05-2017 11:07am

So you can't use the seat map to get an idea of how many sold, or can I just not see the option? I'll be going anyway, admittedly bought the tickets in anticipation of Leinster making it. Munster should be able to overpower Scarlets.

phog · 23-05-2017 2:19pm

Owens confirmed as the ref for Saturday

wp_rathead · 23-05-2017 2:58pm

phog wrote: »

Owens confirmed as the ref for Saturday

Guarantee that some Scarlets fan will still complain about him being a Pro12 ref

Dog Botherer · 23-05-2017 7:09pm

wp_rathead wrote: »

Guarantee that some Scarlets fan will still complain about him being a Pro12 ref

No joke, I've seen him referred to as "Nigel O'Wens" more than a few times.

PTH2009 · 23-05-2017 9:29pm

http://www.scarletfever.org/forum/scarlets-general_forum1.html

Scarlets side of things, they think they have it won and munster are a limited team.

They dont seem to be happy with Owens being Ref. Why not an neutral ref ??

The Lost Sheep · 23-05-2017 9:45pm

PTH2009 wrote:

They dont seem to be happy with Owens being Ref. Why not an neutral ref ??

what neutral ref do you get? Do you pick Marius as beat of italians? Which Scottish ref??
He's one of the top5 refs in the world and his nationality shouldn't come into it.

thomond2006 · 23-05-2017 9:48pm

Some Welsh are never happy so there's no point pandering to them. After the Munster match they were screaming CONSPIRACY after a game reffed by an RFU official born in Pontypool.

PTH2009 · 23-05-2017 9:48pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

what neutral ref do you get? Do you pick Marius as beat of italians? Which Scottish ref??
He's one of the top5 refs in the world and his nationality shouldn't come into it.

Wayne Barnes or another English guy ???

The Lost Sheep · 23-05-2017 10:08pm

PTH2009 wrote:

Wayne Barnes or another English guy ???

Owens is best ref around and league should have it's best ref doing its premier game of the season. There is no way you can say Owens or any ref at this level will be biased. Theres nothing for them to gain from being biased. They only suffer long term if they're seen to be biased

phog · 23-05-2017 10:25pm

The MRSC organised two buses to the final, they were fully booked in a matter of hours.

pickarooney · 24-05-2017 5:45am

PTH2009 wrote: »

http://www.scarletfever.org/forum/scarlets-general_forum1.html

Scarlets side of things, they think they have it won and munster are a limited team.

They dont seem to be happy with Owens being Ref. Why not an neutral ref ??

Jesus, those blokes are nutters.
Oi, nuttahs!

Erik Shin · 24-05-2017 5:51am

Scarlets

pickarooney wrote: »

Jesus, those blokes are nutters.
Oi, nuttahs!

There's a few knowledgeable posters in there though, read a few comments that are pretty spot on

errlloyd · 24-05-2017 9:08am

To be fair to scarlets fans, they're consistent on not liking Owens. I lurk on there a fair bit

Webbs · 24-05-2017 9:41am

Neil Francis

Its not bias that a lot of Scarlets (and other Welsh fans to be fair) complain about its that Owens lets a lot go, taking players out beyond ruck, blocking runners, and loose interpretations around the breakdown. Its been a historical thing that Munster have been perceived to get the rub of the green from Owens in matches and not just against Welsh opposition (have seen the very same comments on Leicester fan forums in the past).

Anyway I digress, read through the scarletfever thread on the match and they seem to have pretty much nailed the task ahead for them. They need a fast aggressive defense in the tight areas whilst at same time getting quick ball for themselves for what is obviously a more creative backline to have space to work in before the Munster rush defence creates mistakes.

Podge_irl · 24-05-2017 10:45am

pickarooney wrote: »

Jesus, those blokes are nutters.
Oi, nuttahs!

Ah we're all nutters.

I don't have a problem with Owens (though he's not as good as he used to be) though the optics of it aren't exactly fantastic. I wouldn't doubt the impartiality of any ref really - they have a job to do and are assessed based on how well they do it after all - but there is a reason you get neutral refs for internationals all the same.

Anyhoos, Scarlets are on quite the run of form - after the Leinster match I'm giving up on making predictions or pronouncements. Should be a good game.

24-05-2017 11:23am

Podge_irl wrote: »

I don't have a problem with Owens (though he's not as good as he used to be) though the optics of it aren't exactly fantastic. I wouldn't doubt the impartiality of any ref really - they have a job to do and are assessed based on how well they do it after all - but there is a reason you get neutral refs for internationals all the same.

Fairly sure in Rugby Championship down south they don't always have neutral refs anymore. I can definitely remember NZ refs reffing NZ before anyway.

phog · 24-05-2017 12:03pm

Evans free to play

Tony Leen‏ @tonyleen

@scarlets_rugby's Steff Evans free to play in Pro12 final after being cleared by hearing. @Munsterrugby

Highly unusual to allow him play

irishbucsfan · 24-05-2017 12:05pm

Red card has been rescinded. So I guess its not unusual if the ruling is that it was wrong to red card him.

Cookiemunster · 24-05-2017 12:05pm

Scarlets

phog wrote: »

Evans free to play

Highly unusual to allow him play

The red card was rescinded according to the BBC.

irishbucsfan · 24-05-2017 12:07pm

If Leinster had won that game I guarantee that red card would have stood...

phog · 24-05-2017 12:08pm

More on Evans

david kelly‏ @dk3lly

"decided, by a majority, that the Player undertook a lawful tackle in a manner that was consistent with the laws of the game."

phog · 24-05-2017 12:10pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If Leinster had won that game I guarantee that red card would have stood...

That's more or less what I meant when I said highly unusual to allow him play. If they upheld the citing then he would have received a ban.

Anyway, for the player himself I'm happy that to gets to play in the final.

irishbucsfan · 24-05-2017 12:11pm

phog wrote: »

More on Evans

It absolutely was not a lawful tackle. They're completely mad.

A yellow card I can completely accept, but that was a clear tip tackle and ringrose landed past the horizontal without a shadow of a doubt.

Buer · 24-05-2017 12:15pm

That is an utter disgrace and makes a complete mockery of the game. Munster should be rightfully very upset if he stars and they lose.

It's a throwback to a few years ago when the unions used turn a blind eye to anything untoward in an interpro.

Ringrose could have had a very serious injury. Completely unintentional but completely deserved red card.

phog · 24-05-2017 12:20pm

Taken From MFs

A Disciplinary Panel convened in Edinburgh this morning to consider the red card decision against Steff Evans (No 11) of Scarlets under Law 10.4 (e) - Dangerous Tackling.

The incident occurred during Scarlets' Guinness PRO12 Semi-Final against Leinster Rugby at the RDS Arena on Friday, May 19 when referee Marius Mitrea deemed the player to have committed an act of foul play against an opponent player (No 13).

The Disciplinary Panel - Roddy Dunlop QC (Chair), Roddy MacLeod and Iain Leslie (all Scotland) - decided, by a majority, that the Player undertook a lawful tackle in a manner that was consistent with the laws of the game.

The tackle only became dangerous as a result of the intervention of Scarlets No 3 (Samson Lee). The Panel having directed itself under reference to the decision of the Appeal Committee in Ross Ford and Jonny Gray (RWC 2015) decided, by a majority, that this meant that the red card should be rescinded.

The player is therefore free to play.

Podge_irl · 24-05-2017 12:21pm

I could somewhat understand no ban to be honest - the punishment out was fairly severe and the incident was more unfortunate than anything else. They're completely wrong to say it wasn't a red card offense by their own criteria though.

thomond2006 · 24-05-2017 1:11pm

Bottom line is a player got dropped on his head and there's no suspension.

razorblunt · 24-05-2017 1:43pm

Scarlets

They've stated that it was Samson Lee joining the tackle that led to the tip.

awec · 24-05-2017 1:45pm

I can see where they are coming from. Evans himself did nothing illegal.

Former Former · 24-05-2017 1:50pm

Scarlets

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y64A507fKr0

It's Evans left arm that does the lifting. Maybe Lee contributes to the momentum of Ringrose hitting the deck, but it's Evans who puts him in the air.

He's incredibly lucky.

Buer · 24-05-2017 1:52pm

If they deem that Lee caused the tip tackle, then why isn't he being cited? Evans lifted a man up. The onus should be on him for his landing. Another player tipped him and Evans lost him and brought him down on his head.

It's essentially a ruling that suggests, dumping a player on his head is acceptable in certain circumstances.

Podge_irl · 24-05-2017 1:57pm

Buer wrote: »

If they deem that Lee caused the tip tackle, then why isn't he being cited?

Can the citing panel do anything to a player that was not referred to them?

leakyboots · 24-05-2017 1:58pm

I posted at the time that I didn't think Evans was 100% at fault, that Lee acted as a 'hinge'... but then a red card is awarded - ultimately the right decision because of the outcome.

It's either a red or it's not in this instance because of the outcome, so to rescind the card is bonkers. Say 'card was punishment enough at the time' and leave it at that.

molloyjh · 24-05-2017 1:59pm

Cop. Out.

That is all.

Former Former · 24-05-2017 2:01pm

Scarlets

Podge_irl wrote: »

Can the citing panel do anything to a player that was not referred to them?

Yeah, this is the situation I think.

I'm glad for Evans on a personal level because a) he's been the breakthrough player of the season and b) there was no malice in that tackle.

But for correct application of the rules, consistency of decisions, deterrent to foul play and attempts to reduce head injuries, that's a criminal decision by the committee.

awec · 24-05-2017 2:04pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Can the citing panel do anything to a player that was not referred to them?

I assume they are saying it wasn't Evans fault, he did nothing illegal. Samson Lee came in and rotated Ringrose beyond the horizontal. The citing window for the match is closed, so no further action can be taken?

TBH I am happy to see a bit of common sense applied, even though in this case it looks like nobody is going to get punished for Ringrose hitting the deck head first.

Buer · 24-05-2017 2:04pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Can the citing panel do anything to a player that was not referred to them?

No but if Lee is clearly seen as the instigator then surely the commissioner would note this in his review? If he didn't, then he sees Evans as the culprit.

There's a real lack of consistency on show.

The fact that the ruling was "majority" and not unanimous is curious.

Bazzo · 24-05-2017 2:06pm

Buer wrote: »

If they deem that Lee caused the tip tackle, then why isn't he being cited? Evans lifted a man up. The onus should be on him for his landing. Another player tipped him and Evans lost him and brought him down on his head.

It's essentially a ruling that suggests, dumping a player on his head is acceptable in certain circumstances.

Lee wasn't referred for citing and the window has passed.

Tim Robbins · 24-05-2017 2:33pm

Scarlets

Stef Evans red card overturned...
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/steff-evans-cleared-to-play-in-pro12-final-against-munster-1.3094506

Don't agree with this. A few months ago we were all told the sanctions for anything to do with the head would be happening. Now this?

It was a dangerous tackle - don't care if there were mitigating circumstances. Red card was right and would have thought even 1 week ban minimum.

vienne86 · 24-05-2017 2:35pm

Scarlets

Bazzo wrote: »

Lee wasn't referred for citing and the window has passed.

....and it looks as if he should have been cited.

thomond2006 · 24-05-2017 2:37pm

Lee did absolutely nothing tbh, barely touched Ringrose based on the real-time clip.

touts · 24-05-2017 2:39pm

It's a debatable one. If it was a Munster player we'd all say justice was done and a red card was enough. Anyway it'll just make it more fun when we beat them and the Welsh fans have to complain about how they were hard done by having a Welsh Ref and one of their players not banned.

I can't get over their dislike of Owens. I'd be happy that he could remain impartial even if his mother was playing scrum half for the opposition.

Tim Robbins · 24-05-2017 2:40pm

Scarlets

thomond2006 wrote: »

Lee did absolutely nothing tbh.

Between the two of them a lad ended up falling on his head. That has to be sanctioned otherwise the game is a farce.

What I would like to see if incidents like this to get a blue card - meaning that all players involved in the tackle get investigated. Ref makes best decision he can best on quick replay. But in my view both of them involved in that tackle were at best very clumsy and should face minimum sanction.

This means that players know when double tackling to be extra careful.

Otherwise as posters have suggested, a lot more are going to be falling on their head.

The Lost Sheep · 24-05-2017 2:43pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Between the two of them a lad ended up falling on his head. That has to be sanctioned otherwise the game is a farce.

What I would like to see if incidents like this to get a blue card - meaning that all players involved in the tackle get investigated. Ref makes best decision he can best on quick replay. But in my view both of them involved in that tackle were at best very clumsy and should face minimum sanction.

This means that players know when double tackling to be extra careful.

Otherwise as posters have suggested, a lot more are going to be falling on their head.

We dont need any form of card for all players to be investigated. The ref/TMO and if after CO can investigate actions of any player.
Both shouldnt get a sanction

phog · 24-05-2017 3:28pm

TRK's - Get Busy Winning

Webbs · 24-05-2017 3:40pm

Neil Francis

thomond2006 wrote: »

Lee did absolutely nothing tbh, barely touched Ringrose based on the real-time clip.

Thats really not the case if you watch it again, Lee holds and spins Ringrose around nothing Evans could do about that. You can tell thats the case by the speed that Ringrose spins round that could not happen without Lees intervention.
Only thing that should have come from this is a possible citation for Lee for not placing Ringrose safely.

.ak · 24-05-2017 10:40pm

Scarlets

Nah, for me its Evens at fault. He lifts his legs beyond the horizontal, that's enough to cause an accident, which is what happened here. Sure, Lee gets involved and possibly results in Ringrose ending up on his head, but Evens puts him in that position in the first place, it's not like it was a legal tackle turned into an illegal one, he lifted his legs beyond the horizontal, you can even see Evens clinching his legs and twisting his back to try and drive him backwards. He was trying to put a big shot in and fecked it up, and caused an accident because of it.

Total cop out.

On the other hand, in a purely selfish way I'm glad he's playing, because he'll make the match exciting and want to get my money's worth.

Yeah_Right · 24-05-2017 10:45pm

Scarlets

Natalie Creamy Giraffe wrote: »

Fairly sure in Rugby Championship down south they don't always have neutral refs anymore. I can definitely remember NZ refs reffing NZ before anyway.

Not in the Rugby Championship but it is fairly common in Super Rugby. Quite often the ref and TJs will be from the host country no matter what teams are playing. No one gives it a second thought. I can't believe that propel actually think a ref would biased at this level. Useless yes but not biased.

scott1974 · 24-05-2017 11:03pm

I think the red card for Evans was right at the time (although slight harsh given Lee's input). The underlying point is that the tackle was dangerous and could have been serious yet it is now deemed to have been not deserving of a suspension. It makes the Pro12 looks amateurish at best, also given Healy's ban for an incident that didn't even warrant a penalty at the time it lacks any consistency.

phog · 25-05-2017 10:08am

Comparing some of our team selections

Pos 2015 Final v Glasgow V Scarlets (TP) Pro12 S/F v Ospreys
15 Felix Jones Jaco Taute Simon Zebo
14 Keith Earls Darren Sweetnam Andrew Conway
13 Andrew Smith Francis Saili Francis Saili
12 Denis Hurley Dan Goggin Rory Scannell
11 Simon Zebo Ronan O'Mahony Keith Earls
10 Ian Keatley Tyler Bleyendaal Tyler Bleyendaal
9 Duncan Williams Duncan Williams Conor Murray
1 Dave Kilcoyne Dave Kilcoyne Dave Kilcoyne
2 Eusebio Guinazu Rhys Marshall Niall Scannell
3 BJ Botha Stephen Archer John Ryan
4 Billy Holland Dave Foley Donnacha Ryan
5 Paul O'Connell Billy Holland Billy Holland
6 Donnacha Ryan Dave O'Callaghan Peter O'Mahony
7 Paddy Butler Tommy O'Donnell Tommy O'Donnell
8 CJ Stander Conor Oliver CJ Stander

2016-17 PRO12 Final buildup

Who will win? 51 votes

Comments