Terrorist Attack in Manchester (Read MOD WARNING in OP Updated 24/05/2017))

Samuel T. Cogley · 23-05-2017 05:31PM

pangbang wrote: »

The poor children who just had their brains splattered across their own country, you, the public, the real europeans, OWE them to f888cking well DO something, and QUICK!!!

There's one tiny flaw in your plan. It's bollocks.

martingriff · 23-05-2017 05:34PM

I really get involved with threads like this as they get so emotive (for a reason) but I decided to give my 2 cents on this. When I first heard the news my first thought was terrorist as with any "incident" these days but when I heard it was a concert and who's I thought no could be another reason. Not just one action here will stop these terrorist attacks it has to be a range of actions from checks on immigrants, deportations and the involvement (whenever they think its need or not) of the leading Islam clerical with not words but ACTIONS.

The problem these days it that these lone attacks are been done by individuals (or a small amount of people who take up the extremists idea and act. They are not part of groups like ISIS etc who do not even know who they are but will take the credit. Some of these people may be converts to have a reason to do what they are doing. With Twitter, Facebook, Youtube even the mainstream media going over in vivid details of these attacks and the attackers these groups can reach many people. Also the Irag war and the allies fabricated reasons for going in were a big factor. Are the bombings from America and Britian helping now yes but do people really thing if the British, American and all western countries left that attacks would stop? If you believe that you are very deluded.

Things are not going to get better anytime soon but I have hope (however deluded) it will.

DrWu · 23-05-2017 05:35PM

pangbang wrote: »

Skimmed this thread, saw a lot of the usual responses and a bunch of hand-wringers and whataboutists.

For those trying to bring the IRA into the conversation...that's whataboutism and as far as I'm concerned its in the past. And they don't draw equal in many regards with the detail anyway. I'm more concerned with what is happening NOW, the problem presented NOW.

Birmingham bomb, Nov 21, 1974: 21 murdered and 182 wounded by Provo IRA

Enniskillen bombing, Nov 8, 1987: 11 murdered, 63 injured.

Kingsmill massacre, Jan 5th, 1976: 10 murdered

to name just three

All coming from a fanatical ideology of hate and violence

If you're on here complaining about Manchester and you vote for SF you should expect to get called on it.

neverever1 · 23-05-2017 05:36PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Out of curiosity, how many Muslims do you know? I mean actually know, i'm not talking about getting in a cab once with a Muslim driver?

Yes, because that is how radicalisation works.

You ask any PIRA fanboy on here about Britain and you will get tails all about famines in India, internment camps in Kenya, opium wars and such. That is because the preachers of extremism use these things to radicalise people. Ask any rabid rascist about crime figures and they will give you all "Facts" about young black men being more likely to commit crime than young white men, or "Facts" about grooming by Muslim men.

Preachers of hatred use whatever figures they can, twist them and create that hatred, radical Muslim clerics will even start spouting about the crusades and anything else they can think of and of course, just as with the PIRA fanboys calling anyone who disagrees with them a "West Brit" of "Empire Apologist", anyone who disagrees with them is not really a Muslim.

I know about 10 Muslims, don't know what that has to do with anything?

Has Britain dropped bombs on the Middle East or has it not? Flattening countries and killing thousands upon thousands is what creates the radicalisation. There would be no reason for it otherwise.

Young lads don't grow up and kill a load of children because some book or some cleric told them to. Maybe it's easier for people to believe this and blame this rather than looking at the actual route cause.

Fratton Fred · 23-05-2017 05:36PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Doesn't explain why the people carrying these acts out are British citizens in the main.
Put the shotgun down and have a long think about why this has become a problem in Europe in recent years.

it is an integration problem. I lived among what was essentially three generations of Muslim immigrants, the first generation were pleased to be in England, delighted to have made a better life for themselves. The second generation, whilst happy with living in England were desperate to keep their Pakistani or Bangladeshi ties and were often "Encouraged" in to marrying someone of their parent's choosing. Often from Pakistan.

The third generation were left with a father who worked 14 hours a day and a mother who only spoke Urdu and quite often couldn't speak a word of English until they started school (which resulted in primary schools in Muslim areas having really low positions on the league tables, meaning people whose kids could spak English avoided them at all costs). These youngsters are in a kind of limbo, not feeling particularly English, but having never been anywhere else, not really feeling anything other than a Muslim.

Then some radical preacher comes along (often at a pretty early age) and starts telling them who they are and how there is only one god and his name is Allah. They start to feel like they have found an identity, someone who can tell them who they really are. If that preacher then starts to tell them that the west is decadent and that it hates them because they are Muslim, who are they to argue?

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

All the more reason to keep the majority of Muslims, the ordinary British Muslim in the street, on side.

This business of tarring them all with the same brush, wanting to deport all muslims, ban all muslim immigration, take away their rights etc is not only hysterical, it is counter productive.

absolutely. I'm not quite sure how the Met Police are supposed to intern their boss either

pangbang · 23-05-2017 05:36PM

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

There's one tiny flaw in your plan. It's bollocks.

Jesus, it'll take me weeks to absorb your counterpoint. Its so fleshed out with well-spun argument and common sense....I have to lie down.

You, if I try hard enough to squeeze a drop of insight from your "point", are an enabler. You, by trying to undermine common sense and self-preservation, enable this **** to continue happening. Your ideology, and i'm reaching here because of your lack of words, is poisonous.

Fratton Fred · 23-05-2017 05:37PM

neverever1 wrote: »

I know about 10 Muslims, don't know what that has to do with anything?

I ask, because when you write stuff like the following, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about

neverever1 wrote: »

Young lads don't grow up and kill a load of children because some book or some cleric told them to. Maybe it's easier for people to believe this and blame this rather than looking at the actual route cause.

pangbang · 23-05-2017 05:41PM

DrWu wrote: »

Birmingham bomb, Nov 21, 1974: 21 murdered and 182 wounded by Provo IRA

Enniskillen bombing, Nov 8, 1987: 11 murdered, 63 injured.

Kingsmill massacre, Jan 5th, 1976: 10 murdered

to name just three

All coming from a fanatical ideology of hate and violence

If you're on here complaining about Manchester and you vote for SF you should expect to get called on it.

So, as I said originally....so what? So what if that terrorist group from the past killed people? So what if a cult in Japan in the 90's released a chemical weapon on a subway?

So what?

Whats that got do do with immigration, in the millions, of people who are at complete odds with their "adopted" societies?

Whats the point of drawing reference to the IRA? What are you gonna do with that point? Where will it lead you? What conclusion will it help you form?

Or is it just whataboutism?

tomofson · 23-05-2017 05:42PM

DrWu wrote: »

Birmingham bomb, Nov 21, 1974: 21 murdered and 182 wounded by Provo IRA

Enniskillen bombing, Nov 8, 1987: 11 murdered, 63 injured.

Kingsmill massacre, Jan 5th, 1976: 10 murdered

to name just three

All coming from a fanatical ideology of hate and violence

If you're on here complaining about Manchester and you vote for SF you should expect to get called on it.

Death squads of loyal orangemen backed to the fullest by british intelligence killed way more than that.

Ulysses Gaze · 23-05-2017 05:42PM

Maybe we in the West need to hold our politicians to account and demand they stop fraternising, doing trade deals and selling weapons to those fcking degenerates in places like Saudi Arabia who are funding terror in Europe.

That would be a good start.

DrumSteve · 23-05-2017 05:43PM

tomofson wrote: »

Death squads of loyal orangemen backed to the fullest by british intelligence killed way more than that.

Didn't they bomb Dublin and Monaghan too?

jmayo · 23-05-2017 05:43PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

All the more reason to keep the majority of Muslims, the ordinary British Muslim in the street, on side.

But that isn't so easy anymore and if you are honest you will admit that.

Maybe you don't remember the protests in western countries about a cartoon.

Back in 2015 a delegation from a large muslim protest in London took a petition signed by more than 100,000 British Muslims to 10 Downing Street.
They called for ?global civility? and said that the production of cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad are ?an affront to the norms of civilised society?.

Basically they were demanding special treatment and that their religion is above others.
Hell a British tv channel was forced to pull a program looking at the history of islam because it wasn't liked by some of that faith.

Today it is ban anything that says anything bad about their religions founder, but what is it tomorrow ?

We have the advent of sharia patrols in European cities which routinely harass women and other people out enjoying themselves.
WTF.
Why should we as secular free thinking democratic states put up with it.
If those patrols are tolerated today, then they grow in strength and soon normal non believers stop going out or stop going to the areas they patrol.
Hence the no go areas.

In this country we have long lamented the influence of a religion in our education establishments, yet we were given a glimpse into the future when a prominent much touted muslim spokesperson listed his demands for education in the future, all to make devout muslims feel more at home.

Samuel T. Cogley · 23-05-2017 05:44PM

pangbang wrote: »

Jesus, it'll take me weeks to absorb your counterpoint. Its so fleshed out with well-spun argument and common sense....I have to lie down.

You, if I try hard enough to squeeze a drop of insight from your "point", are an enabler. You, by trying to undermine common sense and self-preservation, enable this **** to continue happening. Your ideology, and i'm reaching here because of your lack of words, is poisonous.

If your stupid, moronic rant had been worth more than a wholly British sarcastic counter point quoted from a popular sitcom it would have got it.

People who want to DO SOMETHING AND DO IT FAST are a massive part of the problem. It's distastefully glib, but it's very true in this situation, what's needed is for people to keep calm and carry on and pull together like the people of Manchester are doing today.

The Brits are no strangers to this and as much as I agree with you that the actions of Irish terrorists and the British Army should be consigned to the past, Britain will over come these cnuts as they've done with the Irish and the Germans before that; without losing their identity and resorting to nationalistic scare mongering ****e or without losing sight of the fact that the majority of Muslims, Irish or Germans weren't directly involved or bear any ill will.

neverever1 · 23-05-2017 05:48PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I ask, because when you write stuff like the following, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about

Well maybe the Muslims I know in Ireland are different because we haven't been dropping bombs on the Middle East for decades.

DrWu · 23-05-2017 05:52PM

pangbang wrote: »

So, as I said originally....so what? So what if that terrorist group from the past killed people? So what if a cult in Japan in the 90's released a chemical weapon on a subway?

So what?

Whats that got do do with immigration, in the millions, of people who are at complete odds with their "adopted" societies?

Whats the point of drawing reference to the IRA? What are you gonna do with that point? Where will it lead you? What conclusion will it help you form?

Or is it just whataboutism?

1. Sinn Fein are far from in the past. they are very much a part of our present.

2. The recent love-in at the Felons Club in Belfast shows that SF and IRA remain one and the same.

3. SF/IRA carried out atrocities that were the very same as what just happened in Manchester.

4. They could very well be a part of the government in this country after the next election.

If you vote/support/defend SF then you've got some neck complaining about Manchester.

wonderfullife · 23-05-2017 05:53PM

jmayo wrote: »

Congratulations for downplaying islamist terrorism threat below that of peanut allergies.

How many kids died from peanuts at last nights gig ?

0.

22 died from terrorism.

Taken over 15 years, more peanuts kill people in the UK than terrorists.

That's just a fact and facts don't care about your feelings or prejudices against the scary brown people who like the nonsense religion.

I've no problem saying Radical Islamic Terrorism poses a threat and the Security Services in the UK are correct to remain vigilant at all times.

I do have a problem with hyperbolic nonsense equating the threat of Radical Islamic Terrorism to the bloody plague. That's what some are doing on this thread calling for internment and deportations of all Muslims lmao.

Crazy to live in a world where 6,222 people commit suicide in the UK in 2013 and 3 people die from Islamic Terrorists and people think the biggest problem facing the UK are immigrant Muslims.

Nonsense.

pangbang · 23-05-2017 05:54PM

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

If your stupid, moronic rant had been worth more than a wholly British sarcastic counter point quoted from a popular sitcom it would have got it.

People who want to DO SOMETHING AND DO IT FAST are a massive part of the problem. It's distastefully glib, but it's very true in this situation, what's needed is for people to keep calm and carry on and pull together like the people of Manchester are doing today.

The Brits are no strangers to this and as much as I agree with you that the actions of Irish terrorists and the British Army should be consigned to the past, Britain will over come these cnuts as they've done with the Irish and the Germans before that; without losing their identity and resorting to nationalistic scare mongering ****e or without losing sight of the fact that the majority of Muslims, Irish or Germans weren't directly involved or bear any ill will.

Instead of talking out of your hole, how about you point out WHY its stupid or moronic. Should be easy, if its that "moronic", right? Or maybe you don't have the time, cant be bothered, wont lower yourself......you know, excuses to actually avoid the BLATANT obvious.

Second bolded part. So youre advocating that people essentially do nothing, just like I pointed out in my original point. Sing kumbayah together and wait for the next one. And the next one, and next one and next one. Again, your attitude is that of an enabler.

Third bolded part. HOW!? What is anyone doing, anywhere that is stopping this? The reason its not stopping, rather increasing, is because nobody has the goddamn guts to see the root of the problem and do something about it.

Not yet!

RandomName2 · 23-05-2017 05:54PM

neverever1 wrote: »

Has Britain dropped bombs on the Middle East or has it not? Flattening countries and killing thousands upon thousands is what creates the radicalisation. There would be no reason for it otherwise.

Young lads don't grow up and kill a load of children because some book or some cleric told them to. Maybe it's easier for people to believe this and blame this rather than looking at the actual route cause.

I wasn't going to comment on this thread because I don't think there's anything good to be said about this atrocity, but this sentiment really gets on my wick.

I mean really gets on my wick.

Where did France or Belgium or Germany bomb in the Middle East prior to being attacked? This endless whataboutery is very annoying... it's patently false.

That's not to say that Britain's interference in the middle east has been right, or anything else for that matter, but I'm simply saying that the sentiment that that's the reason for an attack like this is complete bullsh*t.

PressRun · 23-05-2017 05:54PM

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Maybe we in the West need to hold our politicians to account and demand they stop fraternising, doing trade deals and selling weapons to those fcking degenerates in places like Saudi Arabia who are funding terror in Europe.

That would be a good start.

Don't want to get too embroiled in political debates, but this sums up the bigger picture. People are running around trying to round up Muslims and this and that, but ultimately western governments are putting their own citizens at risk every time they cosy up to financiers and exporters of terrorism. Last month, Teresa May was kissing the ring over in Saudi Arabia. A couple of days ago, Donald Trump is signing a multi-billion dollar weapons deal with them. These being the same people who aided and abetted the 9/11 attacks and promoted the strain of Islam from which ISIS founded its rhetoric. It's easy to point the finger at the common man, but it gets a lot more depressing when you realise you're railing against politicians who are more interested in capitalism than they are in the greater good.

end of the road · 23-05-2017 05:55PM

SnakePlissken wrote: »

Just not toward homosexuals correct?

oh because catholicism does respect homosexuality, right?
seriously, what are you achieving by spouting this old guff?

Help!!!! wrote: »

No, it is Islam all these mad men are killing in the name of Allah. Until the Muslims realise that the Quran is just a book & not the word of God we will have to see many more people dead. Until the Imam's/scholars come out & denounce these terrorist attacks they will keep happening. & its a lot more than just a few mad men as well

no, it is islamic extremists. all religions think their book is the word of their god. plenty of Imam's and scholars have come out & denounced these terrorist attacks but that doesn't fit some people's agenda.

Irish Praetorian · 23-05-2017 05:59PM

neverever1 wrote: »

I know about 10 Muslims, don't know what that has to do with anything?

Has Britain dropped bombs on the Middle East or has it not? Flattening countries and killing thousands upon thousands is what creates the radicalisation. There would be no reason for it otherwise.

Young lads don't grow up and kill a load of children because some book or some cleric told them to. Maybe it's easier for people to believe this and blame this rather than looking at the actual route cause.

Yeah I've got to call nonsense on this, Britain has indeed taken part in the wars of the Middle East, but it's seldom been hit back by the actual victims of those campaigns in terrorist attacks, its been hit back by its own citizens who share a faith and set of beliefs who then decide they need to wage a holy war. Now you can make the argument that the best course of action is not to wage such conflicts - which is fine if you believe foreign policy should be directed by religious fanatics rather than elected officials, and if your view of international diplomacy is co-terminus with that of Islamist fundamentals; I personally don't think East Timor should get the shaft because a bunch of nutjobs consider it unredeemed Islamic territory.

But the more fundamental point is, it's not going to be enough, because before long those neighbourhoods and towns that host Europe's Muslim population themselves become the same kind of unredeemed territory, hosting the same sort of views, demanding their own peculiar accommodations (see the use of Sharia aspects of UK law) and coming into conflict with wider society because of that (think FGM and anti-gay sentiment). If you think that is not another flashpoint just down the road, that such differences can just be papered over with vapid sentiments of 'stop the war', then I fear you may be in for a nasty surprise.

Help!!!! · 23-05-2017 05:59PM

neverever1 wrote: »

Well maybe the Muslims I know in Ireland are different because we haven't been dropping bombs on the Middle East for decades.

No the Muslims in Ireland are different because they havent taken over towns & cities like they have in the UK. Go walk around Southall,Bradford,Rochdale etc you will not be welcome in areas because your white. Have you heard about the Rochdale grooming gang?

jackofalltrades · 23-05-2017 06:00PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

No it's the extremists and we've all known this since the first plane hit on September the 11th.

You mean Islamist extremists.
How can you say that Islam has nothing to do with Islamist extremism?

Stop burying your head in the sand - tarnishing Muslims as a whole for the acts of a few mad men is cruel and unfair.

Do you want to point out where I have tarnished Muslims as a whole?

jacksie66 wrote: »

Saw that. It's insane. But you see the normal everyday Muslims condemning and attacking these hate preachers who are spreading bile and hatred on the streets.
The normal everyday Muslim is as opposed to these scumbags as anyone else.

Really.
Here's a result from a poll of Muslim attitudes done by BBC Radio 4 Today.

Half (49%) believe Muslim clerics preaching that violence against the west can be justified are out of touch with mainstream Muslim opinion, while 45% disagree.

When you have figures that high you can't make claims for what the "normal everyday Muslims" think.
The minority isn't as tiny as people make out and definitely isn't small enough to prevent more of these attacks.

Persephone kindness · 23-05-2017 06:01PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

Have you heard about the Rochdale grooming gang?

Hairdressers?

Samuel T. Cogley · 23-05-2017 06:02PM

pangbang wrote: »

Instead of talking out of your hole, how about you point out WHY its stupid or moronic. Should be easy, if its that "moronic", right? Or maybe you don't have the time, cant be bothered, wont lower yourself......you know, excuses to actually avoid the BLATANT obvious.

Second bolded part. So youre advocating that people essentially do nothing, just like I pointed out in my original point. Sing kumbayah together and wait for the next one. And the next one, and next one and next one. Again, your attitude is that of an enabler.

Third bolded part. HOW!? What is anyone doing, anywhere that is stopping this? The reason its not stopping, rather increasing, is because nobody has the goddamn guts to see the root of the problem and do something about it.

Not yet!

No it's extremely difficult to argue with morons, to paraphrase the cliche, you win with experience.

You have no idea what you're talking about and there are no quick fix solutions. This guy was born and bred in Manchester and has been there since 1994. Now unless your solution involves a fcuking time machine, you're the one talking out of your hole.

AudreyHepburn · 23-05-2017 06:02PM

jackofalltrades wrote: »

You mean Islamist extremists.
How can you say that Islam has nothing to do with Islamist extremism?

Do you want to point out where I have tarnished Muslims as a whole?
Really.
.

I didn't say that, please don't put words in my mouth.

Of course it's Islamic extremists that are the problem but you are trying to make out like the religion and it's followers as a whole are dangerous and I was merely pointing out that that's just not true.

neverever1 · 23-05-2017 06:03PM

RandomName2 wrote: »

I wasn't going to comment on this thread because I don't think there's anything good to be said about this atrocity, but this sentiment really gets on my wick.

I mean really gets on my wick.

Where did France or Belgium or Germany bomb in the Middle East prior to being attacked? This endless whataboutery is very annoying... it's patently false.

That's not to say that Britain's interference in the middle east has been right, or anything else for that matter, but I'm simply saying that the sentiment that that's the reason for an attack like this is complete bullsh*t.

No one's justifying this attack. People may think the attack only happened because of a book, they may be right but many of us see the root cause being the bombing campaign in the Middle East.

Beyondgone · 23-05-2017 06:04PM

Pleurf.

This became a Politi-sh1t-fest rapidly anyway.

Came home to read how the injured etc were doing and some facts...walked into a waffle-fest of "yeah but oh buttery" instead.

Mr.Micro · 23-05-2017 06:04PM

The majority of decent Muslim people have been around for centuries and ISIS here 5 minutes. People need to get perspective on this.

Help!!!! · 23-05-2017 06:04PM

end of the road wrote: »

oh because catholicism does respect homosexuality, right?
seriously, what are you achieving by spouting this old guff?

no, it is islamic extremists. all religions think their book is the word of their god. plenty of Imam's and scholars have come out & denounced these terrorist attacks but that doesn't fit some people's agenda.

No other religions Holy book tells them to kill the unbelievers. Christianity has moved forward with time & the majority of people understand its a book of stories. Sikhs will live among the local residents & will integrate.

Terrorist Attack in Manchester (Read MOD WARNING in OP Updated 24/05/2017))

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