Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

Whilst the Vunipola absence is a massive blow and a complete game changer, I suppose the silver lining is that it makes a spot for Stander extremely likely now. I don't think he'll move to 8, Faletau has too much form and history to see Stander as the favourite for that role but I do now see him as being the very likely option at blindside.

Faletau coming in to the side would be a downgrade in terms of carrying in the tight which plays into Stander's hands as he's probably the next best man in the squad at the hard yards in close quarters to get the team on the front foot. What played against Stander had been the fact that he's a limited line out option and, with Vunipola being pretty anonymous in that area, I thought it unlikely to see two back row players who won't provide strong options in the line out start. When you consider Warburton is solid and nothing more in this area, it really would have hindered the options.

But Faletau is a much more comfortable jumper in the line out than Vunipola and is used there a good bit for Wales. That gives the Lions a decent option jumping in the back row whilst still requiring someone who can really stick it up the jumper and get over the gain line.

With that said, Stander needs a rest. He does not look fit and hasn't done since the Toulouse match. The ankle is heavily strapped and his carrying is a shadow of what it was. I would think there's also an element of him being a marked man now and teams shutting him down early.

I'd say the only guy who can take the 6 jersey from him is Itoje and that would be tactical. SOB will get a run at 6 but I just don't see him getting some form and fitness together after such a long absence. In fact, I'd still be dubious as to whether he'll definitely tour.

Former Former wrote: »

I'd play Stander over Faletau every day of the week. I've never been particularly convinced by Faletau.

One combination definitely worth thinking about is Warburton at 6, Tipuric at 7.

It would be close but Faletau has been on fire of late. I was very dubious of his form/fitness a few months ago but he has been excellent. Going on form and history, I think Gatland is already thinking of Faletau as his test 8. As I said above, Stander is not fit at the moment and he has another big game next week with next to no rest before going to NZ. I would not be surprised if he needs a tidy up procedure on his ankle after the tour.

Fair point on Tipuric; he is something of a forgotten man in the whole discussion. He has definitely improved his ruck work and become a stronger player there. In terms of his selection, I'm not sure Gatland has ever really seen him as a crucial player though and he has never nailed down a spot for Wales. He's on his longest run of starts in his test career at the moment and that's all with Gatland gone.

He's a very underrated line out jumper too. I'll be very interested in seeing how they use him.

The likely situation is that almost all of the back row players on tour pick up a test cap at some point just as they did in 2013.

Former Former wrote: »

I'd play Stander over Faletau every day of the week. I've never been particularly convinced by Faletau.

One combination definitely worth thinking about is Warburton at 6, Tipuric at 7.

Id say you are very much in the minority (especially outside of Ireland), Faletau is an incredible 8 who keeps the same level of intensity at every game. Ok he doesnt have the obvious carrying ability as he is invariably involved in doing dirty work in rucks. Though saying that give him a little space and he has great feet and hands.
I would be the opposite in that I am not that convinced by Stander, his past few weeks have been average at best.

When O'Brien was pulled from the semi final I thought his Lions hopes were hanging by a thread and he'd need to play in the final, which obviously never happened.
I'd say Vunipola's injury opens the door for him again. He may get a good few minutes in the opening games in the hopes that he will prove his fitness. If he manages that he may find himself on the bench. He covers 6,7, and 8 to international standard and is the only truly dynamic carrier at Vunipola's level in my opinion.

Dog Botherer wrote: »

Maybe could someone enlighten me as to what exactly he does well? Sincere question, I've wondered for a long time.

Only saw this. If I had to compare Haskell to someone in Ireland, I'd use Rhys Ruddock as the similar style player. He has the flexibility to play across the back row and has started at test level in all three positions. But he's a higher quality, more polished version of Ruddock.

He has a phenomenal engine. Most agree that he was anonymous in the Wasps vs Leinster game. You look at the stats though and he made 23 tackles, more than twice the amount of either of his back row colleagues.

He also has serious power in the tight. He's a bigger guy than Ruddock and probably even more powerful when it comes to rucking and mauling. And, whilst his game has changed to a more tight focussed game as he has gotten older, he still has the handling to be able to mix it in open play.

He's probably become a similar style to one of the great Wasps and England stalwarts, Joe Worsley who was criminally underrated. One of those guys who you don't really appreciate until he's not on the field and you wonder why your back row are suddenly being thrown around the place and the ball is slow.

Webbs wrote: »

Id say you are very much in the minority (especially outside of Ireland), Faletau is an incredible 8 who keeps the same level of intensity at every game. Ok he doesnt have the obvious carrying ability as he is invariably involved in doing dirty work in rucks. Though saying that give him a little space and he has great feet and hands.
I would be the opposite in that I am not that convinced by Stander, his past few weeks have been average at best.

I'd say the fact he was injured might have something to do with that. He's had a very good season. Nominated for European player of the year, shortlisted for 6 Nations player of the Championship, beaten the All Blacks and played an integral part in a rejuvenated Munster side who have a league final Saturday. He offers something completely different to Faletau who's closer to Heaslip in terms of style. However, to say he's a bosh merchant is wide of the mark. For instance he made 19 tackles in the game against Ospreys. Joint second highest. There's an element of snobbery creeping into the game in regards to ball carriers. People seem to write them off as one trick pony's. Even Vunipola has been accused of this. Frankly it's nonsensical as every side needs good go forward ball.

stephen_n wrote: »

He was limping on Friday night walking around. There has to be some underlying issue with the calf as it's "tightened" multiple times now in the last 2 months.

A strained calf is a bugger of an injury to come back from though. You generally feel "grand" walking around, you can even jog and maybe even run. It's only when you really push it that it will feel sore again. As such you can have multiple false dawns where you think you're ready but you can still feel it, then one day you don't feel it, it's just better.

I'd say he could probably have played, but it was not deemed worthy of risking it, if he can train fully with the Lions and be eased in with the first few matches, he will hopefully be fine come the tests.

Buer wrote: »

A lot of guys are accused of this but, in many of those cases, it's generally accurate when it is first suggested. Vunipola was a one trick pony when he first came on the scene. The best thing that ever happened to him was going to Saracens. The culture there has transformed him from an overweight ball carrier who could be eliminated from the game to one of the best performers in world rugby over the past 18 months.

Stander was similar when he first arrived. He had nowhere near the legs required for the mucky pitches up here and, outside of his ball carrying, wasn't close to the player he has become. Penney sparsely used him in his first season and, when it came to adding guys to his HEC squad, chose not to select Stander.

In both cases, their fitness has developed exponentially in the last 2 years which has allowed them to become far greater than mere ball carriers. Stander always had ability at the breakdown but often didn't have the legs to be in those positions. Now he is able to play a high tempo for 80 minutes and his tackle counts have increased steadily with that.

I suppose Heaslip was a similar case 12 years ago. After a couple of years, his game rounded out completely to allow him become a real presence at the breakdown and in defence.

The issue is that a lot of the critics hang their hat on those initial assessments and will continue to level those accusations at the players. Guys change their game, get better, develop additional skills etc. Alas new opinions don't appear to develop as rapidly.

Truer words were never spoken. Massive issue surrounding fans and pundits opinions.

Billy Beautiful Guillotine wrote: »

Not even sure you're being fair here, he was 18 and 19 in those initial games for Wasps when he came on the scene. Naturally he's better now than he was then.

He was 20 and first choice for Wasps. He's going to get better with time as he gains exposure and experience but he has admitted himself that he was completely out of shape and ate all around him. 2 years ago he spent a summer dropping weight and getting himself up to a decent fitness level and that has been a huge factor for him.

It was widely reported that both he and his brother were told to drop significant weight and improve their fitness. That has been the biggest factor in his improvement.

Buer wrote: »

The recent absence has been down to a tight hamstring. Last week was the first I heard of the calf.

I think after the Wasps game was the only mention of hamstring, this isn't the first time they've said a tight calf afaik. Going back as far as January he has been having problems with a "tight calf".

The beast Stander now at 8 imo.We cannot afford anymore losses very poor squad numbers would love the Grey brothers on tour.The complete misunderstanding of what we face with posters saying Zebo should travel is beyond my comprehension of understanding the task in front of us.