Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

MJohnston · 19-05-2017 12:44pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

It'll be quicker for Maynooth-Sandyford commuters to stay on the train till Tara St and just walk across to Trinity. Broombridge interchange will only really be useful for people headed to the north city.

Maybe, although I remember the Connolly bottleneck having a substantial impact on Maynooth line trains, and then not all of them go to Pearse/GCD either.

markpb · 19-05-2017 12:48pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

It'll be quicker for Maynooth-Sandyford commuters to stay on the train till Tara St and just walk across to Trinity. Broombridge interchange will only really be useful for people headed to the north city.

It's 12-14 minutes by train from Broombridge to Tara, another 8-10 minutes to St Stephens Green and a minute or two to exit Tara St when it's busy. The luas is likely to take about 20 minutes to do the same so there's no time difference between them.

Plus people do like to avoid walking in the rain and also like getting on a tram at the start when it's quiet and they'll get a seat.

Chivito550 · 19-05-2017 5:17pm

spacetweek wrote: »

Why on earth would you use the Navan Road when you had a former railway line available.

Just out of interest, we don't happen to have any other unused former railway lines lying around by any chance, that we could throw a future LUAS into?

AngryLips · 19-05-2017 5:39pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

Just out of interest, we don't happen to have any other unused former railway lines lying around by any chance, that we could throw a future LUAS into?

There's one in Cork City I believe

D14Rugby · 19-05-2017 6:09pm

MayoSalmon wrote: »

An actual station and not just 2 platforms would be a start?!

In fairness as far a luas are concerned you're only ever at a stop 5-10 minutes max so a full station isn't really needed just a shelter and ticket machines

Peregrine · 19-05-2017 6:09pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

Just out of interest, we don't happen to have any other unused former railway lines lying around by any chance, that we could throw a future LUAS into?

Nothing usable in Dublin AFAIR. There was the Harcourt line between Brides Glen and Bray but it's been mostly built over.

AngryLips wrote: »

There's one in Cork City I believe

The Passage West line? It was build on from Albert Road to PUC. It's a greenway from PUC to Passage West with a bit missing at Rochestown. It might be possible to put a Luas line there if the south docks gets redeveloped.

loyatemu · 20-05-2017 12:56am

Peregrine wrote: »

Nothing usable in Dublin AFAIR. There was the Harcourt line between Brides Glen and Bray but it's been mostly built over.

"mostly" isn't correct - there's an office building on the line at Cherrywood and a couple of houses near where it joined the Wexford line, otherwise I think it's clear. The proposed Bray Luas takes a different route though to serve a wider catchment area.

Stephen15 · 20-05-2017 1:07am

loyatemu wrote: »

"mostly" isn't correct - there's an office building on the line at Cherrywood and a couple of houses near where it joined the Wexford line, otherwise I think it's clear. The proposed Bray Luas takes a different route though to serve a wider catchment area.

I wouldnt put it top of thee agenda. Bray has the Dart and the high frequency 145 it dosent really need the Luas money better spent elsewhere.

marno21 · 20-05-2017 1:14am

Stephen15 wrote: »

I wouldnt put it top of thee agenda. Bray has the Dart and the high frequency 145 it dosent really need the Luas money better spent elsewhere.

I presume the idea behind the extension to Bray is to serve areas parallel to the DART that would require a CC interchange and back out the Luas for a journey e.g. Sandyford, Carrickmines, Cherrywood etc.

The traffic numbers on the N11 need sorting and if it can be shown a Luas will do so then I'm all for it. I wouldn't say it's priority all the same.

Peregrine · 20-05-2017 1:30am

loyatemu wrote: »

"mostly" isn't correct - there's an office building on the line at Cherrywood and a couple of houses near where it joined the Wexford line, otherwise I think it's clear. The proposed Bray Luas takes a different route though to serve a wider catchment area.

Are there not pylons on it from Cherrywood to the M11? And from the M11 to the Bray junction, there's a dozen buildings in Shankill that would have to be demolished if it were to be used.

Complete non-runner. A different route is the only option.

marno21 · 20-05-2017 1:37am

Peregrine wrote: »

Are there not pylons on it from Cherrywood to the M11? And from the M11 to the Bray junction, there's a dozen buildings in Shankill that would have to be demolished if it were to be used.

Complete non-runner. A different route is the only option.

Pylons are easily moved in fairness. Houses are another story but 1/2 would be fairly acceptable. Weren't 1/2 of the old Harcourt line stations that became lived in cleared out for the Green Line?

strassenwo!f · 20-05-2017 5:37am

I'm not aware that there has been a proper examination of the possibility of a DART link along the river valley around Shankill between Killiney and Cherrywood.

To my mind, this would provide a much better opportunity for a park-and-ride arrangement for North Wicklow (and South Dublin residents in that area) to access the DART and LUAS. It's right beside the M50 and M11, and there's lots of space.

Much better than trying to force all these people through the narrow streets of Bray to get access to the DART, or the LUAS, if it happens.

LXFlyer · 20-05-2017 9:08am

marno21 wrote: »

I presume the idea behind the extension to Bray is to serve areas parallel to the DART that would require a CC interchange and back out the Luas for a journey e.g. Sandyford, Carrickmines, Cherrywood etc.

The traffic numbers on the N11 need sorting and if it can be shown a Luas will do so then I'm all for it. I wouldn't say it's priority all the same.

There is virtually nowhere that would require going to the city centre and back out on the LUAS again.

There are already buses linking the DART line area with those areas you mention above.

dixiefly · 20-05-2017 11:00am

lxflyer wrote: »

The frequency may militate against that.

People are happy to transfer between modes when both services are high frequency, but when one isn't then it can be a disincentive.

The Maynooth line is hourly off-peak, while only half the trams will go to Broombridge, so it's a lot more difficult to predict when the trams will get to Broombridge, and a long wait for the next train!

At least if you miss a train at Heuston or Connolly, there are facilities and buses aren't too far away. That's not the case at Broombridge.

Are all the luas trams not going to Broombridge when it opens? I read it to be end of line and assumed that ALL trams would stop at Broombridge.

LXFlyer · 20-05-2017 11:09am

dixiefly wrote: »

Are all the luas trams not going to Broombridge when it opens? I read it to be end of line and assumed that ALL trams would stop at Broombridge.

No - only half of them.

The other half will turn at the top of O'Connell Street at Parnell stop and return southwards.

dixiefly · 20-05-2017 11:11am

What are the chances of a park and ride being built at Broombridge? From what I know there is a fair bit of available ground around there. Surely the cost would be negligible in comparison to the overall cost of the Luas.

dixiefly · 20-05-2017 11:13am

lxflyer wrote: »

No - only half of them.

The other half will turn at the top of O'Connell Street at Parnell stop and return southwards.

Thanks. Probably understandable but a bit of a bummer for anyone trying to commute at a an efficient time.

Has there been any indication as to how frequent the trams will be leaving Broombridge?

dixiefly · 20-05-2017 11:25am

markpb wrote: »

It's 12-14 minutes by train from Broombridge to Tara, another 8-10 minutes to St Stephens Green and a minute or two to exit Tara St when it's busy. The luas is likely to take about 20 minutes to do the same so there's no time difference between them.

Plus people do like to avoid walking in the rain and also like getting on a tram at the start when it's quiet and they'll get a seat.

I think you are probably right about the seat option. The times I have taken the train from M3 parkway and changed at Clonsilla for Tara St I often didnt get a seat on the Maynooth train. At least, by getting off at Broombridge and taking the Luas you are almost guaranteed a seat on the Luas.

LXFlyer · 20-05-2017 11:52am

dixiefly wrote: »

What are the chances of a park and ride being built at Broombridge? From what I know there is a fair bit of available ground around there. Surely the cost would be negligible in comparison to the overall cost of the Luas.

The depot is taking up most of the space on the railway side - don't think there is room left for a P & R facility.

LXFlyer · 20-05-2017 11:53am

dixiefly wrote: »

Thanks. Probably understandable but a bit of a bummer for anyone trying to commute at a an efficient time.

Has there been any indication as to how frequent the trams will be leaving Broombridge?

Well if it's 20 trams an hour at peak times through the city, then that's 10 an hour to/from Broombridge, meaning one every 6 minutes.

That will clearly drop during the off-peak.

LXFlyer · 20-05-2017 12:18pm

markpb wrote: »

It's 12-14 minutes by train from Broombridge to Tara, another 8-10 minutes to St Stephens Green and a minute or two to exit Tara St when it's busy. The luas is likely to take about 20 minutes to do the same so there's no time difference between them.

Plus people do like to avoid walking in the rain and also like getting on a tram at the start when it's quiet and they'll get a seat.

Are there really that many people making the commute from D15 (or beyond) to Sandyford by public transport though?

Most would surely drive? It would still be a punishing commute by public transport, LUAS or no LUAS.

Stephen15 · 20-05-2017 12:29pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Are there really that many people making the commute from D15 (or beyond) to Sandyford by public transport though?

Most would surely drive? It would still be a punishing commute by public transport, LUAS or no LUAS.

I doubt theres huge numbers but there probably would be some I'd say there might be some that work in other areas on the green line such as Ranelagh, Harcourt Street, Dundrum and even Cherrywood.

LXFlyer · 20-05-2017 1:00pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

I doubt theres huge numbers but there probably would be some I'd say there might be some that work in other areas on the green line such as Ranelagh, Harcourt Street, Dundrum and even Cherrywood.

Anyone working in the city centre up to Harcourt Street would presumably get the train to one of the three city centre stations and walk.

By transferring to LUAS they're incurring additional costs up to EUR8 per week if using LEAP pay-as-you-go (capping doesn't even come into play!).

I have to say I still think the main market for transfers will be people going to the Phibsboro, Grangegorman and north city centre areas.

markpb · 20-05-2017 1:14pm

dixiefly wrote: »

What are the chances of a park and ride being built at Broombridge? From what I know there is a fair bit of available ground around there. Surely the cost would be negligible in comparison to the overall cost of the Luas.

I'm not sure if there's a benefit in putting a P&R station so close to the city centre, it would just create local traffic congestion. If there was space there, it would be better utilised as mid to high density residential or office blocks.

markpb · 20-05-2017 1:20pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Anyone working in the city centre up to Harcourt Street would presumably get the train to one of the three city centre stations and walk.

I think you're probably right about the majority of people are heading to the north city centre but I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers transferring to luas doesn't grow over time. Anyone coming from West Dublin and working on Harcourt/Hatch would have a 15-20 minute walk each way from Pearse. That's more than enough for people to discount public transport entirely. Now they'll have the option of a relatively seamless transfer to luas and no walking at all.

20-05-2017 1:24pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Anyone working in the city centre up to Harcourt Street would presumably get the train to one of the three city centre stations and walk.

Its this thinking that gave us two separate lines in the first place. 'Shur its only a 20-25 minute walk from Connelly to Stephens Green. Grand bit of a stroll before work' :rolleyes:

Forgetting that it rains 6 months of the year, and if you have to wear a suit for work, you may not want to arrive in work sweaty.

LXFlyer · 20-05-2017 1:24pm

markpb wrote: »

I think you're probably right about the majority of people are heading to the north city centre but I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers transferring to luas doesn't grow over time. Anyone coming from West Dublin and working on Harcourt/Hatch would have a 15-20 minute walk each way from Pearse. That's more than enough for people to discount public transport entirely. Now they'll have the option of a relatively seamless transfer to luas and no walking at all.

I think that the comment about people viewing the walk as too much is OTT.

One look at the numbers walking along SSG East and Merrion Square West during rush hour will tell you that plenty of people do it every day.

Is it worth paying EUR8 per week extra to use the LUAS? I wouldn't be so sure. Plenty of people (myself included) actually enjoy a short walk before/after work.

LXFlyer · 20-05-2017 1:30pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Its this thinking that gave us two separate lines in the first place. 'Shur its only a 20-25 minute walk from Connelly to Stephens Green. Grand bit of a stroll before work' :rolleyes:

Forgetting that it rains 6 months of the year, and if you have to wear a suit for work, you may not want to arrive in work sweaty.

I'm not talking about walking from Connolly, but the walk from Pearse to that area is perfectly doable.

I actually have always had a 10-15 minute walk as part of my commute and I wear a suit - it's certainly not the cataclysmic event some people seem to think.

I'm merely saying that I still believe that people are overstating in their minds the number of people that will transfer at Broombridge - not least because of the additional fare penalty.

I'm certainly not downplaying the extension - but I think that the frequency and fare penalty will militate against huge numbers of transfers at Broombridge.

PhoenixParker · 20-05-2017 1:33pm

markpb wrote: »

I think you're probably right about the majority of people are heading to the north city centre but I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers transferring to luas doesn't grow over time. Anyone coming from West Dublin and working on Harcourt/Hatch would have a 15-20 minute walk each way from Pearse. That's more than enough for people to discount public transport entirely. Now they'll have the option of a relatively seamless transfer to luas and no walking at all.

Also don't discount those working west of the Luas line.
Places like clanbrassil st, Thomas st, Portobello, anywhere west of capel street.

Connolly, Pearse and Tara are inconvenient for huge chunks of the city centre. The Luas line goes much closer to the city centre proper. On a drizzly day I could see many people switching to the Luas to get themselves ten minutes closer to work.

Another aspect is that many people prefer a walk at only one end. Someone who lives twenty minute from the station and then needs to walk twenty minutes from the office will typically consider that unfeasible whereas twenty minute on one end and five on the other is fine.

LXFlyer · 20-05-2017 1:57pm

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Also don't discount those working west of the Luas line.
Places like clanbrassil st, Thomas st, Portobello, anywhere west of capel street.

Connolly, Pearse and Tara are inconvenient for huge chunks of the city centre. The Luas line goes much closer to the city centre proper. On a drizzly day I could see many people switching to the Luas to get themselves ten minutes closer to work.

Another aspect is that many people prefer a walk at only one end. Someone who lives twenty minute from the station and then needs to walk twenty minutes from the office will typically consider that unfeasible whereas twenty minute on one end and five on the other is fine.

Fair point regarding the walk at either end.

But, again playing devil's advocate, would people from neighbourhoods along the Maynooth line going to work west of Capel Street, or to the Clanbrassil St or Thomas St areas be using the train in the first place?

I doubt it to be honest, as the buses along the Lucan and Blanchardstown QBCs bring them much closer, and will still do even with the LUAS extension.

As I said - the real winners are anyone working in the Phibsboro, going to DIT Grangegorman and those working in the Parnell Street areas.

Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

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