Dairy chit chat II

Dwag · 18-05-2017 07:38PM

Mooooo wrote: »

When was it cut?

Ryegrass first week of march and the rest end march start April.

Keepgrowing · 18-05-2017 08:36PM

thisyear wrote: »

I used to do Nutrition in a previous life(no more so dont ask!!)

But this stuff really annoys me as lads loose so much times and money over this. Experience has shown me that the Ingredients dont really matter unless you are feeding huge levels and have massive energy issues in the diet. If you are getting a significant response to feed then look at your grassland management. As a % of diet it is way bigger % than any concentrates and needs to be right.

Buy your ration based on the cheapest price especially on grass. Ingredients dont really matter once they are balanced for energy (UFL) and protein. Ask the rep what is the UFL content and aim for 0.95UFL+ (1kg of air dried barely =1UFL). In simple terms the diet target for protein is 16% and grass has loads of it so go for low protein rations 12%-14%, balanced for minerals and drive on.

Byproducts tend to be cheapest(bar maybe barley) and are fine on grass. Dont be wasting money on rapeseed or soya unless it comes out cheapest on an LCR(least cost ration formulation). They are also fermentable energy sources so are much easier on the rumen and will lead to less sub clincial acidosis and lameness.

If you mix yourself byproducts all the way! Gluten and Distillers are good feeds and hulls are just fine once its balanced.

See the presentation below by UCD. They have been doing trials on this for years and are more into higher input systems if thats your fancy.

http://www.asaireland.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/3.-Tommy-Boland.pdf

sorry lads rant over and if you dont want to heed me no worries either, each man to his own!!!

Refreshing post

thisyear · 18-05-2017 11:41PM

Dwag wrote: »

thisyear wrote: »

I used to do Nutrition in a previous life(no more so dont ask!!)

Byproducts tend to be cheapest(bar maybe barley) and are fine on grass. Dont be wasting money on rapeseed or soya unless it comes out cheapest on an LCR(least cost ration formulation). They are also fermentable energy sources so are much easier on the rumen and will lead to less sub clincial acidosis and lameness.

If you mix yourself byproducts all the way! Gluten and Distillers are good feeds and hulls are just fine once its balanced.

Agree on balancing feed.

What protein source would you recommend to replace soya or rapeseed?
What do you think is the best source of energy?
When grass quality is very variable what's the best mix to maintain bcs and solids?
Likewise what would you recommend when grass is very rich and low in fibre?

Sorry for all the questions.

Protein from corn distillers and gluten is fine. But Cow can't store protein in body, excess must be excreted. It has to be converted from protein into urine which is a chemical process which takes energy. So by feeding excess you are actually costing yourself energy, since there is plenty in the grass, try not out more in!

Losing bcs can be couple factors. Would need understand herd. Variable grass quality, keep low protein hull or pulp based nut in bin as you can inc/dec without upsetting rumen. It's the wrong question though, right one is how do I make sure I have good grass all the time!

Forget the variable fibre stuff, cow is a fermenter, she'll deal with it. Those thoughts are really only for seriously high input non grass based systems.

Best source of energy is grass at about 1200kg dm, no other feed can beat it on a ufl basis. Next is ground maize but it's very hard on cow. You need to think about when your feeding. Indoors on silage then you'd be thinking of some starch sources but not now.

Hope this is of some value. Plenty of nutritionist try a complicate the thing but it's mostly bull in an Irish context tbh.

jaymla627 · 19-05-2017 08:38AM

thisyear wrote: »

Protein from corn distillers and gluten is fine. But Cow can't store protein in body, excess must be excreted. It has to be converted from protein into urine which is a chemical process which takes energy. So by feeding excess you are actually costing yourself energy, since there is plenty in the grass, try not out more in!

Losing bcs can be couple factors. Would need understand herd. Variable grass quality, keep low protein hull or pulp based nut in bin as you can inc/dec without upsetting rumen. It's the wrong question though, right one is how do I make sure I have good grass all the time!

Forget the variable fibre stuff, cow is a fermenter, she'll deal with it. Those thoughts are really only for seriously high input non grass based systems.

Best source of energy is grass at about 1200kg dm, no other feed can beat it on a ufl basis. Next is ground maize but it's very hard on cow. You need to think about when your feeding. Indoors on silage then you'd be thinking of some starch sources but not now.

Hope this is of some value. Plenty of nutritionist try a complicate the thing but it's mostly bull in an Irish context tbh.

Do you not reckon it's a bit of a pipe dream chasing the perfect 1200kgs cover with all leafy sward and no stem every single grazing, take the current situation we have gone from a drought scenario to having massive surpluses going to occur now with huge growth rates....
Grass has shot out here the past few days on all paddocks absolutely noting to do with grassland management, as paddocks that should of been skipped had to be grazed when growth rates where in the 30's of course I am skipping paddocks at the minute for bales but still having to go into some heavy covers as the entire milking platform can't be closed up.....
Totally disagree in terms of grass been a complete feed cows here are currently gone very loose as nitrogen been taken up by grass is sky high, hulls/beet pulp/and nis are been buffered to help alleviate this and keep Sara at bay, the one thing you can guarantee re grass it's always going to be variable quality no matter how good a grassland manager you are

Keepgrowing · 19-05-2017 09:28AM

jaymla627 wrote: »

Do you not reckon it's a bit of a pipe dream chasing the perfect 1200kgs cover with all leafy sward and no stem every single grazing, take the current situation we have gone from a drought scenario to having massive surpluses going to occur now with huge growth rates....
Grass has shot out here the past few days on all paddocks absolutely noting to do with grassland management, as paddocks that should of been skipped had to be grazed when growth rates where in the 30's of course I am skipping paddocks at the minute for bales but still having to go into some heavy covers as the entire milking platform can't be closed up.....
Totally disagree in terms of grass been a complete feed cows here are currently gone very loose as nitrogen been taken up by grass is sky high, hulls/beet pulp/and nis are been buffered to help alleviate this and keep Sara at bay, the one thing you can guarantee re grass it's always going to be variable quality no matter how good a grassland manager you are

Simple answer
Grass walk and measure at least 3 times a fortnight. No way should grass be shot out with the dry weather that's just past unless cows were over fed.

yewtree · 19-05-2017 09:45AM

Keepgrowing wrote: »

Simple answer
Grass walk and measure at least 3 times a fortnight. No way should grass be shot out with the dry weather that's just past unless cows were over fed.

Grass quality excellent here, the dry weather meant you could nail residuals and the lower growth rates meant grass never got ahead in early may. Plenty of surpluses now.
Grass is definitely carrying 25 litres here at the moment
Cows down to a kg more as a backing gate than anything

Mooooo · 19-05-2017 09:52AM

Weather worked well here in terms of quality of grass, had to graze ground I had planned to take silage off for 3 days but it was only at 1500 so manageable, the lowest p result for the last 8 weeks was 3.54 which for us is very good going would be down around 3.4 previously. Hope i didn't jinx it now ha. Surplus on the way but first cut due to be brought in and last paddocks grazed were done well so will hopefully manage it without quality dropping but this time of year will test it, always seem to lose it in June
Edit to add I took out 3days worth of grass for bales the week before the "drought" took effect which while made things tight it kept quality right. Obv didn't think growth would slow after baling it so perhaps lucky in that regard as if I thought growth would slow I may not have taken it and would have ended up grazing stronger grass

Dwag · 19-05-2017 12:12PM

thisyear wrote: »

Protein from corn distillers and gluten is fine. But Cow can't store protein in body, excess must be excreted. It has to be converted from protein into urine which is a chemical process which takes energy. So by feeding excess you are actually costing yourself energy, since there is plenty in the grass, try not out more in!

Losing bcs can be couple factors. Would need understand herd. Variable grass quality, keep low protein hull or pulp based nut in bin as you can inc/dec without upsetting rumen. It's the wrong question though, right one is how do I make sure I have good grass all the time!

Forget the variable fibre stuff, cow is a fermenter, she'll deal with it. Those thoughts are really only for seriously high input non grass based systems.

Best source of energy is grass at about 1200kg dm, no other feed can beat it on a ufl basis. Next is ground maize but it's very hard on cow. You need to think about when your feeding. Indoors on silage then you'd be thinking of some starch sources but not now.

Hope this is of some value. Plenty of nutritionist try a complicate the thing but it's mostly bull in an Irish context tbh.

Thanks.
This is my third attempt to pose a few more questions but the fecting site won't let me. I'll try by keeping it short and repeatedly editing..
High yielding herd of hols here. We try to keep solids at genetic potential of 3.3pr and 4.4bf as much as possible.
Due to grass being so variable in pr energy and fibre, it's not easy...bcs, solids and fertility are the main concerns.
Milk urea can be from 20 to 45. A few years back I was feeding rapeseed as a pr supplement and mu spiked, that led to cows that were scanned 35-50 days in calf repeating. I was told that rapeseed and distillers are rumen soluble prs and coupled with rich grass it led to embryo death..is that possible? We use homegrown prs now and no more problems.
On energy the cows bcs wouldn't agree that grass is the best source of energy. I have to heavily supplement crimped grain maize when on grass to hold bcs. Maybe my grass is shyte?
On fibre.
If we don't constantly monitor the consistency of dungs bf takes a dive. I always supplement straw and before we used beet pulp as a fibre source but now mainly use sorghum forage...
Would the problems be due to high inclusions of clovers in the sward?

Again sorry for all the questions.

Dwag · 19-05-2017 01:16PM

jaymla627 wrote: »

Do you not reckon it's a bit of a pipe dream chasing the perfect 1200kgs cover with all leafy sward and no stem every single grazing, take the current situation we have gone from a drought scenario to having massive surpluses going to occur now with huge growth rates....
Grass has shot out here the past few days on all paddocks absolutely noting to do with grassland management, as paddocks that should of been skipped had to be grazed when growth rates where in the 30's of course I am skipping paddocks at the minute for bales but still having to go into some heavy covers as the entire milking platform can't be closed up.....
Totally disagree in terms of grass been a complete feed cows here are currently gone very loose as nitrogen been taken up by grass is sky high, hulls/beet pulp/and nis are been buffered to help alleviate this and keep Sara at bay, the one thing you can guarantee re grass it's always going to be variable quality no matter how good a grassland manager you are

Apologies for my ignorance but what are nis and sara?

Wildsurfer · 19-05-2017 01:46PM

Dwag wrote: »

Apologies for my ignorance but what are nis and sara?

S.a.r.a. Sub Acute Rumen Acidosis

Injuryprone · 19-05-2017 03:03PM

Dwag wrote: »

Apologies for my ignorance but what are nis and sara?

https://mobile.twitter.com/mrsuperfibre

freedominacup · 19-05-2017 03:25PM

Injuryprone wrote: »

https://mobile.twitter.com/mrsuperfibre

I'm behind the times hugely just using oaten straw here plus lime and plenty of calmag. No problems with spray painting so far.

yosemitesam1 · 19-05-2017 03:28PM

Dwag wrote: »

Apologies for my ignorance but what are nis and sara?

Nis is chopped straw pellets treated with caustic soda to detach lignin and make more digestible

Dwag · 19-05-2017 05:53PM

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Nis is chopped straw pellets treated with caustic soda to detach lignin and make more digestible

Jayzuz.
How much per ton? Its pelleted I presume?

It's just straw...I'll stick to low lignin bmr maize and sorghum..

Buford T. Justice XIX · 19-05-2017 08:21PM

I installed the new Kerry app today and got yesterdays test results back just now. I might like this app yet.

Signpost · 19-05-2017 08:55PM

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I installed the new Kerry app today and got yesterdays test results back just now. I might like this app yet.

Where did you find this app?

Buford T. Justice XIX · 19-05-2017 09:01PM

Signpost wrote: »

Where did you find this app?

It's in the App store and Google Play store. It's called MilkedIn and you'll need your Kerryagribusiness login password as well to enable it.

Signpost · 19-05-2017 09:02PM

Thanks for that, hadn't heard of it!

Buford T. Justice XIX · 19-05-2017 09:08PM

Signpost wrote: »

Thanks for that, hadn't heard of it!

It's hidden away in the back page of this months newsletter. I only spotted it as I was throwing it out.

Dwag · 19-05-2017 11:37PM

Got 6mm of rain today...
Off now to add 20mm to that on pasture. So far I've added 180mmin the last 6weeks... grass doing exactly what I'd expect.
That will bring soil moisture deficit to 16mm...temps are low of late at circa 24*C.
Can get on well with a whole range of crops, but just can't ping this grass thing...learning curve I suppose.

Mooooo · 20-05-2017 08:49AM

Dwag wrote: »

Got 6mm of rain today...
Off now to add 20mm to that on pasture. So far I've added 180mmin the last 6weeks... grass doing exactly what I'd expect.
That will bring soil moisture deficit to 16mm...temps are low of late at circa 24*C.
Can get on well with a whole range of crops, but just can't ping this grass thing...learning curve I suppose.

Outside so can't look it up but I think there was a lad in the states who used to mintill in different types of grasses for the different times of year so the cows could graze, it was on YouTube. Now I dunno whether it was worth it or not but he started after noticing the lift in the milk when the cows broke out of the shed one day, 12 different grasses or something like that. A while since I saw it and like that was prob half asleep watching it

Dwag · 20-05-2017 09:28AM

Mooooo wrote: »

Outside so can't look it up but I think there was a lad in the states who used to mintill in different types of grasses for the different times of year so the cows could graze, it was on YouTube. Now I dunno whether it was worth it or not but he started after noticing the lift in the milk when the cows broke out of the shed one day, 12 different grasses or something like that. A while since I saw it and like that was prob half asleep watching it

Interesting, could you post a link please?

Dwag · 20-05-2017 09:30AM

Sent 16 culls to the factory and they averaged €1057 + vat. Happy enough.

Doing some 'scientific' research this morning...
Grass dm (microwave) 18.4%...grass, no clover!
Protein (hand held device for measuring pr in wheat flag leaf) 23.3%. Don't know how accurate that is...again grass only no clover tested as device reads default when I tried it on pure clover.

Cover at 18.4% dm is 1010kgdm/ha. Cows grazing this now.

Just did a dm test with clover and grass because clover is the majority of the sward and it's 17.1%...microwave!
It's raining so the accuracy is very questionable.

yosemitesam1 · 20-05-2017 10:27AM

Dwag wrote: »

Interesting, could you post a link please?

Lablab (tropical legume) would be ideal for that sort of system

Dwag · 20-05-2017 10:33AM

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Lablab (tropical legume) would be ideal for that sort of system

Is that pronounced lab lab, or la blab?

Will look it up thanks.

yosemitesam1 · 20-05-2017 11:10AM

Dwag wrote: »

Is that pronounced lab lab, or la blab?

Will look it up thanks.

http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/agriculture/broadacre-crops/forage-fodder/crops2/summer-legume-forage

I'll be down that way for the winter, will throw up a few pictures if it looks as good on the ground.

GrasstoMilk · 20-05-2017 11:11AM

Dwag wrote: »

Interesting, could you post a link please?

https://youtu.be/pLDKRXPyOh4
This is what moo is on about I think. This man gets rain though. Which is key to his system

Mooooo · 20-05-2017 12:31PM

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

https://youtu.be/pLDKRXPyOh4
This is what moo is on about I think. This man gets rain though. Which is key to his system

That's it alright, dunno would it be of any use to you dwag with grain rotations etc

thisyear · 20-05-2017 12:44PM

My two bits and just being careful that I don't know the herd!
Ruminant Nutrition is mostly maths, lots of nutritionists try to justify existence with wonderful diets and magic potions but in most cases doing the maths gets you there in grazing systems.
Cow needs 5ufl for maintenance and 0.44ufl for every litre milk. Can't remember the solids of that litre but something like 3.4 and 4.2. So you have high yielding herd, question is how much of energy demand will grass give. Assume cow can eat 18kg DM means grass is supplying about 18-19ufl. (Leafy grass Is 1.05ufl/kg). So that means there is 13-14ufl for milk production from grass which is a little over 30l per cow. If yielding higher than that need to supplement to increase dmi or the cow will milk off her back (1bc is 150Ufl)and it's the mobilising of fat that can cause the fert problems. So for 35l need another 2.2ufl but 1kg of ration will replace about 0.5kg of grass intake so every 1kg only increases diet ufl by about .5ufl hence the old 1:1 response line. So to support cow diet needs nearly 5kg concentrate and that's where problems can come if starch based as with sugar in grass and starch it's a fair loading on rumen. However if you think this is issue lift some cow's feet and if you feel heat between the claws it might be touch of laminitis which is sub clinical acidosis. Supplement with fibre based energy like pulp or gluten will help.
On fertility I will say this. Travelled a good bit and reality is great feeding regimes won't make up for genetic problem. Only have to look to Danes for that. Average yield 10000kgs,average lactation per cow 2.1 ie in life only sells 21000kgs. Think of replacement needed to maintain herd size. Hence why I use ebi and aim for 500kg ms in grass system and aiming for 5.5 lactation per cow.
That's my bit and as I said before each to their own!!!! It's your herd at the end of the day!

pedigree 6 · 20-05-2017 01:54PM

Kind of a link to the post above again.
(I'm doing this lately).

But the cows here are milking well atm.
Herd average on todays collection is 34 litres/day.
With 4kgs of 14%pr nut and as much grass as they can eat.
Strip wires are gone (this year) and 2 or 3 grazings a paddock.
Won't have the results of solids of today's collection for a few days.
Haven't even got the results of collection 2 days ago.
They must be still celebrating in Glanbia.

Dairy chit chat II

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