Why don't our prisoners work?

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Quick question. If prison is so nice and easy why not just go in yourselves?

I think you may be misunderstanding. Speaking for myself, I'm not saying prison is nice and easy, I'm saying prison is far less uncomfortable than it should be.
It's not The Hilton, but why should it be? Prison should surely do two things:

1) Encourage reformation of the criminals character and help him readjust to a useful life after release

2) Discourage the criminal from a return visit

The Irish prison system would appear not only not to do either of these things, but not to even attempt to do them.

Work would surely help reform the prisoners character, and help him prepare for life afterwards, and a tougher regime, where perks are earned not given automatically, would surely discourage return visits.

I realise that many people, especially those in the Irish legal profession, recoil at the thought that prison should be anything other than as comfy as possible, and bereft of any responsibility for the prisoner to attempt to reform himself, but that is surely not the best for society in general.

Wossack wrote: »

Im trying, but the judge keeps giving me suspended sentences

Silly you - stop all them sexual assaults and rapes and avoid tax on Garlic.

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Because we're not scumbags.

So are there a lot of scumbags in prison?

Gravelly wrote: »

There's a veritable army of strawmen in this post, but I'll tackle it as best I can.

I've never really understood this strawman thing it does seem to be all the rage in schools debating or something. There's so latin broken out occasionally. I quite like the irony of it when it's used in the usual arguments about the legal system.

Gravelly wrote: »

Nice strawman with lynching, beating etc. You might show me where I suggested any of that? A link, or a quote perhaps?

Is it like Worzel Gummidge or something? Or perhaps they were examples of how harsh justice systems don't do what you think they'll do. I dunno maybe that's one of those logical falsies things but I tend to try and have the discussion rather than a discussion on the discussion.

Gravelly wrote: »

And then on to the great Scandinavian prison model, so beloved of the Irish legal fraternity - oh, if only we could be like Sweden. What they'll never tell you is that Sweden's criminal justice system is so liberal that criminals routinely get away with heinous crimes, and get either a suspended sentence, or no sentence at all - makes the recidivism rates look great. They'll never tell you how recidivism rates among some classes of paedophiles in Sweden is 92%, but they still get off without being incarcerated - in fact, single convicted paedophiles can apply to adopt children, and some have been approved! Yes, Sweden is the model to follow alright.

Is that a strawman thingy?

Sweden is once country in what is termed Scandinavia by the way, just as sexual crime is one element of crime. There are also significant issues with Sweden, especially around sexual crime oddly enough. However there are two prison systems I'm aware of that deal effectively with recidivism. The first is the Scandinavian model which is largely accepted to be pretty good, although hardly the crime free utopia some make it out, however it's a hell of a lot better than the systems many like you suggest that are not only massively expensive but completely ineffectual.

The second being Japan which uses short sentences and somewhat harsh - as in no talking etc. rather than breaking rocks 18 hours a day - but the benefits are considered to stem from a cultural backdrop that we simply don't have.

Gravelly wrote: »

Here's a novel idea - if prisoners had work to do, perhaps the rates of drug addiction would go down?

Novel idea as in a load of bollocks? Heroin is a bit moreish from all accounts and tends to cloud ones judgment in many ways. Perhaps this would be a good place to start outside of the Criminal Justice System?

Gravelly wrote: »

Perhaps if we made prison a bit more like having to do a days work, we wouldn't have so many coming back time and time again?

Again most likely bollocks. They don't come back for the craic, as someone has pointed out it's very difficult to get sent to prison and nobody want to be there.

Gravelly wrote: »

Maybe if we trained prisoners in useful skills, they might get a job that didn't involve crime? Who knows? You certainly don't.

Now we're getting somewhere! I could not agree more and actually I do know. Yes that's exactly what we should be doing. It's massively expensive and will require more space and staff though. This or the Children's hospital - what do you reckon?

Gravelly wrote: »

We don't know, because we haven't tried. The current system certainly isn't working for anyone who isn't getting free legal aid money.

You're better off on the dole than working DC level legal aid as a barrister. A small number of solicitors firms make a few bob though. It's hardly the biggest issue but if it can be reformed happy days. It might get us 1%-2% towards the money we need for proper reform to the prison system.

Gravelly wrote: »

You should read "Freakonomics" some time. It has interesting case studies on unintended consequences. Are you seriously suggesting that the Irish legal profession, who have grown fat on recidivist criminality and "free" legal aid, and who have shown themselves to be virulently opposed to upsetting their lucrative apple cart, are going to change the system that makes them rich? Pull the other one!

We get to the crux of it. You don't like lawyers.

You are vastly overestimating the sums of money involved, especially in the minor offences department that the vast majority of people with loads of offences are involved in. If the legal profession was truly self serving it would be queuing up to have tough, harsh sentences, ideally consecutive sentences. Let's have a full trial on every single one of the 30 burglaries Roddy the Robber had previously asked to be taken into consideration.

The vast majority of crimes (90% IIRC) are plead guilty to, the quid pro quo for that is shorter sentences it saves a **** tonne of money, which is ultimately what the Irish system is about.

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

I've never really understood this strawman thing it does seem to be all the rage in schools debating or something. There's so latin broken out occasionally. I quite like the irony of it when it's used in the usual arguments about the legal system.

Tis a long time since I was in school, debating or otherwise, but they thought me not to feign ignorance, for only the ignorant do that.

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Is it like Worzel Gummidge or something? Or perhaps they were examples of how harsh justice systems don't do what you think they'll do. I dunno maybe that's one of those logical falsies things but I tend to try and have the discussion rather than a discussion on the discussion.

Harsh? Again, you seem to equate a bit of work with torture - why is that I wonder?

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Is that a strawman thingy?

You tell me, you're the expert.

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Sweden is once country in what is termed Scandinavia by the way, just as sexual crime is one element of crime. There are also significant issues with Sweden, especially around sexual crime oddly enough. However there are two prison systems I'm aware of that deal effectively with recidivism. The first is the Scandinavian model which is largely accepted to be pretty good, although hardly the crime free utopia some make it out, however it's a hell of a lot better than the systems many like you suggest that are not only massively expensive but completely ineffectual.

It's kinda ironic (seeing as how you seem to like a bot of 'oul irony) that you point out (or try to anyway) that Sweden is just one country of what is termed Scandinavia, but then pretend that all of Scandinavia has one legal system.

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

The second being Japan which uses short sentences and somewhat harsh - as in no talking etc. rather than breaking rocks 18 hours a day - but the benefits are considered to stem from a cultural backdrop that we simply don't have.

You know those strawmen we spoke about? That would be one.

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Novel idea as in a load of bollocks? Heroin is a bit moreish from all accounts and tends to cloud ones judgment in many ways. Perhaps this would be a good place to start outside of the Criminal Justice System?

How many people do you know hold down a full time job while addicted to heroin? Me neither. A bit cause an effect obviously, but still, worth considering. Unless you are an expert on addiction? No, I didn't think so.

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Again most likely bollocks. They don't come back for the craic, as someone has pointed out it's very difficult to get sent to prison and nobody want to be there.

Most likely = I haven't a clue, but I'll disagree anyway

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Now we're getting somewhere! I could not agree more and actually I do know. Yes that's exactly what we should be doing. It's massively expensive and will require more space and staff though. This or the Children's hospital - what do you reckon?

Massively expensive = I haven't a clue how much, but I'll disagree anyway. How much? If we spend any money on anything we can't build the childrens hospital? Better hope the HSE doesn't go another billion over budget next year then.

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

You're better off on the dole than working DC level legal aid as a barrister. A small number of solicitors firms make a few bob though. It's hardly the biggest issue but if it can be reformed happy days. It might get us 1%-2% towards the money we need for proper reform to the prison system.

The average barrister earns less than €188 per week? Any links for that figure, or, like the rest of your post, did it spontaneously appear from your rear end?
Over €50 million a year on legal aid. A million a week. Peanuts, sure you can't buy a decent private jet for that kind of money nowadays.

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

We get to the crux of it. You don't like lawyers.

Oh the poor lawyers, won't someone think of the children.

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

You are vastly overestimating the sums of money involved, especially in the minor offences department that the vast majority of people with loads of offences are involved in. If the legal profession was truly self serving it would be queuing up to have tough, harsh sentences, ideally consecutive sentences. Let's have a full trial on every single one of the 30 burglaries Roddy the Robber had previously asked to be taken into consideration.

Geese. Golden eggs. Basic stuff, please don't over do the condescension, it works better if you use it sparingly.

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

The vast majority of crimes (90% IIRC) are plead guilty to, the quid pro quo for that is shorter sentences it saves a **** tonne of money, which is ultimately what the Irish system is about.

Shorter sentences + recidivist criminals + unlimited legal aid = plenty of gravy for everyone.

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

I see that you've an open mind and have fully though through all your points. As for the rear end comments, I can see your points are all peer reviewed and backed up with sourced information.

€54 million I believe was the figure for 2016. There were 38 murders in 2016 - that doesn't mean they were tried in the same year of course but rough figures here. How much of that €54 was taken up by the fees in murder cases? What level of frequent recidivism is there among murder convictions? What do you reckon the solution is - simply deny people access to a defence?

As for my figures, go and ask some of the lads in practice and they'll run through their expenses such as the Law Library fee and what they make - I've found them pretty open about it. Bear in mind the one's still in practice are the once that have managed to make it work, many don't.

Take solace in the fact that you're winning the argument - not with me but the wider one that counts. Your opinion is the prevailing one, the one that gets people elected, the one that's got us here...

Oh and BTW all of Scandinavia is one legal system and it's a damn more expensive than the common law system.

It's simple really, and all this gets us nowhere - I believe that perfectly humane, useful work, in the same conditions as anyone on the outside would work under, would be beneficial for prisoners, teaching them new skills and preparing them for a contribution to society on release. You believe that this is tantamount to torture and lynching, and means I hate lawyers. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Gravelly wrote: »

It's simple really, and all this gets us nowhere - I believe that perfectly humane, useful work, in the same conditions as anyone on the outside would work under, would be beneficial for prisoners, teaching them new skills and preparing them for a contribution to society on release. You believe that this is tantamount to torture and lynching, and means I hate lawyers. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I think I'm getting this straw-man thingy.

I agreed that work and new skills where a good thing and merely tried to educate you on where the money is going while conceding there is room for reform (legislation to that effect in the works as we speak).

Where we differ is you seem to think it's like some sort of easy ride where as I know there are very few if any that want to be there or want to return. They keep doing so for the very reason you have rightly pointed out, lack of skills, both coping and employment.

Really Interested wrote: »

Where dis I say that. In fact I said prisoners do work and from what I am told most want to.

You didn't, the sensitive lawyer above you did.

Gravelly wrote: »

You didn't, the sensitive lawyer above you did.

IANAL.

The chances of me being able to survive the attrician at the bar are very slim indeed, if I ever even qualify. I like being able to afford food.

A Battered Mars Bar wrote: »

What are they doing all day? Just lounging around playing ps4?

Only punishment suitable for them would be to put them to work in prison. As most of them haven't done a days work in their lives it would put a bit of discipline in them and they will learn the merits of working hard.

And I don't mean cotton wool jobs like laundry and kitchen work. I mean making stuff that can be sold so the state profits or digging. There is always stuff to be dug.

Just think it's a joke that they're allowed lay about all day like lazy sods in prison.

Some do lay around all the time but most don't. There is work if you can get a job and there are courses you can do.

But when people say make prisoners work - some do get to go outside to work mainly from open prisons like Shelton Abbey and from the Training Unit in Mountjoy - and then the papers have a story about people been out of prison and working people complain that they shouldn't be out of prison and working and should be kept locked up.

Even if everybody wanted to work there aren't enough jobs for everyone and you have to be in for a while to get a job. Plenty of prisoners are wing cleaners but the best jobs are in the gardens or in the kitchens which I did. But it took a while to get that job.

You only get a little bit more on your daily allowance if you are working so people don't do it for the money. I'd much prefer to be doing something useful in the kitchens instead of just spending my time in my cell smoking and watching TV or hanging about on the landings. I did a few courses as well to fil up the time as much as I could.

I had my problems going into prison but nothing like some of the others in there. I was working as a waiter before prison so not everybody there hasn't worked a day in their life like you said. I sometimes did 50 hours a week in my job.

There are workshops where people make things and learn skills but I didn't do that. What do you mean by digging? Even if they did do that people would be saying that it would be "dangerous" to have prisoners out working doing it.

Conservative wrote: »

Stick the scobes in hard labour camps 14 hours a day, 7 days a week. Living conditions should be cramped, literally a pot to piss in. Think how

Reoffenders could increased to 18 hour days, one meal otherwise placed in solitary confinement for the entirety of their sentence.

Third time offenders hung in the streets.


Instead we have the UN telling us we are currently infringing on their human rights but putting them 3 to a cell.

You do know that up until recently there was still slopping out in some prisons here? They were refurbishing Mountjoy when I was there to do away with that.

Because of all the trouble going on in prisons there are plenty of prisoners in solitary confinement - locked in their cells 23 hours a day pretty much.

Beyondgone wrote: »

Hamster wheels - big ones. Loads of them. Linked to a generator, wired into the grid.

5 hours a day of Team-Hamster-Wheeling. In shifts - shifts that run 24 hours a day. Big slaps for those who refuse to put their shoulder feet to the wheel.
Be like wind power only more reliable.

They could call it "Prisoner Empowerment". Feck it, they could call it "Mickeys big machine" for all I care, once it chucked out loads of clean electricity for the grid and kept the "lads" active.

Yeah right. Just keep on dreaming.

Some people seem to believe everything they see in the papers and think that prisons are a holiday camp but they are nothing like that. I've been in Mountjoy, the Training Unit and Wheatfield so know what I am talking about. Yeah you have a TV in your cell but they deduct for the cost of that from your allowance. If they didn't have TVs in the cell there would be more trouble and people kicking off from being bored out of their minds. There is enough trouble in prison without making it worse. Even if you stay away from all that you can say the wrong thing to the wrong person and get into bother.

Most people in prison have other problems that is part of the reason why they are there and I think they could do more to deal with problems while you are there and not drinking/on drugs as much.

But when you get out nobody wants to give you a chance if they hear you've been in prison especially with jobs and people fall out with their missus and families. I was lucky that when I got out I could go home to my family and also signed up to go to college after a few months. I am back working part time too .