Why don't our prisoners work?

Gravelly

osarusan wrote: »

You are embarrassing yourself.

You made a claim, it was proven wrong, and you decide to go down the 'nit-picking' route.

Rather than not addressing your 'real point', it's been shown that you don't actually have any 'real point' when it comes to playstations.

Yes, because that was the point I was making :rolleyes:

biscuithead

Gravelly wrote: »

Google "Irony"



Maybe if you read my post on what I proposed, rather than prematurely ejaculating your incoherent snowflakery all over the thread, we might have a position to start from?

I know exactly what irony is. But if you're trying to suggest that I insulted you, you might want to try again. Your recommendations ARE narrowminded. That's not an insult. It's a fact.

Gravelly

biscuithead wrote: »

I know exactly what irony is. But if you're trying to suggest that I insulted you, you might want to try again. Your recommendations ARE narrowminded. That's not an insult. It's a fact.

Google "fact"

Kimbot

Gravelly wrote: »

Yet again, what I've been saying for several posts. You have picked up on one tiny issue (singular playstation provided by authorities rather than plural playstations provided by prisoners families (or possibly stolen!)) rather than address any real point. Ridiculous nit picking, but there you are.

In one of your posts towards another poster you wanted a reply about the playstation stuff, I answered your question on playstations and yet your still nit picking.

Boom_Bap

Gravelly wrote: »

Google "fact"

Seriously dude, telling people to google things as a responce is troll level 46.

Gravelly

Boom_Bap wrote: »

Seriously dude, telling people to google things as a responce is troll level 46.

Not when they misunderstand basic words.

If I say fact after something, that, surprisingly, doesn't make it a fact, even if I really want it to be.

Boom_Bap

Gravelly wrote: »

Not when they misunderstand basic words.

If I say fact after something, that, surprisingly, doesn't make it a fact, even if I really want it to be.

We are not the word police. Just for the sake of the forum, let's not use the 'Google it' retort anymore.

Gravelly

jonnycivic wrote: »

In one of your posts towards another poster you wanted a reply about the playstation stuff, I answered your question on playstations and yet your still nit picking.

But you didn't answer. You made an assertion, which was incorrect. You refused, despite me providing links, to admit your error, and then thanked another poster for correcting you.

I admitted I was wrong (kind of) in my assertion, you can too, it doesn't hurt, I promise.

biscuithead

Gravelly wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/prisoners-riot-gear-fishtank-2089602-May2015/

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/lonergan-defends-prisoners-access-to-playstations-631367.html

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/145k-taxpayers-bill-for-prisoners-to-watch-sky-sports-30754201.html

That took about 20 seconds. Google is your friend.

I asked for evidence of the state, ergo the taxpayer paying for game consoles for prison inmates. You come back with a piece about Sky sports, a piece about prison management buying a nutcase a playstation to keep him quiet and 55 game console "circulating" in Mountjoy. Where did those game consoles come from?


You keep trying to say that the prisoners have the best of everything. the latest and greatest. That they eat the best food, that they have top of the range electronics toys and to back it up you provide those kind of cock and bull stories. We have a guy on this thread who has actually done time in Mountjoy and I think Wheatfield. He would know a hell of a lot more about every aspect of prison life than you do. You haven't challenged him I notice. You've stayed well away from him with your rants.

DickSwiveller

Becuase the liberal trendies who run every single institution, from the courts to the guards, the education system and the prisons, view criminals as victims of society who should be sympathized with. Just look at the re offending rate of people who've been sent to prison and released. There is absolutely no attempt at deterring these people, which explains why so many low life scum who appear before the courts have clocked up so many convictions. The perpetrators of an horrific burglary in Tipperary a few months ago had something like 470 convictions between them. As I say, all these institutions have no interest in defending law abiding people, and are solely concerned with following their failed policies.

Gravelly

Boom_Bap wrote: »

We are not the word police. Just for the sake of the forum, let's not use the 'Google it' retort anymore.

Can we still make up new meanings for words to support our incorrect arguments?

Gravelly

biscuithead wrote: »

I asked for evidence of the state, ergo the taxpayer paying for game consoles for prison inmates. You come back with a piece about Sky sports, a piece about prison management buying a nutcase a playstation to keep him quiet and 55 game console "circulating" in Mountjoy. Where did those game consoles come from?


You keep trying to say that the prisoners have the best of everything. the latest and greatest. That they eat the best food, that they have top of the range electronics toys and to back it up you provide those kind of cock and bull stories. We have a guy on this thread who has actually done time in Mountjoy and I think Wheatfield. He would know a hell of a lot more about every aspect of prison life than you do. You haven't challenged him I notice. You've stayed well away from him with your rants.

Again, you are lying, and attributing things to me that I didn't say. Either argue against the points I did make, or don't, but don't make stuff up.

biscuithead

Gravelly wrote: »

No response to the playstation stuff eh?

Well, other than common sense (which seems to be extremely uncommon among a certain cohort), I have no evidence that they wouldn't - have you?

You have no evidence that a stupid proposal would work but then your justification for implementing it is that you have no evidence that it wouldn't work.

And you mention this tripe in the same sentence as "common sense"?

Boom_Bap

Gravelly wrote: »

Can we still make up new meanings for words to support our incorrect arguments?

See this right here that I've bolded. That's also trolling.

If you want to take this discussion off the thread, feel free to PM me as this is taking the discussion off topic.

Gravelly

Boom_Bap wrote: »

See this right here that I've bolded. That's also trolling.

If you want to take this discussion off the thread, feel free to PM me as this is taking the discussion off topic.

:rolleyes: Sure.

Kimbot

Gravelly wrote: »

At present "your" money is being spent on providing Sky Sports and Playstations to recidivist criminals with absolutely no evidence that it does anything other than make them want to go back inside on numerous occasions for "a break".
When they don't feel like a break, "your" money is spent, in vast quantities, ensuring they get legal representation to stay out, regardless of their record.

The definition of madness is trying the same thing over and over, expecting a different result - forcing prisoners to work may not be the solution, but it sure beats doing nothing.

Gravelly wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/prisoners-riot-gear-fishtank-2089602-May2015/

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/lonergan-defends-prisoners-access-to-playstations-631367.html

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/145k-taxpayers-bill-for-prisoners-to-watch-sky-sports-30754201.html

That took about 20 seconds. Google is your friend.

Gravelly wrote: »

No response to the playstation stuff eh?

Well, other than common sense (which seems to be extremely uncommon among a certain cohort), I have no evidence that they wouldn't - have you?

Gravelly wrote: »

"A PRISONER WHO has attacked more than two dozen prison officers over the past decade is currently being bought Playstation games by prison managers and has a fish tank outside his cell"

Gravelly wrote: »

Again, you are lying, and attributing things to me that I didn't say. Either argue against the points I did make, or don't, but don't make stuff up.

Nothing made up there, you said it... plain and simple as that.

biscuithead

Gravelly wrote: »

Google "argument from incredulity"

No. No I won't. You claimed that forcing people to work would cut down on drug addiction. Whether I derided your claim through sensationalism is immaterial. All you are doing is using pettiness (once again) and condescension to avoid defending your ridiculous hypotheses.

DickSwiveller

jonnycivic wrote: »

Nothing made up there, you said it... plain and simple as that.

Can you too stop bickering and deal with the actual issue. I keep getting notifications, and every time it's one of you whinging.

biscuithead

Panthro wrote: »

Yes.

They shouldn't have done something wrong which in turn wound them up in prison, and we shouldn't have to pay for them while they're in there.

Perhaps seize any assets they have and sell them off to pay for their free holiday.

If we can live by the laws of the land and keep our heads out of prison then they should be able to also.

So what do you propose happens to somebody who commits a crime? Give me a run down of his/her punishment.

biscuithead

Gravelly wrote: »

Which is exactly what I said in my last (several) posts.

You also tried to shoehorn an article about sky sports to back up your mythical game console claim.

DickSwiveller

biscuithead wrote: »

So what do you propose happens to somebody who commits a crime? Give me a run down of his/her punishment.

Proper punishment. No weasley sentences. Hard labour everyday for a number of days, no televisions, Playstations etc. That's how you deter someone. What do you propose? The same policies that have our prisoners packed?

Summer wind

biscuithead wrote: »

"3 course meals" FFS

Now you're trying to equate:

- bowl of soup
- meatballs and mash
- tub of yoghurt or piece of fruit

with

- Angus carpaccio with shaved parmesan and extra virgin Tuscan olive oil
- Biscay lobster thermador and filet mignon surf n turf
- Armagnac drizzled tirimisu


Just because they have 3 damn courses

And they have TV. Would you prefer a prisoner to be staring at a TV or at the wall because I know what the guards would prefer.

And they have a gym. So EFFING what? Of course now, like your 3 course trick, you'll try and say that a few machines, punch bags and free weights in a room is actually a 5 star health spa replete with jacuzzis, steam rooms, saunas, 24/7 massages, pedicures etc., that would not look out of place in Monte Carlo or Dubai.

Yes they do get 3 course meals. They are well fed. Yes they have tv. In 2015 the Irish prison service spent €370,000 on sports and gym equipment. I think this is wrong and that money could have been spent much better elsewhere.

livedadream

Summer wind wrote: »

biscuithead wrote: »

"3 course meals" FFS

Now you're trying to equate:

- bowl of soup
- meatballs and mash
- tub of yoghurt or piece of fruit

with

- Angus carpaccio with shaved parmesan and extra virgin Tuscan olive oil
- Biscay lobster thermador and filet mignon surf n turf
- Armagnac drizzled tirimisu


Just because they have 3 damn courses

And they have TV. Would you prefer a prisoner to be staring at a TV or at the wall because I know what the guards would prefer.

And they have a gym. So EFFING what? Of course now, like your 3 course trick, you'll try and say that a few machines, punch bags and free weights in a room is actually a 5 star health spa replete with jacuzzis, steam rooms, saunas, 24/7 massages, pedicures etc., that would not look out of place in Monte Carlo or Dubai.

Yes they do get 3 course meals. They are well fed. Yes they have tv. In 2015 the Irish prison service spent €370,000 on sports and gym equipment. I think this is wrong and that money could have been spent much better elsewhere.

here:

Address Information Officer
  Department of Justice and Equality
  51 St. Stephen's Green
  Dublin 2
  D02 HK52
   
Phone: + 353 1 602 8202  Ext. 8408/8417
Lo-Call: 1890 221 227  Ext. 8408/8417
E-mail:  foi@justice.ie

their waiting your strongly worded letter.

Samuel T. Cogley

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Proper punishment. No weasley sentences. Hard labour everyday for a number of days, no televisions, Playstations etc. That's how you deter someone. What do you propose? The same policies that have our prisoners packed?

The policies you suggest also see prisons packed the world over. The only thing they do - which arguably is a legitimate aim - is make society 'feel good'. It doesn't reduce crime, in fact the opposite, it doesn't reduce recidivism and it increases cost in trying to keep a lid on it.

So honest question here - why do it? Why not do what would reduce crime etc. Putting cost aside as tbh it's the only reason we don't do it. What makes you (and others) so sure hard labour would be any form of deterrent? I'm keeping an open mind here - maybe I've missed something.

osarusan

Summer wind wrote: »

In 2015 the Irish prison service spent ?370,000 on sports and gym equipment. I think this is wrong and that money could have been spent much better elsewhere.

As i understand it, the gym materials (and the tv, and the playstations) are to keep them occupied and get them to burn off as much stress as they can, so that the likelihood of them kicking the crap out of each other and the prison staff is reduced.

I don't have a problem with money being set aside for this, especially as assaulted/injured prisoners have been awarded compensation for Prison Board negligence in the past, so I wouldn't be surprised if the expense on those things is more than recouped.

biscuithead

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Proper punishment. No weasley sentences. Hard labour everyday for a number of days, no televisions, Playstations etc. That's how you deter someone. What do you propose? The same policies that have our prisoners packed?

The poster that I was responding to stated that "we" shouldn't have to pay for them [prisoners]. And my question was what did her propose happens to a person who commits a crime. He doesn't want anything paid for out of his precious taxes so I asked what should happen to a convicted prisoner that has zero impact on the taxpayer.

Can you come up with the answer to my question other than the rather vague and dismissive "real punishment".

You see internet hard men are very good at coming up with tough-guy answers to problems. They're even better at calling names those who question either the viability, morality or sanity of their inane ideas but they are pitifully incapable of providing any semblance of rational and substantiated reasoning and justification for their hot-air.

biscuithead

Summer wind wrote: »

Yes they do get 3 course meals. They are well fed. Yes they have tv. In 2015 the Irish prison service spent €370,000 on sports and gym equipment. I think this is wrong and that money could have been spent much better elsewhere.

You might want to track back and read the post by Omackeral (who actually wroks in a prison) where he states they DON'T get 3 course meals.

And WTF is the big deal about a 3 course meal? A cup of tea, a cheese sandwich and a grape is a 3 course meal.

What exactly did they get for 370k?
You know I could tell you that the Prison Service spent XYZ on cleaning bed linen for prisoners and you'd say that money would have been better fcuking spent elsewhere.

Tell me every single thing you would like cut. Maybe electricity? They should sit in the dark? Toilet paper? Soap?

DickSwiveller

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

The policies you suggest also see prisons packed the world over. The only thing they do - which arguably is a legitimate aim - is make society 'feel good'. It doesn't reduce crime, in fact the opposite, it doesn't reduce recidivism and it increases cost in trying to keep a lid on it.

So honest question here - why do it? Why not do what would reduce crime etc. Putting cost aside as tbh it's the only reason we don't do it. What makes you (and others) so sure hard labour would be any form of deterrent? I'm keeping an open mind here - maybe I've missed something.

Surely it would be much more of a deterrent than what we currently do. Can you name these countries where it's been tried and failed? Are you happy with the system as it is?

twowheelsonly

wakka12 wrote: »

What about something like cleaning up rivers and beaches and parks of rubbish or other things beneficial to the community rather than making commodities that a prison can sell for profit

Community Service and Community Release Schemes (CRS) do exactly that.

pilly wrote: »

Why is the 3 strikes rule absurd?

Personally I think the 3 strikes rule should apply to Free Legal Aid. In the event that someone unexpectedly needs it then they'd be covered, in the event that someone routinely needs it they can pay for it themselves.

Panthro wrote: »

Yes.

They shouldn't have done something wrong which in turn wound them up in prison, and we shouldn't have to pay for them while they're in there.

Perhaps seize any assets they have and sell them off to pay for their free holiday.

If we can live by the laws of the land and keep our heads out of prison then they should be able to also.

:rolleyes: All I can say to that is 'Never Say Never'. Plenty of people in jails that never expected to end up in there.

BTW, if "we shouldn't have to pay for them..." how the hell is the system supposed to paid for ?

Summer wind wrote: »

Yes they do get 3 course meals. They are well fed. Yes they have tv. In 2015 the Irish prison service spent €370,000 on sports and gym equipment. I think this is wrong and that money could have been spent much better elsewhere.

Where I work there's one 3 course meal in the year - Christmas dinner.
Well fed ? That's subjective, but if you consider a bowl of shredded cheese and a tomato at 4.30 pm with nothing again until cereal at 8am then you're entitled to consider that well fed I suppose.

Yes they have TV. IMO nothing wrong with that as they spend 18 hours a day in cells, suicide and attempted suicide rates have dropped massively since their introduction, as has in cell vandalism. BTW, contrary to popular opinion they don't have Sky Sports etc and they don't all have Playstations either.

IMO nothing wrong with Gym equipment either if it keeps their minds and bodies occupied. 370k equates to about 30k per prison which isn't massive either considering that Mountjoy and Cork were both being refurbished about this time. Most prison gyms in the country only accommodate around 20-25 prisoners at a time maximum so it's not like they're massive state of the art gymnasiums.



Back on topic, most prisoners want to work whilst in jail but there's not enough work for them and there's regularly not enough staff to open the workshops that are there. Prison Officers want to see them in workshops or otherwise occupied. Far better that than 200 prisoners walking around a yard.

biscuithead

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

The policies you suggest also see prisons packed the world over. The only thing they do - which arguably is a legitimate aim - is make society 'feel good'. It doesn't reduce crime, in fact the opposite, it doesn't reduce recidivism and it increases cost in trying to keep a lid on it.

So honest question here - why do it? Why not do what would reduce crime etc. Putting cost aside as tbh it's the only reason we don't do it. What makes you (and others) so sure hard labour would be any form of deterrent? I'm keeping an open mind here - maybe I've missed something.

It satisfies a sadistic streak.