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Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    I think 5/6 defeats is about right. Can see them losing all tests along with Crusaders possibly the Blues and/oe Chiefs games.

    I think they'll beat the Highlanders and Hurricanes who won't have any test players available. By that stage, the midweek team will have been established and they'll have a decent enough chance.

    I can see them beating the Maori side though. In 2005, the Maori side was filled with stars. This Maori team isn't nearly as experienced or high profile. It is also 7 days before the first test and will be used as the full dress rehearsal for that game so it will be a strong Lions team.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,885 ✭✭✭b.gud


    Buer wrote: »
    I think they'll beat the Highlanders and Hurricanes who won't have any test players available. By that stage, the midweek team will have been established and they'll have a decent enough chance.

    I could be wrong but I thought that New Zealand were going to make their internationals available to all the SR sides?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 553 ✭✭✭Elvisjuice


    b.gud wrote: »
    I could be wrong but I thought that New Zealand were going to make their internationals available to all the SR sides?

    for most of the matches they might , not sure if this has changed


    Three of the first four tour matches for the team are against three of New Zealand's Super Rugby sides. The Blues, Crusaders and Highlanders look set to be at full strength. The games against the Chiefs and Hurricanes take place only days before the first and second tests, meaning those provincial teams will be weakened.

    "The Super Rugby sides will be loaded up with All Blacks early because there's a bit of time from game one to the first test and they need to play and then as we get closer to the test some of those franchises will have less access to the All Blacks as we start preparing for it", New Zealand selector Grant Fox admitted.

    The Lions have not won a test match in New Zealand since 1993, and have lost nine of their last ten matches against the All Blacks. In 2005, the last time the touring side played in New Zealand, the Lions lost the series 3-0.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,561 ✭✭✭swiwi_


    Buer wrote: »
    I think 5/6 defeats is about right. Can see them losing all tests along with Crusaders possibly the Blues and/oe Chiefs games.

    I think they'll beat the Highlanders and Hurricanes who won't have any test players available. By that stage, the midweek team will have been established and they'll have a decent enough chance.

    I can see them beating the Maori side though. In 2005, the Maori side was filled with stars. This Maori team isn't nearly as experienced or high profile. It is also 7 days before the first test and will be used as the full dress rehearsal for that game so it will be a strong Lions team.

    They will beat the invitational side and the Blues. The Crusaders will be a major test, potentially the Highlanders also, although I could see the Highlanders lose the forward battle and thus the match. The Maori AB were a bit rubbish last season, but if they are bolstered by AB fringe candidates they could be difficult. Chiefs will be stripped of their NZ players, ditto the Canes, but it should also be Lions midweek team, so could be close enough.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,997 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    b.gud wrote: »
    Are Paddy Powers giving odds on a 10-0 series loss? I reckon it could be worth a fiver
    Save your dosh. There's no way the N.Z. sides will lose every game.:D
    :D


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,295 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    They will beat the invitational side and the Blues. The Crusaders will be a major test, potentially the Highlanders also, although I could see the Highlanders lose the forward battle and thus the match. The Maori AB were a bit rubbish last season, but if they are bolstered by AB fringe candidates they could be difficult. Chiefs will be stripped of their NZ players, ditto the Canes, but it should also be Lions midweek team, so could be close enough.

    Excuse me!! They will not beat the mighty Blues at Fortress Eden! 2017 is our return to the glory years of last century (and the start of this one).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭shootermacg


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    Well that's never going to happen, but I appreciate you getting your excuses in early...

    You could argue that the Lions consists of the cream of British & Irish talent, whereas the Super Rugby sides are, well, club sides, but that wouldn't really help the position advanced I suppose.

    Will just have to remain one of rugby's Great Unanswered Questions...

    You can pull together a rag/tag bunch of players, give them a few weeks together and call them a team, but it's hardly a team.

    Put in contrast a team that's played together for years and it really shouldn't be a contest. Defense is not something you can patch together, neither is attack. They are both built on experience playing in the line next to players you're familiar to.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,561 ✭✭✭swiwi_


    You can pull together a rag/tag bunch of players, give them a few weeks together and call them a team, but it's hardly a team.

    Might as well just call off the Lions tour so.

    Such defeatism, dare i say a bit of a loser attitude. Yes, the Super teams have familiarity but the Lions are supposed to have the best players from 4 countries.

    I suspect it's all tied in with the anti-Gatland vibe, if Schmidt was in charge I suspect the tenor of the thread would be more positive.

    All the NZ teams are eminently beatable, if the Lions get selection and tactics right.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 732 ✭✭✭penybont exile


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    Might as well just call off the Lions tour so.

    Such defeatism, dare i say a bit of a loser attitude. Yes, the Super teams have familiarity but the Lions are supposed to have the best players from 4 countries.

    I suspect it's all tied in with the anti-Gatland vibe, if Schmidt was in charge I suspect the tenor of the thread would be more positive.

    All the NZ teams are eminently beatable, if the Lions get selection and tactics right.
    Just watched my first full game of S18 this year ..... can't say i was overwhelmed.

    I guess one swallow doesn't make a summer but both teams this morning had weaknesses.

    Crusaders ball retention was poor and the Hurricanes scrum was dire. IMO the Lions should beat both with a solid, structured simple game plan.

    For what it's worth i think the Lions will be very competitive on this tour. They have been competitive on all tours back to '89 with the exception of '05 when the tour was mismanaged and the opposition were at their zenith. I'm not convinced this NZ team is as good as the 05 team and the Lions 23 will be infinitely better both in personnel and game plan.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭shootermacg


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    Might as well just call off the Lions tour so.

    Exactly! It's just a money spinner and means nothing, nothing at all. I'd rather our lads had a proper break.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    History has shown that the Lions always struggle for cohesiveness and generally find it tough against the better non-Test sides.

    That's not defeatism or a loser attitude, it's just a fact.

    Saying the best players from four countries should instantly form the sum of their parts is basically saying that coaching and training don't matter.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭shootermacg


    History has shown that the Lions always struggle for cohesiveness and generally find it tough against the better non-Test sides.

    That's not defeatism or a loser attitude, it's just a fact.

    Saying the best players from four countries should instantly form the sum of their parts is basically saying that coaching and training don't matter.

    Of course, anyone who knows anything about rugby would say the same. Of course some people would draw pride from a stone.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,191 ✭✭✭Cosmo Kramer


    A lot to be said for picking familiar combinations to help with bringing some cohesion to the Lions in a short space of time. Picking George/Itoje/Kruis to mirror the Saracens lineout would definitely be one worth looking at.

    In fact you could pick the bulk of a decent team by focusing on the three teams that progressed furthest in Europe this year:

    1 McGrath
    2 George
    3 Furlong
    4 Itoje
    5 Kruis
    6 Stander
    (7 Warburton)
    8 Vunipola
    9 Murray
    10 Sexton
    12 Farrell
    13 Henshaw

    5 Saracens, 4 Leinster and 2 Munster players.

    Just Warburton and the back three from outside those teams - maybe go for a Welsh combination with or without Stuart Hogg in the back three to finish out the team. Could blend together a lot quicker or more successfully than just picking the 15 best individuals in their positions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,191 ✭✭✭Cosmo Kramer


    Edit - double post


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    I'll be intrigued to see how the Lions tour pans out. Among the many dime-a-dozen clichés is that defense is much better in the NH than in the SH. If this is indeed the case, the Super Rugby franchises will be coming up against irresistible Lion brick walls.

    On the other hand, if the Lions leak tries, I'll be interested to get your viewpoint on why that is.

    We will have an answer in a few weeks.

    (another cliché is that the SH is much better on attack than the NH...again we will see)

    Edit: I suppose we could end up with the close scorelines, as the North can't attack but defend well, and South can't defend but attack well...

    this entire post is a piss take right?

    Your going to have players from 4 countries, most who have never played before together... with coaches they have never worked under... away from home... who are almost defiently going to play gatty ball?

    Maybe if they had a proper coach...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,422 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    A lot to be said for picking familiar combinations to help with bringing some cohesion to the Lions in a short space of time. Picking George/Itoje/Kruis to mirror the Saracens lineout would definitely be one worth looking at.

    In fact you could pick the bulk of a decent team by focusing on the three teams that progressed furthest in Europe this year:

    1 McGrath
    2 George
    3 Furlong
    4 Itoje
    5 Kruis
    6 Stander
    (7 Warburton)
    8 Vunipola
    9 Murray
    10 Sexton
    12 Farrell
    13 Henshaw

    5 Saracens, 4 Leinster and 2 Munster players.

    Just Warburton and the back three from outside those teams - maybe go for a Welsh combination with or without Stuart Hogg in the back three to finish out the team. Could blend together a lot quicker or more successfully than just picking the 15 best individuals in their positions.
    I really think Payne could be in with an excellent chance at making the 23, if not starting. Far more complete player than Hogg or Williams. A lot will depend on whether 1/2p is favored as a kicker over Sexton and Farrell.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭sting60


    We have not brought enough hard men as an Irishman speaking the Grey brothers should tour big time.We as a unit are not big enough for a tour this physical.Great Brown has not been considered for obvious reasons with the Irish boys.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,196 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Hard man and Richie Gray are not terms one often sees used together.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Hard man and Richie Gray are not terms one often sees used together.

    Precisely. Big work rate, good hands, athletic for their size but not nearly as mobile as those that are going.

    100% not enforcers though; I would say the people who see the brothers as hard men on the pitch can be counted on fingers.

    Gatland spoke about his selections in the second row recently noting he has gone with guys that he feels have the skills and athleticism to compete with the NZ forwards. There's a very clear pattern in the guys he has gone with. Lawes, Henderson, Kruis, Itoje....they're all extremely comfortable with the ball, fast over the ground and mobile. They all have experience of playing at blindside.

    That's why someone like Launchbury or Ryan isn't going. They don't fit the game or type of player that's needed, for the coaches.

    AWJ is the exception and he's there as the experienced old head and trusted lieutenant which is understandable given the front five is very light on Lions experience.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,561 ✭✭✭swiwi_


    Exactly! It's just a money spinner and means nothing, nothing at all. I'd rather our lads had a proper break.
    Of course, anyone who knows anything about rugby would say the same. Of course some people would draw pride from a stone.

    You're combining those unique characteristics one finds in a small segment of rugby supporters: snobbery, condescension and a touch of begrudgery for good measure. If you're genuinely not interested in the tour, watch reruns of Munster's greatest triumphs or whatever floats your boat.

    The Lions have the disadvantage of a short time to form combinations. They have advantages in other areas, like a large player pool to choose from. I think it's ridiculous to preordain a run of provincial defeats in NZ by blaming a lack of combinations. By end of the tour, if the Lions haven't got their combos sorted, then something is wrong.

    This craic of "I hate the Lions I wish it was just the British Lions so the Irish lads could get a summer break" is not what the Irish players heading away on tour will be thinking.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19 Reverand_Misty


    Just watching the Hurricanes kicking would make you think Halfpenny is getting closer to that 15 jersey. Really think it could be necessary. Will also play a key part in winger selection.

    Also, saw Sean Fitzpatrick's predicted team and it had a backrow of Scott Barrett, Sam Cane and Ardie Savea. Now I know Kaino and Read are possibly back, but if that back row lined out (or a very rust one containing the other 2) I'd be quietly confident of Lions bossing the breakdown and gain line


  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 43,704 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Just watching the Hurricanes kicking would make you think Halfpenny is getting closer to that 15 jersey. Really think it could be necessary. Will also play a key part in winger selection.

    Also, saw Sean Fitzpatrick's predicted team and it had a backrow of Scott Barrett, Sam Cane and Ardie Savea. Now I know Kaino and Read are possibly back, but if that back row lined out (or a very rust one containing the other 2) I'd be quietly confident of Lions bossing the breakdown and gain line

    Scott barrett is a lock??
    Dunno if he's ever played a game at top level in the back row.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Bazzo


    Savea was an utter nuisance at the breakdown in our second match against them in the autumn.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,196 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Just watching the Hurricanes kicking would make you think Halfpenny is getting closer to that 15 jersey. Really think it could be necessary. Will also play a key part in winger selection.

    Also, saw Sean Fitzpatrick's predicted team and it had a backrow of Scott Barrett, Sam Cane and Ardie Savea. Now I know Kaino and Read are possibly back, but if that back row lined out (or a very rust one containing the other 2) I'd be quietly confident of Lions bossing the breakdown and gain line

    Bit of a small sample size. Hurricanes kicked more yesterday than they have all season. Neither Barrett is above 70% but again, small sample size. With Farrell and Sexton available there is absolutely no need to pick Halfpenny just for his kicking. He's still a very well rounded FB though and I wouldn't be surprised if he was selected for other reasons.

    Scott Barrett is on the injury list now too. They might end up with Laumape at 6 yet!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,018 ✭✭✭Bridge93


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Scott barrett is a lock??
    Dunno if he's ever played a game at top level in the back row.

    Was only through a lack of other options considered. Squire, Kaino, Read and Cane weren't included. I presume Luatua wasn't either ahead of his European escapades.


  • Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭ Maisie Wailing Beagle


    Bit of a small sample size. Hurricanes kicked more yesterday than they have all season. Neither Barrett is above 70% but again, small sample size. With Farrell and Sexton available there is absolutely no need to pick Halfpenny just for his kicking. He's still a very well rounded FB though and I wouldn't be surprised if he was selected for other reasons.

    Scott Barrett is on the injury list now too. They might end up with Laumape at 6 yet!

    I'm fairly sure Sexton has a higher percentage successful kicks than 1/2p anyway at international level.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭shootermacg


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    You're combining those unique characteristics one finds in a small segment of rugby supporters: snobbery, condescension and a touch of begrudgery for good measure. If you're genuinely not interested in the tour, watch reruns of Munster's greatest triumphs or whatever floats your boat.

    The Lions have the disadvantage of a short time to form combinations. They have advantages in other areas, like a large player pool to choose from. I think it's ridiculous to preordain a run of provincial defeats in NZ by blaming a lack of combinations. By end of the tour, if the Lions haven't got their combos sorted, then something is wrong.

    This craic of "I hate the Lions I wish it was just the British Lions so the Irish lads could get a summer break" is not what the Irish players heading away on tour will be thinking.

    Your original post was terrible, further posting just keeps it in memory.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19 Reverand_Misty


    Bit of a small sample size. Hurricanes kicked more yesterday than they have all season. Neither Barrett is above 70% but again, small sample size. With Farrell and Sexton available there is absolutely no need to pick Halfpenny just for his kicking. He's still a very well rounded FB though and I wouldn't be surprised if he was selected for other reasons.

    Scott Barrett is on the injury list now too. They might end up with Laumape at 6 yet!

    I meant Barrett's offensive kicking game, he seems to be tearing teams apart once they get narrow. Like a lot of people are saying, Hogg may start the First Test but I don't think they can really take the risk if they don't trust him there 100%. I do think it could be a bit of a perception issue against Hogg, but HP rarely seems to find himself in positions where he has to make despairing tackles or frantic chases after the ball. All depends on the warm up games I'd say


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Your original post was terrible, further posting just keeps it in memory.

    This adds nothing to the conversation.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭sting60


    I'm convinced we have the best front 8 ever on a lions tour and the All Blacks know this.Kieren Reed " that Irish front 8 are the best and most physical unit we've met in years".They have to be protected come test time and I will continue to post that our squad is not big enough as the provinces will be ultra physical imo.Our back line is very very weak based on physicality against a seriously robust All blacks.


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