Body of Alan Hawe to be exhumed

Messengers wrote: »

I already said depression has nothing to do with murder, as you know well. So no idea how that stigmatises anything.

Good. We wouldn't want the millions of people diagnosed with depression being considered a risk to their loved-ones and the public, so why don't you drop it?

Logic

Let's take a look at your 'logic'.

Depression does however have a lot to do with suicide, this man committed suicide.

You have no evidence this guy was depressed and there's is no evidence that depressed people are more likely to murder their children/spouse. Until you do you should probably stop embarrassing yourself by trying to invent mitigating factors for the murders of Clodagh, Liam, Niall and Ryan.

Do me a favour, before you respond any further, imagine Clodagh was your Sister and Liam, Niall and Ryan were your nephews... try being empathetic with the killer's victims.

You're taking this way too personally.

Messengers wrote: »

I just take issue with anyone who doesn't consider it a mental illness.

Where have I said I don't consider depression a mental illness?

And you say suicide still isn't an indication someone was depressed? Disgusting.

No I didn't. Quote where I even implied this. You're the one suggesting depression was a factor in the murders of Clodagh, Liam, Niall and Ryan.

And don't use the victims here as leverage for emotional manipulation.

I'm not trying to manipulate anyone. It's very clear to me - this family was murdered by thier Father. If it was thier Mother, Uncle, Aunt, Son, Nephew, Niece or any other relative I'd say the same.

At the risk of derailing the thread further I won't be replying to you again.

Yes, let's leave our back-and-forth there. I think you're taking this far too personally.

I think a lot of this thread has been borderline disrespetful to the living relatives and the victims of this horrific event. Each to their own on who the class as victims really. Defining 'mental health' or moreso mental illness, I am sure, to a psychiatrist is possible but to the vast majority is open to personal opinion.

My own opinion is that this man was a psycopath as I am sure we can all agree that it would take psycopathy to commit this truly horrendous crime. That many people in their community and even family were in some way fooled as to this man's true nature would indicate to me that he lacked a conscience, a moral compass, was a selfish individual that would murder his family rather than face his reputation tarnished and for him to be alive to face the consquences of his behaviour. If being a psycopath is a mental illness then he was he was not of sound mind - i dont believe that we can box this as one term fits all as imo a psychopath is miswired somehow therefore is not mental illness in the same way as depression, an illness that has been the cause of tragic murder suicide cases. I dont believe that this case is murder suicide due to a mental illness like depression. But at the same time suicide and the brutal murder of his vulnerable wife and children is not the actions of someone who was of sane mind.

In the interview the sister says that Clodagh was planning holidays and that it seems this attack was sudden and unexpected on some level. That if risk to the children had been suspected that Clodagh would have taken whatever actions was needed to keep them safe - I am wary and aware of making comment on this as domestic abuse has so many forms and emotional/mental abuse is insidious and debilitating for any victim, often more dangerous than physical abuse. I havent read through all the thread so maybe this has been mentioned but he was to be 'outed' and his reputation destroyed - how and by whom? Did he get wind that the family were looking or hoping to escape his particularly aberrant type behaviour? Hence he did the last thing he could do to control his wife and childrens lives. A control freak that would rather murder and then take his own life rather than lose control (more of an issue imo than losing his reputation).

No matter what we may not know detailed facts, what were in the letters and that is probably a good thing for the people close to this. But turning this in to a thread on semantics, defining what can be considered mental illness, whether it is tarnishing the many people who suffer with mental illness and strive to get well etc and not to destroy lives.

I am not that sure i have made a whole load of sense but my gut is telling me that the 'debate' aspect of this thread is somehow wrong. Start a different thread on what constitutes mental illness...maybe it has been done, or discuss whether a murderer who commits suicide is a tragedy or not - i have my own opinions but i dont think this is the place to air them! There is some solace that the body of the murderer has been moved as little as it might be. The full inquest is still to be heard so it is going to be tough for the families and the indeed much of the community and country to deal with in due course. It is one of the most horrible and tragic thing to have happened in this country in my lifetime (that i am aware of) and that i know everyone will agree with regardless of varying opinions on certain things!

Apologies if I sounded like I was trying to chasten above - I think I can just see where people would differ on what really boils down to personal interpretation of certain terms.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Woodhenge wrote: »

I have heard that he left several letters, or at least more than one. That might even be more suggestive of disorganised thoughts or an inability to express thoughts in a coherent manner?

Yeah because nothing like writing letters with forethought and clear instructions indicates a disorganised mind. Why are you trying to find excuses for the killer's actions?

Apparently the killer wrote that his family couldn't cope without him - he should have consulted with Clodagh, Liam, Niall and Ryan before brutally murdering them - I'm sure they'd have had a much different opinion.

Careful now The bit in bold almost sounds like he was having a delusional thought. And some posters are strangely married to the idea that his thinking was crystal clear at the time.

On the first point you say "Why are you trying to find excuses for the killer's actions?". What makes you think anyone is trying to excuse his actions even though nobody even mentioned excusing anything? Even if he was delusional at the time, why would that change anything? He did it whether he was delusional at the time or not.

I find this very telling. His being delusional wouldn't diminish responsibility, but it might make it more difficult to experience unadulterated outrage as it's more complicated than it first seems.  Nobody's trying to interfere with his guilt, but being open to actually understanding the causes might interfere with the venting of maximum outrage. 

Nobody has suggested any excuses for him. It's very strange that this keeps being brought up as mental health would be an excuse for his behaviour. Reality is unfortunately complicated.

theres a difference between being mentally ill and of sound mind...

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It's incredible how many people begin by thinking that if you diagnose something then you're excusing any behaviors associated with it.

You haven't "diagnosed" anything, and nor has anyone else.

I have seen suggestions that he obviously had a psychotic break, was obviously depressed, was obviously a psychopath - but none of these things are obvious at all.

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

livedadream wrote: »

theres a difference between being mentally ill and of sound mind...

Can you explain the difference?  And then explain which you know to be applicable here?

of sound mind means having the capacity to think, reason, comprehend and understand for yourself. the majority of people with a mental illness are capable of comprehending, understanding their actions in daily life the same as you or I, the same as a person with a broken leg knows their leg is broken.
mental illness can be anything from anxiety or panic attacks to eating disorders to schizophrenia.

Legally, having the capacity to think, reason, and understand for oneself.


in general a person with anorexia in the most part comprehends they are harming themselves, a person with panic attacks comprehends that it is irrational and frustrating but cannot control the attack. the same as people like my family member with schizophrenia is conscious and understands they have an illness, they are of sound mind, they are allowed drive and sign legal documents, they wouldnt be allowed if they were not of sound mind.
The idea that people with mental illnesses being manic crazies that will one day crack or snap and slaughter their families with an axe is not only insulting but its down right lazy and it purported by the media on a near constant basis.
I cant comment on which the murderer in this case was as I haven't read or seen any of the letters he left, it will however be covered by the inquest.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

livedadream wrote: »

theres a difference between being mentally ill and of sound mind...

I get that but you're drawing an arbitrary distinction. If a psychopath is 'wired wrong' so can't be classified as mentally ill; would you also say someone whose hard wired for depression is simply 'wired wrong' and can't be classed as having Mental illness?  Can something only be classed as mental illness if it's temporary?

who said he was a psychopath? depression is a chemical issue its not a wiring issue.
actual psychopaths are pretty rare: characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, egotistical traits.
psychopathy has neurological roots so most professionals* do consider it a mental illness the same as ED's or anxiety or bipolar or schizophrenia. *(i personally know someone in the industry who considers psychopathy a genetic condition nature v nurture also plays a huge part and is currently researching is.)

and yes there are such things as temporary mental illnesses.
i think people are confusing mental illlnesses like bipolar etc with a Psychosis, Psychosis isnt a permanent state while it can mean there is an underlying issue it doesnt mean you are a psychopath.
also please bear in mind that mental illness is not treated by many modern MD's as either a treatable chronic illness or for some as a temporary issue- anxiety issues, same as a broken leg, treatment time, you might never run on the leg the same way but you can be fixed.