Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

d2ww · 11-05-2017 09:27PM

Kamila Tight Murderer wrote: »

I think Simon Zebo should have been on the panel. I'm a Munster fan but I'm the first fella to criticise him when he does wrong and while I don't think he'd have been good enough for the starting 15 for the test games, I think he would have been a great starter for the warm-up games and a good sub for the tests. He's a bit light and not a fantastic defender but if you give him the ball close to the line he'll finish it 9/10.

I don't know if this has been done already, but Halfpenny would get my vote for the luckiest guy on the plane.

Erik Shin · 11-05-2017 10:13PM

d2ww wrote: »

I don't know if this has been done already, but Halfpenny would get my vote for the luckiest guy on the plane.

I see your ha'penny and raise you a Gatland

jr86 · 11-05-2017 10:47PM

Lets be honest, Halfpenny is a tremendous Goalkicker, has already been on two tours and was fairly solid (if not overly spectacular) in the 6n. He was always going to tour. Brown has been bang average since the RWC, as much as I'm a fan of his tenaciousness and workrate

In fact, I'd be not in the least bit surprised if Halfpenny was starting 15 come the first test. I can see Hogg being like Shane Williams in 09 - a "certainty" to start before the plane even left, but targeted heavily in warm ups and being exposed defensively

D14Rugby · 11-05-2017 11:20PM

jr86 wrote: »

Surely robshaw and haskell are the next two in line or launchbury depending on who's injured. They prob wont bother calling up any after that, unless 3 guys get injured very early on.

You'd think but if we knew if they had or hadn't been fitted then we'd have a better idea

Clegg · 11-05-2017 11:20PM

The only thing Halfpenny has going for him is his goalkicking. His attacking game is inferior to Hogg's and Williams'. Plus if Sexton and Farrell continue their excellent form from the tee then there should be no chance Halfpenny gets into the starting 15.

Thelomen Toblackai · 12-05-2017 12:23AM

Even taking Halfpenny out of the equation Zebo isn't close to going anyway. Even Earls is probably ahead of him in terms of backs in line for a replacement call up.

bilston · 12-05-2017 12:44AM

jr86 wrote: »

Lets be honest, Halfpenny is a tremendous Goalkicker, has already been on two tours and was fairly solid (if not overly spectacular) in the 6n. He was always going to tour. Brown has been bang average since the RWC, as much as I'm a fan of his tenaciousness and workrate

In fact, I'd be not in the least bit surprised if Halfpenny was starting 15 come the first test. I can see Hogg being like Shane Williams in 09 - a "certainty" to start before the plane even left, but targeted heavily in warm ups and being exposed defensively

It's been discussed here before but you're right the warm up games will tell us a lot about Hogg. The likes of the Crusaders and Highlanders etc could expose him and that could cost him a test place.

I thought Brown was a bit unlucky, but he would have been doing well to make the test team and he may not have taken that too well. But I only see his public persona, unless you know the guy personally you wouldn't really know what sort of tourist he'd be like.

Buer · 12-05-2017 08:24AM

Kamila Tight Murderer wrote: »

I think Simon Zebo should have been on the panel. I'm a Munster fan but I'm the first fella to criticise him when he does wrong and while I don't think he'd have been good enough for the starting 15 for the test games, I think he would have been a great starter for the warm-up games and a good sub for the tests. He's a bit light and not a fantastic defender but if you give him the ball close to the line he'll finish it 9/10.

To quote yourself, he's not good enough for the starting 15, bit light, not a fantastic defender.

If Gatland shares those thoughts, you've explained yourself precisely why he isn't going.

Buer · 12-05-2017 08:27AM

Clegg wrote: »

The only thing Halfpenny has going for him is his goalkicking. His attacking game is inferior to Hogg's and Williams'. Plus if Sexton and Farrell continue their excellent form from the tee then there should be no chance Halfpenny gets into the starting 15.

I would say Halfpenny is the favourite for the test spot at the moment. I think Hogg is going to be hit and miss on the tour and the warm up games are going to be big tests of his positioning and tackling.

Halfpenny is not spectacular but he's a safe pair of hands and Gatland trusts him 100%.

12-05-2017 08:52AM

Buer wrote: »

I would say Halfpenny is the favourite for the test spot at the moment. I think Hogg is going to be hit and miss on the tour and the warm up games are going to be big tests of his positioning and tackling.

Halfpenny is not spectacular but he's a safe pair of hands and Gatland trusts him 100%.

I dunno. I don't watch a heap of super rugby but a lot of the time tackling seems fairly optional.

Buer · 12-05-2017 09:00AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I dunno. I don't watch a heap of super rugby but a lot of the time tackling seems fairly optional.

Optional for them but it certainly won't be for the Lions. If he misses a tackle, he'll be held accountable.

Erik Shin · 12-05-2017 09:22AM

Buer wrote: »

To quote yourself, he's not good enough for the starting 15, bit light, not a fantastic defender.

If Gatland shares those thoughts, you've explained yourself precisely why he isn't going.

Well, he's the best defender if you're looking at the fb options that travelled

Buer · 12-05-2017 09:28AM

Erik Shin wrote: »

Well, he's the best defender if you're looking at the fb options that travelled

It wasn't my opinion, just highlighting that it's a bit odd to think someone should have gone whilst holding the opinion that they have serious weaknesses in their game.

aloooof · 12-05-2017 09:28AM

Erik Shin wrote: »

Well, he's the best defender if you're looking at the fb options that travelled

I'd agree, I think Zebo has improved massively defensively in the last season or so. He's made some amazing last ditch, try-saving tackles as well this season.

He used to have a habit of kicking it out on the full the odd time as well, but he seems to have largely eliminated that from his game.

Buer · 12-05-2017 11:24AM

At the OTB event last night, I found it incredible to hear a point BOD made about the 2005 tour. Not only did himself and Denis Hickie not play a single game together on that tour.....they only trained together on one occasion in the 6 weeks or so they spent in NZ.

What a complete mess of a tour.

swiwi_ · 12-05-2017 11:33AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I dunno. I don't watch a heap of super rugby but a lot of the time tackling seems fairly optional.

I'll be intrigued to see how the Lions tour pans out. Among the many dime-a-dozen clichés is that defense is much better in the NH than in the SH. If this is indeed the case, the Super Rugby franchises will be coming up against irresistible Lion brick walls.

On the other hand, if the Lions leak tries, I'll be interested to get your viewpoint on why that is.

We will have an answer in a few weeks.

(another cliché is that the SH is much better on attack than the NH...again we will see)

Edit: I suppose we could end up with the close scorelines, as the North can't attack but defend well, and South can't defend but attack well...

12-05-2017 11:42AM

swiwi_ wrote: »

I'll be intrigued to see how the Lions tour pans out. Among the many dime-a-dozen clichés is that defense is much better in the NH than in the SH. If this is indeed the case, the Super Rugby franchises will be coming up against irresistible Lion brick walls.

On the other hand, if the Lions leak tries, I'll be interested to get your viewpoint on why that is.

We will have an answer in a few weeks.

(another cliché is that the SH is much better on attack than the NH...again we will see)

The problem is you can't really take much away from a S18 team Vs a lions selection. The franchise's train together daily over months and years whereas the lions will have a month or so to get upto speed on the system that gatland wants to play.

It'd take a few NH clubs going on tour down to the SH to see where the difference really lies and visa versa

swiwi_ · 12-05-2017 11:53AM

connemara man wrote: »

The problem is you can't really take much away from a S18 team Vs a lions selection. The franchise's train together daily over months and years whereas the lions will have a month or so to get upto speed on the system that gatland wants to play.

It'd take a few NH clubs going on tour down to the SH to see where the difference really lies and visa versa

Well that's never going to happen, but I appreciate you getting your excuses in early...

You could argue that the Lions consists of the cream of British & Irish talent, whereas the Super Rugby sides are, well, club sides, but that wouldn't really help the position advanced I suppose.

Will just have to remain one of rugby's Great Unanswered Questions...

sydthebeat · 12-05-2017 11:54AM

connemara man wrote: »

The problem is you can't really take much away from a S18 team Vs a lions selection. The franchise's train together daily over months and years whereas the lions will have a month or so to get upto speed on the system that gatland wants to play.

It'd take a few NH clubs going on tour down to the SH to see where the difference really lies and visa versa

well the sharks have beaten toulon twice in preseason, in france, in 2015 and 2016... at a time when toulon were one of the best 2 clubs in europe and sharks werent play off contenders (2015) and nilled by canes in 2016 qfs

12-05-2017 11:59AM

swiwi_ wrote: »

I'll be intrigued to see how the Lions tour pans out. Among the many dime-a-dozen clichés is that defense is much better in the NH than in the SH. If this is indeed the case, the Super Rugby franchises will be coming up against irresistible Lion brick walls.

On the other hand, if the Lions leak tries, I'll be interested to get your viewpoint on why that is.

We will have an answer in a few weeks.

(another cliché is that the SH is much better on attack than the NH...again we will see)

Edit: I suppose we could end up with the close scorelines, as the North can't attack but defend well, and South can't defend but attack well...

Sometimes I think people in the NH compare Super Rugby to the best of what we see up here (the Six Nations) where defences are extremely miserly.

The reality is the Prem / Top 14 / Pro12 have much more leaky defences.

The other thing about super rugby is that when an incredible try gets viewing numbers up here it's often impressive but with some awful defence.

A picture gets painted and then people see what they want to see.

That said. I firmly believe that Super Rugby and in particular the Kiwi Super Rugby teams are stronger counter attacking teams than most of what we see at club level in the Northern Hemisphere.

This is one area where the Lions as a scratch team will be vulnerable and where individuals will need to make their tackles. Going back to the original point it's something that could be a challenge for Hogg.

CatFromHue · 12-05-2017 12:02PM

swiwi_ wrote: »

Well that's never going to happen, but I appreciate you getting your excuses in early...

You could argue that the Lions consists of the cream of British & Irish talent, whereas the Super Rugby sides are, well, club sides, but that wouldn't really help the position advanced I suppose.

Will just have to remain one of rugby's Great Unanswered Questions...

The Super rugby teams will have had 4 or 5 months together training and playing. The Lions mightn't have 4 or 5 training sessions together for the games against some/most of the Super teams.

12-05-2017 12:19PM

swiwi_ wrote: »

Well that's never going to happen, but I appreciate you getting your excuses in early...

You could argue that the Lions consists of the cream of British & Irish talent, whereas the Super Rugby sides are, well, club sides, but that wouldn't really help the position advanced I suppose.

Will just have to remain one of rugby's Great Unanswered Questions...

Ah I don't think the lions have much of a hope anyway to be honest. If they can catch a franchise on the hop all the better. But it's all comparing apples and oranges

Yeah_Right · 12-05-2017 12:22PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Sometimes I think people in the NH compare Super Rugby to the best of what we see up here (the Six Nations) where defences are extremely miserly.

The reality is the Prem / Top 14 / Pro12 have much more leaky defences.

There are idiots down south that do it too. Last year some idiot in NZ wrote an article comparing the average number of tries per game in the opening couple of rounds of Super Rugby vs the opening couple of rounds of the 6 Nations. A no point did the acknowledge that test matches are very different to club games or that the fields and weather in February can influence how a game is played. The sad thing was the amount of morons that lapped it up.

What you said about the kiwi teams counter attacking is very true. The Lions will need their defensive systems to be spot on.

aloooof · 12-05-2017 02:12PM

swiwi_ wrote: »

Well that's never going to happen, but I appreciate you getting your excuses in early...

You could argue that the Lions consists of the cream of British & Irish talent, whereas the Super Rugby sides are, well, club sides, but that wouldn't really help the position advanced I suppose.

Will just have to remain one of rugby's Great Unanswered Questions...

I think the Great Unanswered Questions debate is part of what makes it so interesting, tho. The Lions and the 6 Nations are imperfect competitions that are steeped in the history and tradition of the amateur era and that's part of their allure, for me.

sting60 · 12-05-2017 02:57PM

The squad is far to small to play all those ultra physical non test matches in NZ.

razorblunt · 12-05-2017 03:01PM

Bloody Woodward and all the sh?te that went on. The best part of the tour was Alistair Campbell getting joxed by DOC.
No wonder SCW wasn't in demand again after that, except for Southampton of all people.

b.gud · 12-05-2017 03:47PM

Are Paddy Powers giving odds on a 10-0 series loss? I reckon it could be worth a fiver

Buer · 12-05-2017 03:56PM

b.gud wrote: »

Are Paddy Powers giving odds on a 10-0 series loss? I reckon it could be worth a fiver

The opening game is going to be a handy enough win for the Lions. It's a scratch team made up mostly of young players who are NPC level only.

The handicap is currently 31 for that game. All other games are going to be tough, though.

buck65 · 12-05-2017 04:15PM

Just reading some comments there, in reality a decently drilled club side can turn over a touring international team. Especially a midweek team.

Munster did it to Australia recently (in horrible weather granted), Connacht beat Samoa, Leicester beat a decent South Africa team a few years back, Munster 2nd team essentially v the Maori.

Tbh I would fancy all the Irish provinces this year against the Lions midweek team so for a NZ club side beating them it really isn't that big a deal.

Systems etc are developed over 2 or 3 months with games, minimal travelling etc.

The Lions really are on a hiding to nothing now in these tours. Australia being poor in 2013 was really the reason they lost, the Lions were average enough too apart from the last test.

The Lions was an amateur rugby invention it is contrary to professional sport much like the Olympics is for soccer, basketball etc. I will watch it and enjoy it but really it means nothing beyond the summer.

12-05-2017 04:17PM

In 2013 you kind of forget they were a Kurtley Beale slip away from losing the test series. The last test Aus were really poor then. I am guessing there'll be 5-6 losses on this tour including the three tests. But I am seriously looking forward to it tbh.

Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

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