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Body of Alan Hawe to be exhumed

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Comments

  • #182
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,172 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    I'd go to mass the odd time and I remember their being a shock about people scattering ashes a while ago and priests saying you mightn't get into heaven if you scattered them anywhere. This was always what I thought was the case.
    My take on it was always you could be cremated no problem but your ashes had to buried in a graveyard.
    My question would mainly be could the family scatter the ashes in the graveyard?


  • #183
    Woodhenge
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 50 ✭✭Woodhenge


    Candie wrote: »
    I have to say it really got to me how the victims were secondary players to the great chap altogether who killed them in the early reporting of the case. Worst of all was constantly referring to Clodagh not by her name, just as his wife.

    The press tried to explain away their lack of mention of her by saying they couldn't get a photo of her, but you don't need a picture to call a victim by her name, not her status in relation to her murderer. It was a slight and self serving explanation.

    I understand the priest was a good friend of the killer, it's possible he was in complete shock too, and if nothing else perhaps the Church should think twice about personal friends taking the lead in funeral arrangements where someone has killed someone else.

    I don't know, that seems to be the normal run of things unless the victim is already well known. If the perpetrator is known they are named first usually.

    I have to say, I found the immediate reaction by some feminists to this crime very unseemly and distatefully self serving. Even now some feel this crime falls under their exclusive jurisdiction, therefore the possibility of mental illness has to be firmly denied. That wouldn't fit the narrative that 'men' just feel 'entitled' to kill their wives and children and this mythically perverse patriarchal society covertly agrees with them. What a time to cash in on propaganda and ideology.


  • #184
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    Woodhenge wrote: »
    I don't know, that seems to be the normal run of things unless the victim is already well known. If the perpetrator is known they are named first usually.

    I have to say, I found the immediate reaction by some feminists to this crime very unseemly and distatefully self serving. Even now some feel this crime falls under their exclusive jurisdiction, therefore the possibility of mental illness has to be firmly denied. That wouldn't fit the narrative that 'men' just feel 'entitled' to kill their wives and children and this mythically perverse patriarchal society covertly agrees with them. What a time to cash in on propaganda and ideology.

    Oh christ on a bike can we please not


  • #185
    Woodhenge
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 50 ✭✭Woodhenge


    Paisleigh Weak Peace wrote: »
    Oh christ on a bike can we please not

    I know, I said the same.


  • #186
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    Woodhenge wrote: »
    I know, I said the same.

    Look up murder suicides in Ireland, look up domestic murders, who carries them out and on who. Do you think it's a whoooole bunch of women murdering men?

    Talking about that in relation to this case is not shoe-horning anything in, or taking advantage of anything to further ideology any more than talking about the dangers of drink driving in the aftermath of a drink driving multiple death is.

    Using the opportunity to get some petty little jab in at feminism is self-serving and distasteful though.

    I'm not getting into it any further, but seriously have a word with yourself lad.


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  • #187
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,219 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Woodhenge wrote: »
    I don't know, that seems to be the normal run of things unless the victim is already well known. If the perpetrator is known they are named first usually.

    I have to say, I found the immediate reaction by some feminists to this crime very unseemly and distatefully self serving. Even now some feel this crime falls under their exclusive jurisdiction, therefore the possibility of mental illness has to be firmly denied. That wouldn't fit the narrative that 'men' just feel 'entitled' to kill their wives and children and this mythically perverse patriarchal society covertly agrees with them. What a time to cash in on propaganda and ideology.


    Sweet sufferin' jesus there is nothing that can't be twisted to fit what some people want to believe.

    There is nothing particularly feminist in being repulsed by the lionization of a killer, or the aversion to referring to the victims by name. Regardless of gender, etc., etc.

    It's about decency, not agenda.


  • #188
    Messengers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 149 ✭✭Messengers


    Candie wrote: »
    Sweet sufferin' jesus there is nothing that can't be twisted to fit what some people want to believe.

    There is nothing particularly feminist in being repulsed by the lionization of a killer, or the aversion to referring to the victims by name. Regardless of gender, etc., etc.

    It's about decency, not agenda.
    In the interest of balance, there were indeed countless pointless articles about him receiving sympathy just because he was a man.

    Many women's rights groups also spoke out against the perceived misogyny surrounding the case so it's disingenuous to say there was never a gender issue being discussed from feminist organisations and journalists.

    I agree it should be about decency and not gender, or agenda, but given the post you thanked above directly contradicts that sentiment I'm not sure you even agree with that yourself.


  • #189
    IvyTheTerrible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭IvyTheTerrible


    Messengers wrote: »
    In the interest of balance, there were indeed countless pointless articles about him receiving sympathy just because he was a man.

    Many women's rights groups also spoke out against the perceived misogyny surrounding the case so it's disingenuous to say there was never a gender issue being discussed from feminist organisations and journalists.

    I agree it should be about decency and not gender, or agenda, but given the post you thanked above directly contradicts that sentiment I'm not sure you even agree with that yourself.
    The articles weren't about him "receiving sympathy just because he was a man". The articles were about the fact that when the news came out, most media outlets jumped to the totally incorrect conclusion that it was the wife that did it, and published articles lauding Hawe as an upstanding pillar of the community.

    Stop turning things into a fupping gender issue when it isn't.


  • #190
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,278 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    Why is it clear that it's a psychotic break? Couldn't it be just as likely that he was a calculating bastard who couldn't stand the thought of losing control of his family and losing his carefully crafted public image?

    Being a victim of domestic abuse is a risk factor for being murdered by your abuser. Not because they have a physchotic break but because they are violent, controlling and abusive. It would be rare that a previously non abusive person suddenly snaps and murders their entire family. I don't know why some people seem so keen to paint this horrible murder as one of those instances.

    Why would it not be both?

    There is some evidence that he was abusive and I'm not discounting that. There is no evidence that he dabbled in murder before this so it's fairly clear that to go from zero murderous experience to entire familial murder suicide, without any kind of psychotic break is highly unlikely.

    Domestic violence doesn't preclude any other risk factors such as mental health.

    The tendency is to dismiss the mental health in order to remove any obstacle to maximum outrage.

    This is a tragedy and there were no winners. Just victims of one kind or another. He was a victim of his own mental health and they were victims of him. I don't feel the need to slag off any of them, even him


  • #191
    Bishopsback
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 981 ✭✭✭Bishopsback


    Just heard an interview with Clodagh Hawe's sister on the local radio.
    Speaking on the Joe Finnegan radio show, shannonside/northern sound radio.
    She says there is no reason for her to believe there was any history or hint of domestic violence in the Hawe relationship.
    She and her mother were very close to Clodagh and she feels they would have known of it or Clodagh would have told them of it, but she believes she would never have stayed in the relationship if there was.


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  • #192
    Messengers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 149 ✭✭Messengers


    IvyTheTerrible wrote: »
    The articles were about the fact that when the news came out, most media outlets jumped to the totally incorrect conclusion that it was the wife that did it

    Stop turning things into a fupping gender issue when it isn't.

    Really? I'm not sure if even a single newspaper accused the wife of this atrocity?

    I'm not turning anything into a gender issue if you read my comment, I even said it shouldn't be about gender. I'm simply refuting the claim that there were never articles MAKING it a gender issue. The Guradian posted a few, and many other papers.

    I'm perplexed that me saying it shouldn't be about gender is making it a gender issue.


  • #193
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Bishopsback wrote: »
    Just heard an interview with Clodagh Hawe's sister on the local radio.
    Speaking on the Joe Finnegan radio show, shannonside/northern sound radio.
    She says there is no reason for her to believe there was any history or hint of domestic violence in the Hawe relationship.
    She and her mother were very close to Clodagh and she feels they would have known of it or Clodagh would have told them of it, but she believes she would never have stayed in the relationship if there was.

    Domestic abuse is a complex thing. Many a person in an abused relationship has never been physically harmed. Emotional abuse and control is a lot harder to spot, a lot harder to admit to.


  • #194
    Bishopsback
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 981 ✭✭✭Bishopsback


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Domestic abuse is a complex thing. Many a person in an abused relationship has never been physically harmed. Emotional abuse and control is a lot harder to spot, a lot harder to admit to.

    I just reported what I heard, I have no clue of the why's of it, but if you feel the need to point to something even those closest to them can't, then carry on.


  • #195
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Bishopsback wrote: »
    I just reported what I heard, I have no clue of the why's of it, but if you feel the need to point to something even those closest to them can't, then carry on.

    Just because the family didn't see anything doesn't mean nothing was going on. And I think putting a hatchet in your wife's head is very much domestic violence.


  • #196
    Messengers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 149 ✭✭Messengers


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Just because the family didn't see anything doesn't mean nothing was going on. And I think putting a hatchet in your wife's head is very much domestic violence.

    I think it's pointless to be speculating given what the family have said.

    Though you're right, your language is a bit unnecessary, to be fair.


  • #197
    Bishopsback
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 981 ✭✭✭Bishopsback


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Just because the family didn't see anything doesn't mean nothing was going on. And I think putting a hatchet in your wife's head is very much domestic violence.

    Agreed.
    That wasn't my point!


  • #198
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Is the only source of the domestic violence claim the victims mother?


  • #199
    political analyst
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,279 ✭✭✭political analyst


    The snide look on Hawe's face in the photo of him with his sons reminds me of Ernst Kaltenbrunner.


  • #200
    Woodhenge
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 50 ✭✭Woodhenge


    Paisleigh Weak Peace wrote: »
    Look up murder suicides in Ireland, look up domestic murders, who carries them out and on who. Do you think it's a whoooole bunch of women murdering men?

    Talking about that in relation to this case is not shoe-horning anything in, or taking advantage of anything to further ideology any more than talking about the dangers of drink driving in the aftermath of a drink driving multiple death is.

    Using the opportunity to get some petty little jab in at feminism is self-serving and distasteful though.

    I'm not getting into it any further, but seriously have a word with yourself lad.

    It's interesting though that people can legitimately get a dig in at the media, the church and even the perpetrators relatives in this thread and no one says getting a jab in on these is "self serving and distasteful". When feminist appropriation of this awful crime is raised however, the response is that criticism of this has no place.

    Is it not self serving and distasteful to use the victims as human shields against criticism?

    There is no post-mortem test for a psychotic breakdown yet people on this thread that have never met the perpetrator and no doubt have no expertise in this area can categorically say he was of sound mind.

    Now we have confirmation from the victim's family that there were no signs or hints of domestic violence yet people still can't fit the facts into the story they want to tell about this event and what it means for society.

    I know it's a very unpopular point of view, but this view that gender theorists have an infallible ability to analyse these events is dangerous and ultimately will keep us from learning any practical lessons.


  • #201
    Neyite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,947 ✭✭✭✭Neyite


    political analyst wrote: »
    Surely, gardaí would have informed Alan Hawe's brothers and their parents of this note before the wake took place, wouldn't they?!

    I could be wrong, but I seem to remember that the notes were sent off to be analysed forensically, so I took that to mean that they were still sealed and went off to the labs before the family or gardai got to read the contents, and I assumed that when the funerals were being planned the contents were still not known and the family and media were treating this as some sort of psychotic break.
    Bishopsback wrote: »
    Just heard an interview with Clodagh Hawe's sister on the local radio.
    Speaking on the Joe Finnegan radio show, shannonside/northern sound radio.
    She says there is no reason for her to believe there was any history or hint of domestic violence in the Hawe relationship.
    She and her mother were very close to Clodagh and she feels they would have known of it or Clodagh would have told them of it, but she believes she would never have stayed in the relationship if there was.

    My mother and family had no idea that my ex was abusive. They thought he was brilliant. Until he attacked me in her house. And even then, it was one of the first times he physically attacked me. Up till that point, it was all verbal and emotional abuse. And up until that point, I didn't even see it as domestic violence myself, because I didn't have the black eye or broken ribs. Abuse takes many forms, and some of the worst ones never leave a mark.


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  • #202
    Messengers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 149 ✭✭Messengers


    Neyite wrote: »
    My mother and family had no idea that my ex was abusive. They thought he was brilliant. Until he attacked me in her house. And even then, it was one of the first times he physically attacked me. Up till that point, it was all verbal and emotional abuse. And up until that point, I didn't even see it as domestic violence myself, because I didn't have the black eye or broken ribs. Abuse takes many forms, and some of the worst ones never leave a mark.

    Sorry to hear that. It's impossible to determine if anything happened prior to the killing though in this case though. I'm going to take the families word anyway, as they were far closer to the situation than anyone on this thread was.


  • #203
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,745 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Woodhenge wrote: »
    There is no post-mortem test for a psychotic breakdown yet people on this thread that have never met the perpetrator and no doubt have no expertise in this area can categorically say he was of sound mind.

    And similarly there are people in this thread definitively diagnosing him as mentally ill despite there being no evidence for that.


  • #204
    Bishopsback
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 981 ✭✭✭Bishopsback


    Neyite wrote: »
    I could be wrong, but I seem to remember that the notes were sent off to be analysed forensically, so I took that to mean that they were still sealed and went off to the labs before the family or gardai got to read the contents, and I assumed that when the funerals were being planned the contents were still not known and the family and media were treating this as some sort of psychotic break.



    My mother and family had no idea that my ex was abusive. They thought he was brilliant. Until he attacked me in her house. And even then, it was one of the first times he physically attacked me. Up till that point, it was all verbal and emotional abuse. And up until that point, I didn't even see it as domestic violence myself, because I didn't have the black eye or broken ribs. Abuse takes many forms, and some of the worst ones never leave a mark.

    I'm really sorry to hear that and I would never try to lessen the damage done by domestic abuse and violence, of any form.
    I hope you are in a good place now and that you never experience the like again.
    I certainly am not trying to lessen what happened to the Hawe family, and was abhorred at it, I live within 30 miles of it and know a few people in the area, I don't know why it happened, nor do the people I know who live beside it, though they don't know the family or connections very well.
    My point was only that to suggest there must have been abuse before this awful tragedy took place is just speculation at the minute, and unless facts come out to reveal there was prior warning or reason for it then it shouldn't be landed on either grieving family.
    I would imagine that their is guilt and grief enough on both sides without added speculation, perhaps adding to their woes already that they feel the could or should have done more.


  • #205
    Neyite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,947 ✭✭✭✭Neyite


    Messengers wrote: »
    Sorry to hear that. It's impossible to determine if anything happened prior to the killing though in this case though. I'm going to take the families word anyway, as they were far closer to the situation than anyone on this thread was.

    I see what you are saying but the likes of the Gardai and their various experts would be better placed to identify if things like this had happened before or not. Often family are the last to know if one of their own is in a relationship like that. Ultimately, the only people who really know for sure what went on in this household, are dead.

    If (and I personally believe it in this case) he was that kind of man, then there will be certain indicators in the language and tone he would have used in his notes left behind, and certain things in the house. Experienced investigators would spot those things and they would add to the overall picture. Possibly the inquest will shed some light.


  • #206
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,278 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    kylith wrote: »
    Woodhenge wrote: »
    There is no post-mortem test for a psychotic breakdown yet people on this thread that have never met the perpetrator and no doubt have no expertise in this area can categorically say he was of sound mind.

    And similarly there are people in this thread definitively diagnosing him as mentally ill despite there being no evidence for that.

    Look st all the accusations about abuse and 'enjoying watching the world burn' (which is basically a diagnosis of psychopathy). You'll see that the evidence is irrelevant when it comes to venting maximum outrage.

    If murder suicide isn't a bit of a mental health red flag, then I don't know what is.


  • #207
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    If murder suicide isn't a bit of a mental health red flag, then I don't know what is.

    I had come to that conclusion already.


  • #208
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Is the only source of the domestic violence claim the victims mother?
    Well she's dead and buried from hatchet wounds so I'd say it's safe to say there's something in it TBH


  • #209
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,278 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    If murder suicide isn't a bit of a mental health red flag, then I don't know what is.

    I had come to that conclusion already.

    If you were looking at the events from a mental health perspective and you saw 'familial murder suicide', you'd gloss past and think 'nothing to see here from a mental health perspective'.

    The first few responses shed light on it. I never mentioned guilt or reduced culpability but other posters assumed that would be the imprecation.

    I don't think his experiencing mental health problems should reduce his guilt, but I think it would complicate the issue and would make it harder to experience unadulterated outrage, which is ultimate what most people use these stories for.

    Life's much more complicated then the simplistic outrage some people seem to enjoy.

    This event was a tragedy from start to finish. No winners, only victims.


  • #210
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    If you were looking at the events from a mental health perspective and you saw 'familial murder suicide', you'd gloss past and think 'nothing to see here from a mental health perspective'.

    The first few responses shed light on it. I never mentioned guilt or reduced culpability but other posters assumed that would be the imprecation.

    I don't think his experiencing mental health problems should reduce his guilt, but I think it would complicate the issue and would make it harder to experience unadulterated outrage, which is ultimate what most people use these stories for.

    Life's much more complicated then the simplistic outrage some people seem to enjoy.

    This event was a tragedy from start to finish. No winners, only victims.

    is there any evidence that he did have mental health problems?


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  • #211
    livedadream
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭livedadream


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    If you were looking at the events from a mental health perspective and you saw 'familial murder suicide',  you'd gloss past and think 'nothing to see here from a mental health perspective'.

    The first few responses shed light on it. I never mentioned guilt or reduced culpability but other posters assumed that would be the imprecation.

    I don't think his experiencing mental health problems should reduce his guilt, but I think it would complicate the issue and would make it harder to experience unadulterated outrage, which is ultimate what most people use these stories for.

    Life's much more complicated then the simplistic outrage some people seem to enjoy.

    This event was a tragedy from start to finish. No winners, only victims.

    is there any evidence that he did have mental health problems?
    in general people are making the assumption that someone of sound mind doesnt butcher their family then hang themselves. its wrong but it happens.


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