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Civil "communion" for 8 year old girl

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    #92
    cursai
    Registered Users Posts: 2,915 ✭✭✭cursai


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    It does?

    Or is that something you just need to keep telling yourself.

    He does. Almost religiously.


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    #93
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,734 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    From reading that it seems educate together make it difficult for kids of religion, on an evening like today it's punishment that you have to stay back. I know there against religious run schools but it seems a bit OTT to punish the kids like that. There only kids and will make up their own mind when there older like the rest of us did.

    But who's making it difficult for them? Certainly not the school who may have children of various traditions, whose parents and chirch are responsible for their religious instruction or not. For example, in the ET secondary school my youngest now goes to there are as many if not more practising Muslims than practising Christians. Do you think the school should make all the children change their school time-table to support the preferences of the Muslim parents? The thinking behind ET is that it is inclusive and welcomes diversity, but also secular in that it does not include religious instruction for any given religion as part of the regular time-table. It accommodates all different religious preferences by allowing them use of the facilities after hours for religious instruction.


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    #94
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,094 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    cursai wrote:
    He does. Almost religiously.

    I never said anything about it annoying religious people. The religious didn't​ invent these ceremonies so they have no right to get shirty if people still want ceremonies without their involvement. The OP is asking about a ceremony which isn't religious so the religious don't need to be concerned


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    #95
    cursai
    Registered Users Posts: 2,915 ✭✭✭cursai


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    I never said anything about it annoying religious people. The religious didn't​ invent these ceremonies so they have no right to get shirty if people still want ceremonies without their involvement. The OP is asking about a ceremony which isn't religious so the religious don't need to be concerned

    They invented communion. And its communion he's trying to emulate.


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    #96
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,127 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    smacl wrote: »
    But who's making it difficult for them? Certainly not the school who may have children of various traditions, whose parents and chirch are responsible for their religious instruction or not. For example, in the ET secondary school my youngest now goes to there are as many if not more practising Muslims than practising Christians. Do you think the school should make all the children change their school time-table to support the preferences of the Muslim parents? The thinking behind ET is that it is inclusive and welcomes diversity, but also secular in that it does not include religious instruction for any given religion as part of the regular time-table. It accommodates all different religious preferences by allowing them use of the facilities after hours for religious instruction.


    Are you of Muslim heritage? Seems odd you'd send your child to a Muslim majority school. It's not really that diverse if 1 religion has a majority especially when it's in stark contradiction to everyday life.
    I don't think I'd want my kids there just so the experience diversity unless their from a Muslim background.


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    #97
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,734 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    Are you of Muslim heritage? Seems odd you'd send your child to a Muslim majority school. It's not really that diverse if 1 religion has a majority especially when it's in stark contradiction to everyday life.
    I don't think I'd want my kids there just so the experience diversity unless their from a Muslim background.
    Not at all, atheist with atheist parents. ET schools often have a bunch of Muslim kids them not having baptismal certs and what not. Non denominational also suits them slightly better than Catholic ethos. Funny when you think about it as in many ways they have a lot in common with the Catholics.


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    #98
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,127 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    smacl wrote: »
    Not at all, atheist with atheist parents. ET schools often have a bunch of Muslim kids them not having baptismal certs and what not. Non denominational also suits them slightly better than Catholic ethos. Funny when you think about it as in many ways they have a lot in common with the Catholics.

    Irish atheist have a lot more in common with the Irish Catholics than the Muslims that's the funny thing.


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    #99
    ABC101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭ABC101


    smacl wrote: »
    Not at all, atheist with atheist parents. ET schools often have a bunch of Muslim kids them not having baptismal certs and what not. Non denominational also suits them slightly better than Catholic ethos. Funny when you think about it as in many ways they have a lot in common with the Catholics.

    I don't have access to all the data, but the main Mosque is in Clonskeagh, so it is possible that the majority of Muslims perhaps live on the S.side of Dublin not too far from this area?

    I believe there is no dedicated Islamic secondary school in Dublin yet, perhaps it is in the process of being built / planning permission etc.

    Therefore various schools in the area of Clonskeagh which are either ET or of Christian ethos cater for Islamic secondary school students. Some have a high % of students who are Islamic.

    The point I'm making is that it may not be the ethos of school, more to do with the proximity of the particular school to where the families / community lives etc


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    #100
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    From reading that it seems educate together make it difficult for kids of religion, on an evening like today it's punishment that you have to stay back. I know there against religious run schools but it seems a bit OTT to punish the kids like that. There only kids and will make up their own mind when there older like the rest of us did.
    It's a day of dress up, get the hair done, feel like a princess, get loads of money and play with your cousins and friends. I know it's done under the "religion banner" it's more than that to the kids though.

    It's no different to kids staying behind for sport or other classes. My son is in an ET and they have extra classes every day, everything from drama to sports, cooking to language. The religious classes would be included in that. My son stays behind three days a week and it's certainly not a punishment. It's fairly rare to get days like today let's be honest. You could say that about any kind of activity, are the kids getting up early at the weekend to play gaa being punished too?


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    #101
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,127 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    eviltwin wrote: »
    It's no different to kids staying behind for sport or other classes. My son is in an ET and they have extra classes every day, everything from drama to sports, cooking to language. The religious classes would be included in that. My son stays behind three days a week and it's certainly not a punishment. It's fairly rare to get days like today let's be honest. You could say that about any kind of activity, are the kids getting up early at the weekend to play gaa being punished too?

    What kids going to stay behind for religion I don't think many would unless the parents insisted.
    All those things were within the school day near me, it's a bit more diverse when you think about it, you get to do it all, cooking was optional but sports, drama (when in season), religion and language were all included in your day.


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    #102
    groovyg
    Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭groovyg


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    From reading that it seems educate together make it difficult for kids of religion, on an evening like today it's punishment that you have to stay back. I know there against religious run schools but it seems a bit OTT to punish the kids like that. There only kids and will make up their own mind when there older like the rest of us did.
    It's a day of dress up, get the hair done, feel like a princess, get loads of money and play with your cousins and friends. I know it's done under the "religion banner" it's more than that to the kids though.

    If parents want their kids to make first communion why are they sending them to ET schools when there a plenty of catholic schools out there that prepare kids for communion during school hours. It's not the schools fault.


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    #103
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    What kids going to stay behind for religion I don't think many would unless the parents insisted.
    All those things were within the school day near me, it's a bit more diverse when you think about it, you get to do it all, cooking was optional but sports, drama (when in season), religion and language were all included in your day.

    And they are part of an ET day too but only to a point. The reality is a school day is only so long and there's a lot to cover. Anything outside the main curriculum can only be a taster. You want to do anything extra to a serious level you have to do it after hours. In an ET that includes religion. To be honest I don't see many of my son's friends complaining, most seem happy to do it. Those who hate it, you have to wonder why the parents are pushing it, what's the point?


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    #104
    Bristolscale7
    Registered Users Posts: 541 ✭✭✭Bristolscale7


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    What kids going to stay behind for religion I don't think many would unless the parents insisted.

    A few after school sessions is a small price to pay for eternal bliss.


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    #105
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,331 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    eviltwin wrote: »
    To be honest I don't see many of my son's friends complaining, most seem happy to do it. Those who hate it, you have to wonder why the parents are pushing it, what's the point?

    That's the social aspect to it. Communion is a family day out and an occasion.


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    #106
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,094 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    cursai wrote: »
    They invented communion. And its communion he's trying to emulate.

    Communion is just a ceremony. It's not particularly remarkable. The OP is looking for a ceremony, not communion.


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    #107
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,734 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    Irish atheist have a lot more in common with the Irish Catholics than the Muslims that's the funny thing.

    You think? Catholics believe in a God, Muslims believe in a God. Catholics believe blasphemy and apostasy are crimes, so do Muslims. The Catholic hiearcharchy is sexist and homophobic but the Muslims are way ahead of them there. Do really want me to go on?


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    #108
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    mar12345 wrote: »
    It would be to celebrate her reaching the age of reason and starting to take steps towards independence...
    Just on the age thing, I suggest that around 8 yrs old is selected by the RCC as communion age precisely because the child is not yet at the age of independence, or able to reason things out for themselves. And just does what they are told.
    If you were going to celebrate those things as some sort of secular "coming of age" ceremony (a perfectly valid idea) it would be more suited to around 12 years old, which is confirmation age in many religions.


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    #109
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    recedite wrote: »
    Just on the age thing, I suggest that around 8 yrs old is selected by the RCC as communion age precisely because the child is not yet at the age of independence, or able to reason things out for themselves. And just does what they are told.
    If you were going to celebrate those things as some sort of secular "coming of age" ceremony (a perfectly valid idea) it would be more suited to around 12 years old, which is confirmation age in many religions.
    The age was selected because at that age children can tell right from wrong. Confirmation is the marking of the end of childhood and the transition to adulthood and the 21st is the traditional start of adulthood.


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    #110
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    The age was selected because at that age children can tell right from wrong.
    I think they can tell right from wrong a lot earlier than that. Toddlers are very sensitive to whats "fair" and whats not.
    If you tell an 8 year old they are signing up for a religion this year, they will just say OK.
    If you say the same thing to a 12 year old, they'll say "do I have a choice?".


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    #111
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,243 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    recedite wrote: »
    I think they can tell right from wrong a lot earlier than that. Toddlers are very sensitive to whats "fair" and whats not.
    If you tell an 8 year old they are signing up for a religion this year, they will just say OK.
    If you say the same thing to a 12 year old, they'll say "do I have a choice?".
    Mmm. Toddlers are very sensitive to "fairness" when they feel they're the ones being treated unfairly. Not so much when they are the ones dishing out the treatment.

    Plus, it's a somewhat idiosyncratic notion of "fairness". A toddler will feel that he is being treated "unfairly" if he is not permitted to "win" a competitive game with an older person (or indeed with another toddler). Toddlers find it unfair if prizes are distributed only to the winners of a game or race - unless they happen to be the winner. If they're not the winner, "fairness" requires prizes for all. And so forth.

    But by about age 7 or 8, children do have a more mature undertanding of fairness; they are capable of discerning whether their own behaviour is "fair" in a way that they just aren't at 4 or 5. What they have acquired in the meantime is a capacity for empathy, which means they can put themselves in someone's else's position. It's not a very well-developed capacity at that age, but it's there.

    As for the gap between ages 8 and 12 that you suggest, I don't really agree. Very few 8-year olds decline first communion, but very few 12-year olds decline confirmation. If you moved confirmation to 14, 15 or 16 I think you'd get much higher refusal rates.


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    #112
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,734 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    As for the gap between ages 8 and 12 that you suggest, I don't really agree. Very few 8-year olds decline first communion, but very few 12-year olds decline confirmation. If you moved confirmation to 14, 15 or 16 I think you'd get much higher refusal rates.

    I'd tend to agree there, at ages 8 to 12 children still tend to largely follow their parents wishes, whereas 14 to 16 year olds are more likely to be questioning their parents judgement and making decisions independently of their parents wishes. I seem to remember reading something a few years ago that in some protestant traditions they don't make confirmation until much later for this reason.


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    #113
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,094 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    There are plenty of valid ages for coming of age ceremonies. Children develop lots of abilities and you could pick 8,12,16 (super sweet 16 party), 18 and 21are all marked in popular culture in one way or another. In Ireland the religious tend to have the monopoly on birth and younger ceremonies (confession, communion and confirmation).

    Either way there's precedent for recognising and celebrating lots of milestones. The OP is in a situation where almost all the other children in their children's peer group will celebrate one of those milestones on one day and the OP doesn't want their children to feel, or indeed be, left out of this coming of age ceremony so they're looking to mark this occasion in their own way.


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    #114
    minikin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,980 ✭✭✭minikin


    smacl wrote: »
    You think? Catholics believe in a God, Muslims believe in a God. Catholics believe blasphemy and apostasy are crimes, so do Muslims. The Catholic hiearcharchy is sexist and homophobic but the Muslims are way ahead of them there. Do really want me to go on?

    Must get one of those 'sweeping generalisation brushes' from Lidl.
    • Some Catholics* believe in a God - a minority.
    • A tiny subset (one fella in the west who doesn't like Stephen Fry) of those Catholics* may believe blasphemy is a crime.
    • I find it hard to believe any Catholics* believe apostasy is a crime, let alone actually recognise it as 'a thing'.
    • The Catholic hierarchy** is sexist - undoubtedly.
    • The Catholic hierarchy** is homophobic - seriously???
      Yeah, they're a total shower of lgbt-hating straight folks, no doubt about that whatsover at all at all Ted, nothing to hide here, those closets in every church?? oh they're confession boxes, that's all ...

    *Catholics = those baptised as such when they were tiny babies without the muscle mass to resist involuntary holy watering. Only a small minority are actually practising/believing Catholics.

    **Catholic Hierarchy does not equate to Catholics*!

    So, given that the average Joe Catholic is as above - do you really believe you have more in common with 'Muslims'***?

    Muslims*** = Qualifying this because realistically I know sweet f.a. about them and their head of the Muslim church on earth.


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    #115
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,243 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The irony is that 14 to 16 year olds are just as conformist as younger children, if not more so; but they conform to the views and expectation of their peers, rather than their parents/extended family. Genuinely independent decision-making comes much later. (And not at all, in some cases;-)).

    Until relatively modern times, we had little understanding or awareness of psychology. Maturity/adulthood was determined largely by physical characteristICs - specifically, sexual maturity. With poorer health and nutrition than today, most people reached physical/sexual maturity round about the 14-16 age bracket, and were then considered to be adults and so fit for marriage, fit to choose and embark on a career, etc. (Louis XIV of France inherited the throne at the age of 4, and had a regent, but this came to an end in 1651, when he was considered to have reached adulthood. He was 13.)

    Note that they weren't considered to be independent adults. This was an age much less individualistic and much more interdependent than ours. So an adult who embarked on an apprenticeship, for example, was adult enough to agree to and to be bound by the terms of his apprenticeship, but dependent enough that his master had a high degree of control over his day-to-day life. A woman of 4 or 15 was adult enough to marry, but not to choose her own spouse. And so forth.

    So, communion/confirmation at 14-16 (both of these sacraments tended to be celebrated at that age) didn't reflect an assumption about capacity for independent decision-making; they reflected assumptions about the capacity to accept obligations, to perform them and to be held to them.


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    #116
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,734 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    minikin wrote: »
    Some Catholics believe in a God - a minority.

    You may want some references to back that up. Even if were true locally, you are aware that Catholicism is practised outside Ireland right?


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    #117
    minikin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,980 ✭✭✭minikin


    smacl wrote: »
    You may want some references to back that up. Even if were true locally, you are aware that Catholicism is practised outside Ireland right?

    Sorry, I thought this was a discussion on catholic* communions in Ireland on boards.ie... my mistake.

    It's a good*** thing that it's practicised outside of the country because it's hardly practiced inside it anymore... hence the emergency top up delivery of holiness they've ordered from Pope HQ...

    *** not a judgement on the goodliness or otherwise of Catholicism.


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    #118
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,734 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    minikin wrote: »
    Sorry, I thought this was a discussion on catholic* communions in Ireland on boards.ie... my mistake.

    Ok, so for openers, how about some references that the majority of Irish Catholics don't believe in God and are therefore in fact atheists?


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    #119
    minikin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,980 ✭✭✭minikin


    smacl wrote: »
    Ok, so for openers, how about some references that the majority of Irish Catholics don't believe in God and are therefore in fact atheists?

    For openers:
    Well they're commanded by their God to keep holy the sabbath day... not much keeping holy going on or are you seeing full churches staffed by plenty of clergy? My reference: reality. I wouldn't label them as atheists in the same way I wouldn't label them as Catholics rather than Catholics* (see above reference). They're humans, end of story.


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    #120
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,734 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    minikin wrote: »
    For openers:
    Well they're commanded by their God to keep holy the sabbath day... not much keeping holy going on or are you seeing full churches staffed by plenty of clergy? My reference: reality. I wouldn't label them as atheists in the same way I wouldn't label them as Catholics rather than Catholics* (see above reference). They're humans, end of story.

    Well, they're Catholics because that's how they choose to identify themselves, freedom of religious identification and all that. If they don't believe in God they are by definition atheists too. While many are very laissez-faire in their adherence to church dogma, it is one hell of a jump to suppose that because of this the majority are atheist. Don't get me wrong, I'd imagine a significant proportion of Irish Catholics don't believe in God, but it is a baseless assertion to categorically state they make up the majority without making any effort to quantify it.


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    #121
    witchgirl26
    Registered Users Posts: 2,106 ✭✭✭witchgirl26


    Ignoring some of the other posts to answer what the OP actually asked.
    mar12345 wrote: »
    Hi,

    My daughter who is in 2nd class will not be making her communion, so we decided to have a ceremony at home to make her feel special too. We invited friends and family, will have a bbq so she doesn't feel left out.

    Have any of you done something like this? I am looking for nice texts / poems / music and songs that would be meaningful.

    Any suggestions much appreciated!!!!


    OP I think it's really nice that you want to make sure your child doesn't feel left out but I would question whether a ceremony is needed at all to make her feel special? Surely the bbq and having family and friends around for a celebration would be enough? Maybe get her a new outfit for the day but I don't think that a ceremony will necessarily work - it may lead to a lot of questions from her about why she had a different ceremony to the others in class and if they were all ceremonies why couldn't she join in with theirs.

    If you do want to go ahead with it - "Oh The Places You Will Go" by Dr. Suess would maybe be a good option. It depends on the meaning you want to ascribe to the day though.


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