Civil "communion" for 8 year old girl

reason vs religion · 08-05-2017 4:30pm

professore wrote: »

Holy moly ... If you want honesty, you sir (or madam) are a pompous ass.

In this instance, supercilious.

Loveinapril · 08-05-2017 4:32pm

professore wrote: »

The part in bold is the difference. Atheism isn't a religion, for me at least, in that there is a dogma to be followed and a sense of "us" and "them" as you get in most religions, particularly minority religions in Ireland. It's not a badge of identity in the same way being a member of a minority religion is. There is no "community of athiests" where we all meet and agree with each other on every topic - if there were, I would run a mile from it. Not trying to attack minority religions BTW ... anyone can believe whatever they want, it's all fine by me, as long as it doesn't force me to believe in it too or follow it's rules.

It doesn't have to be a religious 'us and them' difference though. The religion obviously came into it for my folks in why we did things but I think it is a testament to them in how they explained it to us. It really wasn't made into a big deal. It was just made clear to me that the Jones' did X and we did Y because families are different and choose to do different things. Like, we had dinner in the evening but our neighbours had dinner at 1pm because they chose to do that. It was a fairly simple and clear explanation as a kid. I think kids can handle that.

professore · 08-05-2017 4:33pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Poor old OP.

Life lesson.

There are lots of people out there who like to cast judgement.

There are not many people out there with ideas for a good party for a kid.

Might be time for a new thread.

Yeah could have some readings from Jung and Freud - or maybe Einstein's General Theory of Relativity? I'm sure that would go down a storm

ABC101 · 08-05-2017 4:34pm

smacl wrote: »

I'm doubtless having a senior moment here, but why so?

Emphasis being on Loot. Gave me a great laugh!

Just my personal sense of humour getting it's tummy tickled!!!:pac:

smacl · 08-05-2017 4:34pm

professore wrote: »

You clearly don't have a 16 year old daughter yet!!!! It's a big thing here too now!!!!

Yikes, missed that one too and eldest is now 17. Maybe my kids are weird after all. 18th will be a biggy, though I expect the preferred present from her mum and me would be if we vacated the house for the weekend

professore · 08-05-2017 4:39pm

Loveinapril wrote: »

It doesn't have to be a religious 'us and them' difference though. The religion obviously came into it for my folks in why we did things but I think it is a testament to them in how they explained it to us. It really wasn't made into a big deal. It was just made clear to me that the Jones' did X and we did Y because families are different and choose to do different things. Like, we had dinner in the evening but our neighbours had dinner at 1pm because they chose to do that. It was a fairly simple and clear explanation as a kid. I think kids can handle that.

The difference is though that in most cases here, the whole family and friends still do the whole Catholic communion thing.

My brother and my whole extended family still do all the catholic thing. The priest from your parent's parish asking your kid when they are doing their communion. It's as if your family became atheists and all your relatives and community did a particular ceremony and suddenly your kids are not part of that anymore? It's not the same thing at all. Going to your father's funeral ... very awkward. If I was say Church of Ireland or Mormon, or even a Muslim or something it would be far less awkward - "at least they believe in something".

It would be dead easy to explain to a kid of mine why they are not taking part in Ramadan if we lived in Saudi Arabia. Not so easy if we were of a sunni muslim background living in Saudi Arabia. The kids will accept it, but it's not as clear cut as you make it out to be.

You also have a whole community behind you - not so if you are athiest ...

foodaholic · 08-05-2017 4:39pm

Im letting my daughter make the choice herself
If she wants to make her communion she will have to do the religon classes after school (ET). She knows i dont believe in a god but she is free to decide herself

Her cousin is the same age and will be making hers

If she doesnt want to do it i'll bring her out for the day - Tayto Park or something

El_Duderino 09 · 08-05-2017 4:45pm

daheff wrote: »

I don't understand why people who dont want to be religious go then to the trouble of celebrating religious events in a non-religious way.

People get 'married', have 'naming ceremonies' for children, celebrate christmas /easter times and now a... '

LOL at the idea that religions invented marriage, naming ceremonies, Easter/Christmas or coming of age ceremonies for children.

LOL also, at the idea that someone celebrating their child's birth and introducing them to the family with a naming ceremony is imitating a religious ceremony.

Religions have had the monopoly on these types of ceremonies in recent history which is shown by the op needing to ask for alternatives to the religious versions.

OP it only need to be a coming of age ceremony for the child. In other words it's a BBQ party with children's entertainment as you outlined. You could dedicate a few minutes to make a speech which puts your daughter at the centre for a few minutes. Make the point that you're with her on her journey from childhood to adulthood and she has lots of family and friends who are there to help her/chat/offer advice/share experiences etc. Then back to the BBQ.

smacl · 08-05-2017 4:46pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

There are lots of people out there who like to cast judgement.

There are not many people out there with ideas for a good party for a kid.

Says you casting judgement. Nor is a bbq with the aunts and uncles necessarily the pinnacle of child entertainment even if there is a bouncy castle involved.

smacl · 08-05-2017 4:51pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Then back to the BBQ.

Feckin' hell, one day of good weather and its all about the BBQ. Have to hand it to us Irish, we're nothing if not optimists...

Tombo2001 · 08-05-2017 4:52pm

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Let the sneering continue....

Loveinapril · 08-05-2017 4:56pm

professore wrote: »

The difference is though that in most cases here, the whole family and friends still do the whole Catholic communion thing.

My brother and my whole extended family still do all the catholic thing. The priest from your parent's parish asking your kid when they are doing their communion. It's as if your family became atheists and all your relatives and community did a particular ceremony and suddenly your kids are not part of that anymore? It's not the same thing at all. Going to your father's funeral ... very awkward. If I was say Church of Ireland or Mormon, or even a Muslim or something it would be far less awkward - "at least they believe in something".

It would be dead easy to explain to a kid of mine why they are not taking part in Ramadan if we lived in Saudi Arabia. Not so easy if we were of a sunni muslim background living in Saudi Arabia. The kids will accept it, but it's not as clear cut as you make it out to be.

You also have a whole community behind you - not so if you are athiest ...

Yeah, I get you. My parents had the support of their 'church' I suppose. Their own families were still catholic though. I never felt that community piece as I was in school/ out playing with catholic kids so I always just felt that we were all different in loads of different ways.
And it will be a different experience again when I have my baby as most of my siblings did not christen their kids so my kid will feel 'normal' in that sense. My husband's parents will be a bit different as they are mad into the traditional "but you have to" part of catholicism. I think they are used to me now and have started to understand our choices, although his mother certainly does not agree with them. I think she just knows I won't be bet down.

smacl · 08-05-2017 5:09pm

Loveinapril wrote: »

My husband's parents will be a bit different as they are mad into the traditional "but you have to" part of catholicism. I think they are used to me now and have started to understand our choices, although his mother certainly does not agree with them. I think she just knows I won't be bet down.

Had a bit of that with my mother in-law, but it evaporated very quickly once the first child arrived and she's been an absolute rock ever since putting in many hours of babysitting over the years. I wouldn't be surprised if she gave them her own little kitchen sink christening on the sly at some point, but what harm?

silverharp · 08-05-2017 5:11pm

smacl wrote: »

Nope. Also educate together, about half the kids did communion and the remainder didn't take too much heed of it. The communion kids also had to do extra curricular communion classes which was a big negative. Eldest is unusual in that she has never taken much interest in cash, youngest is a greedy little wench to be fair but wouldn't put up with that nonsense no matter how much you bankrolled her. Also, a wedge of cash versus seeing one of your music idols live on stage is a no-brainer, and IMHO far healthier.

my kids go to a similar school setup not educate together but only about half the class is catholic so religion classes are split, dem catholics go off to have their own prep classes. As it happened they ended up getting invites to parties but wouldnt have mattered either way.

Bristolscale7 · 08-05-2017 5:19pm

Coming-of-age ceremonies predate Christianity.

smacl · 08-05-2017 5:28pm

silverharp wrote: »

my kids go to a similar school setup not educate together but only about half the class is catholic so religion classes are split, dem catholics go off to have their own prep classes. As it happened they ended up getting invites to parties but wouldnt have mattered either way.

One difference in ET is that it was extra curricular, so it wasn't one group of kids going to a religion class and another going elsewhere, it was one group of kids having to stay back for an extra 45mins and the others going home. Proper order in my opinion, but it took a bit of shine off the proceedings for the communion preppers.

jimmycrackcorm · 08-05-2017 5:31pm

Chester Copperpot wrote:

Blow communion out of the water by heading to Disney land

For one day? Also foiled by parents who do communion and then take their kids to Disney in the summer.

foodaholic wrote:

Im letting my daughter make the choice herself If she wants to make her communion she will have to do the religon classes after school (ET). She knows i dont believe in a god but she is free to decide herself

Her cousin is the same age and will be making hers

If she doesnt want to do it i'll bring her out for the day - Tayto Park or something

I think this is the best approach. It's a life experience and if the mass figures for Ireland are any indication, I wouldn't be too concerned about the impact. At the end of the day religion is only about what you practice, not what you are taught.

screamer · 08-05-2017 6:07pm

Coming of age at 8...... a "Fake communion" ....give me a break.

looksee · 08-05-2017 6:45pm

reason vs religion wrote: »

I'm not even sure why I'm responding to your illiterate inanities. Clearly, Westerns celebrate Xmas because not to do so would exclude themselves from a shared national culture; not because non-celebration is in some way intrinsically miserable - tell that to a Muslim. Within a local community, a communion can be just as significant, arguably more so. Hours of class are dedicated to preparation over several preceding months. Usually all the family and close friends are invited. Etc, etc.

If I call a racist a bigot, they might respond likewise by saying, That's not a very convincing argument ("nah nah nahh nahh nah"). My response, as with here, would be: it's not intended to be an argument. It's very much meant as an insult. You might have noticed, however, that the first sentence is a legitimate argument by analogy.

Mod: Please adjust your posting style before posting in A&A again, we don't take kindly to deliberate insults.

cursai · 08-05-2017 7:12pm

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

Coming-of-age ceremonies predate Christianity.

This is a copycat themed communion though not a coming of age ceremony.

Eire Go Brach · 08-05-2017 7:23pm

As an atheist I'm undecided myself on this one. But then again I don't have kids that age.

There are 2 sides to this they way I see it.
1. Parents that hate to see there kids left out.
2. The ones that still want the money (o:

I know one thing. It pisses the religion folk off when we us atheist have these ceremonies.

drunkmonkey · 08-05-2017 7:24pm

smacl wrote: »

One difference in ET is that it was extra curricular, so it wasn't one group of kids going to a religion class and another going elsewhere, it was one group of kids having to stay back for an extra 45mins and the others going home. Proper order in my opinion, but it took a bit of shine off the proceedings for the communion preppers.

From reading that it seems educate together make it difficult for kids of religion, on an evening like today it's punishment that you have to stay back. I know there against religious run schools but it seems a bit OTT to punish the kids like that. There only kids and will make up their own mind when there older like the rest of us did.
It's a day of dress up, get the hair done, feel like a princess, get loads of money and play with your cousins and friends. I know it's done under the "religion banner" it's more than that to the kids though.

cursai · 08-05-2017 7:26pm

If its not real then it won't do any harm. Do you let her believe in Santa or is he fake too.

tooth fairy never stood a chance.

judeboy101 · 08-05-2017 7:31pm

Totally confused, OP. If all your kids friends were having circumsisons would you have a 'civil bris' ?

Cheshire Cat · 08-05-2017 7:38pm

This is about a coming of age ceremony that was very common in the GDR and was often seen as a civil alternative to the confirmation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jugendweihe

Might be of interest to you.

El_Duderino 09 · 08-05-2017 7:50pm

cursai wrote:

This is a copycat themed communion though not a coming of age ceremony.

Communion is just one type of coming of age ceremony. Anyone could see that

gctest50 · 08-05-2017 7:53pm

bobby marley wrote: »

let her make her communion with her friends,

don't project you weirdness on your child

Please explain again how praying works ?

Tiddlypeeps · 08-05-2017 7:56pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

Totally confused, OP. If all your kids friends were having circumsisons would you have a 'civil bris' ?

That's kind of an amusing example because it's not an uncommon thing in the US for people with Jewish backgrounds to associated as atheist but still take part in the cultural aspects of the religion. So you do have people having their kids circumcised and having the parties surrounding that sort of thing despite having zero belief in the religious associations of the tradition.

El_Duderino 09 · 08-05-2017 7:59pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

For one day? Also foiled by parents who do communion and then take their kids to Disney in the summer.

That's summer holidays which could take place at any time over the summer. so it's different to a ceremony which will be taking place for all the religious families on one day

screamer wrote:

Coming of age at 8...... a "Fake communion" ....give me a break.

All the symbolism is there in the religious ceremony. They have another one later with confirmation. I find it hard to believe that some people don't see how it's a type of ceremony that happens all over the world in different forms. The catholics didn't invent it, that much is for sure

One eyed Jack · 08-05-2017 8:01pm

Eire Go Brach wrote: »

As an atheist I'm undecided myself on this one. But then again I don't have kids that age.

There are 2 sides to this they way I see it.
1. Parents that hate to see there kids left out.
2. The ones that still want the money (o:

I know one thing. It pisses the religion folk off when we us atheist have these ceremonies.

It does?

Or is that something you just need to keep telling yourself.

Civil "communion" for 8 year old girl

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