100 gay men detained in 'concentration camps' in Chechnya — read first post

B_Wayne · 06-05-2017 03:56PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

So what we are saying is the concentration camp in Chechnya ( mainly Muslim country ) is bad.
Christians in other parts of the world also kill/attack members of the LGBTQ so its OK that Muslims have laws that say to throw gays off buildings
Because it was illegal in Ireland 30 years ago to be gay & even though we have evolved & made gay marriage legal we should not be bigoted & welcome thousands who's religion is backward & detrimental not only to LGBTQ community but also women, children & basically all our western beliefs :eek:

Great job at misrepresenting.. I, Joey and others condemn homophobic laws and view it to be entirely abhorrent. The difference is we're simply not willing to embrace the far right view of tarring all Muslims because of corrupt theocratic regimes or autocracies.

Irish Praetorian · 06-05-2017 04:02PM

B_Wayne wrote: »

Great job at misrepresenting.. I, Joey and others condemn homophobic laws and view it to be entirely abhorrent. The difference is we're simply not willing to embrace the far right view of tarring all Muslims because of corrupt theocratic regimes or autocracies.

Nor acknowledge the statistical data suggesting that there is a significant level of support for such policies among Muslim countries apparently.

Why is this such a problem for you people? Forget 'tarring everyone' forget 'corrupt regimes or autocracies' why can you not accept that some people in other parts of the world might be homophobic? I mean presumably you don't look at people in our own country arguing for say reparative therapy and that they aren't 'really' homophobic?

Rightwing · 06-05-2017 04:10PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

But if you also look at research done around the world it doesn't paint a great picture

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/27/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

Many others if you google

I don't believe in this type of research (regardless of the topic), usually trying to drive an agenda or force an issue down people's throats.

wakka12 · 06-05-2017 04:13PM

B_Wayne wrote: »

Great job at misrepresenting.. I, Joey and others condemn homophobic laws and view it to be entirely abhorrent. The difference is we're simply not willing to embrace the far right view of tarring all Muslims because of corrupt theocratic regimes or autocracies.

So am I tarring the 98% of young pakistanis who don't even believe homosexuality should be accepted (much less give gay people equal rights) with the same brush? Can I only make the bold statement that muslims, pakistanis for instance, are homophobic once the entire 100% of them are not accepting of homosexuals simply existing?

B_Wayne · 06-05-2017 04:13PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Nor acknowledge the statistical data suggesting that there is a significant level of support for such policies among Muslim countries apparently.

Why is this such a problem for you people? Forget 'tarring everyone' forget 'corrupt regimes or autocracies' why can you not accept that some people in other parts of the world might be homophobic? I mean presumably you don't look at people in our own country arguing for say reparative therapy and that they aren't 'really' homophobic?

I'm happy to call people homophobic, I'm not calling an entire group of people homophobic on the other hand and using that as an excuse to foster hate against that entire group of people.

Irish Praetorian · 06-05-2017 04:14PM

Rightwing wrote: »

I don't believe in this type of research (regardless of the topic), usually trying to drive an agenda or force an issue down people's throats.

It must be so pleasant to engage in debates where you can simply ignore whatever evidence you don't like.

So individual cases of men being beaten to death because of their sexuality by their co-religionists is not evidence enough for you, scientific polling conducted by reputable organizations such as Pew and Gallup is not evidence enough for you, I'm going out on a limb and presuming that the testimony of gay Muslims or ex-Muslims will not be sufficient for you.

Maybe the issue isn't that there is no problem, maybe the issue is you refuse to see it for whatever reason? Perhaps ideological reasons, maybe grievance culture 'top trumps', maybe something else...

wakka12 · 06-05-2017 04:14PM

Rightwing wrote: »

I don't believe in this type of research (regardless of the topic), usually trying to drive an agenda or force an issue down people's throats.

Maybe if it were a religious group conducting the interview or something. But this was by a data/research group with presumably no major bias or agenda behind it

wakka12 · 06-05-2017 04:16PM

B_Wayne wrote: »

I'm happy to call people homophobic, I'm not calling an entire group of people homophobic on the other hand and using that as an excuse to foster hate against that entire group of people.

In case you accidentally call the one in a hundred muslim who doesn't believe you should be imprisoned homophobic?
If you admit that the group as a whole have a problem with gay rights that may go a greater length to tackling the problem overall. But pretending that gay people get on fine in muslim communities, only suffering abuse from the odd bad apple is delusional thinking

Irish Praetorian · 06-05-2017 04:17PM

B_Wayne wrote: »

I'm happy to call people homophobic, I'm not calling an entire group of people homophobic on the other hand and using that as an excuse to foster hate against that entire group of people.

Is this purely a rhetorical exercise or is there actually a Muslim you have in mind who is homophobic? It would gratify me greatly to see you actually put these ideas into action.

That aside, you've sidestepped the issue; no-one is asking you to tar entire groups nor foster hate - what's being asked is that you admit the plain statistical reality that within the Islamic world the polling indicates there is an enormous problem of homophobic views, how is that beyond the pale?

B_Wayne · 06-05-2017 04:25PM

wakka12 wrote: »

Maybe if it were a religious group conducting the interview or something. But this was by a data/research group with presumably no major bias or agenda behind it

Pew Research poll states this.

As of 2011, U.S. Muslims were somewhat split between those who said homosexuality should be accepted by society (39%) and those who said it should be discouraged (45%), although the group had grown considerably more accepting of homosexuality since a similar survey was conducted in 2007.

Have you ever consider that a trend in changing viewpoints will continue? Alienating groups as many people in this thread want to would in more likelihood have a negative effect rather than positive. Also methodology issues were raised in relation to the channel 4 survey. So treating as definitive isn't very accurate.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/15/world/europe/poll-british-muslims.html?_r=0&module=ArrowsNav&contentCollection=Europe&action=keypress&region=FixedLeft&pgtype=article

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/04/12/a-poll-claimed-to-reveal-what-british-muslims-really-think-critics-say-it-failed/?utm_term=.75960439a94b

Help!!!! · 06-05-2017 04:26PM

Here is an example of the main stream media not reporting news that they should
Forward to 2:33 to see the interview

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFjEUNOnjxQ

I think protecting her & others like her & making sure these things shouldn't happen should be our main priority.
Yes I know local people could have done the same but they would be in prison

wakka12 · 06-05-2017 04:35PM

B_Wayne wrote: »

Pew Research poll states this.

Have you ever consider that a trend in changing viewpoints will continue? Alienating groups as many people in this thread want to would in more likelihood have a negative effect rather than positive. Also methodology issues were raised in relation to the channel 4 survey. So treating as definitive isn't very accurate.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/15/world/europe/poll-british-muslims.html?_r=0&module=ArrowsNav&contentCollection=Europe&action=keypress&region=FixedLeft&pgtype=article

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/04/12/a-poll-claimed-to-reveal-what-british-muslims-really-think-critics-say-it-failed/?utm_term=.75960439a94b

Would be nice if it were true for the rest of the world. American muslims seem to be considerably more tolerant than muslim communities anywhere else in the world.

In many muslim intolerance toward gay people is actually growing, trending backwards.In the pew poll I quoted earlier in the thread, the young people in some countries were several percentage points less accepting than the other two older groups which were polled.
% people accepting of homosexuality in 2013
Turkey

18-29 - 7%
30-49 - 9%
50+ - 10% ( a figure i was very very surprised by!)

Malaysia
18-29 - 7%
30-49 - 10%
50+ - 11%

Help!!!! · 06-05-2017 04:39PM

wakka12 wrote: »

Would be nice if it were true for the rest of the world. American muslims seem to be considerably more tolerant than muslim communities anywhere else in the world.

In many muslim intolerance toward gay people is actually growing, trending backwards.In the pew poll I quoted earlier in the thread, the young people in some countries were several percentage points less accepting than the other two older groups which were polled.
% people accepting of homosexuality in 2013
Turkey

18-29 - 7%
30-49 - 9%
50+ - 10% ( a figure i was very very surprised by!)

Malaysia
18-29 - 7%
30-49 - 10%
50+ - 11%

Anywhere that Muslims are very much in the minority they are OK. Thats why we dont have problems in Ireland. Let in the thousands that some people want & things will change.

Rightwing · 06-05-2017 04:49PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

Anywhere that Muslims are very much in the minority they are OK. Thats why we dont have problems in Ireland. Let in the thousands that some people want & things will change.

Indeed, our immigration policies are reckless in the extreme.

end of the road · 06-05-2017 06:48PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

Here is an example of the main stream media not reporting news that they should
Forward to 2:33 to see the interview

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFjEUNOnjxQ

of course it should be reported. but the problem is the dregs of society who will start rioting and beating up all and sundry because "brown and muslim" . if people behaved themselves and hadn't this idea that only refugees rape and other such nonsense then news like this could be reported.

Help!!!! wrote: »

I think protecting her & others like her & making sure these things shouldn't happen should be our main priority.

absolutely. you won't find anyone who disagrees with that and the police have to do their job without favour.

Help!!!! wrote: »

Yes I know local people could have done the same but they would be in prison

and rightly so. the police and courts are the only legitimate forces of justice law and order.

MikeenRonanJr · 06-05-2017 07:05PM

but the problem is the dregs of society who will start rioting

I would have thought the problem, or the "dregs of society" would be the rapists themselves. But shur aren't they only poor refugees..........the real problem is the working class indigenous English who stand against them.

Help!!!! · 06-05-2017 07:06PM

end of the road wrote: »

of course it should be reported. but the problem is the dregs of society who will start rioting and beating up all and sundry because "brown and muslim" . if people behaved themselves and hadn't this idea that only refugees rape and other such nonsense then news like this could be reported.

absolutely. you won't find anyone who disagrees with that and the police have to do their job without favour.

and rightly so. the police and courts are the only legitimate forces of justice law and order.

Mainly done because they see the establishment covering up. If it were 3 white guys kidnapping & raping a Syrian girl, not only would it be all over the media but Muslims would be marching joined by Feminists/LGBTQ etc

Peregrine · 06-05-2017 08:03PM

This thread goes off-topic far too easily. Obviously, Islamic attitudes to homosexuality is related to the topic but soapboxing about Islam in general, crimes committed by Muslims around the world, immigration etc. has nothing to do with homosexual concentration camps in Chechnya. Keep the thread on topic please.

Generalisations and hate speech won't be tolerated. Tone it down.

Mod

Beyondgone · 06-05-2017 10:35PM

learn_more wrote: »

Well I'm sorry but I stand by it. Your remarks re JTP were a personal attack on him, without much intellectual input. The report you linked too says 52% of Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal. That means 48% don't. 48% is a lot of Muslims.

I personally have no respect for religion, major or minor ones. Especially Islam. And not solely for their attitude to homosexuality. Religion to me equates to a poisonous idea of conformism - that everyone should be the same, and if your not, you don't cut it.

So, your strategy is to cut out Muslims altogether, demonize them all, is not a position I admire. I think that attitude is low brow and I'm don't care if your offended. I think you should stop thinking in such simplistic ways.

If you have to walk down a particular street, and I tell you - "It'll be fine, only 52% of the people on the street will have a go at killing you, the other 48% will be unhelpful to you but not assist the 52%.." - How confident would you be venturing out down that street? I also never once mentioned "cutting out" anyone.

I wonder how this thread would play out if the title was "100 Jewish men detained in "concentration camps" in Chechnya"? Or "100" Lesbian women?

There's an odd apathy towards gay men being targetted. Sort of a "sure they had it coming anyway" vibe. How else do you explain the lack of outrage??

Beyondgone · 07-05-2017 12:09AM

B_Wayne wrote: »

You're attacking a poster because they respect the rights of all. Cop on.

Define "attacking". I posted on a discussion forum. I didn't throw them off a tall building or put them into a camp. You may possibly need to redirect your ire. Or as harsher people than me would say, "get real". I'm not much of an "attacking people" person. I'm more live and let live.

tomwaterford · 07-05-2017 12:11AM

Help!!!! wrote: »

Anywhere that Muslims are very much in the minority they are OK. Thats why we dont have problems in Ireland. Let in the thousands that some people want & things will change.

You do know the population of Ireland is several million???

Beyondgone · 07-05-2017 12:17AM

tomwaterford wrote: »

You do the population of Ireland is several million???

You want to edit that. That's casting aspersions on his morality. I'm guessing he hasn't "done" the entire population.

tomwaterford · 07-05-2017 12:25AM

Beyondgone wrote: »

You want to edit that. That's casting aspersions on his morality. I'm guessing he hasn't "done" the entire population.

Have me lost kid??

Is it wrong to say several thousand won't be a majority over several million??

This is primary school level of intelligence....his arguement isn't without merit...but it's hilariously and fatally flawed by the refusel to even attempt ground it in reality,thereby making it pointless and irrelevant

Beyondgone · 07-05-2017 12:25AM

end of the road wrote: »

of course it should be reported. but the problem is the dregs of society who will start rioting and beating up all and sundry because "brown and muslim" . if people behaved themselves and hadn't this idea that only refugees rape and other such nonsense then news like this could be reported.

.

In a thread related to "100 men in a concentration camp in 2017 because of their sexuality which they neither chose nor can alter because natural for them and perfectly acceptable to anyone with even half a brain" - could you explain wtf you are on about with this bizarre post? WTF has rape/news reportage or anything in your garbled response, got to do with this topic?

Beyondgone · 07-05-2017 12:27AM

tomwaterford wrote: »

Have me lost kid??

Is it wrong to say several thousand won't be a majority over several million??

This is primary school level of intelligence....his arguement isn't without merit...but it's hilariously and fatally flawed by the refusel to even attempt ground it in reality,thereby making it pointless and irrelevant

If you go back to your post and add the word "know" then it makes sense. Otherwise, it doesn't. Re read what you wrote. It isn't rocket science.

tomwaterford · 07-05-2017 12:29AM

Beyondgone wrote: »

If you go back to your post and add the word "know" then it makes sense. Otherwise, it doesn't. Re read what you wrote. It isn't rocket science.

Apologises you are correct

Beyondgone · 07-05-2017 12:31AM

tomwaterford wrote: »

Apologises you are correct

It's still wrong Tom. Have another look.

Swappage required. Know do...do know...

Not being a tool and all that, but context is everything.

tomwaterford · 07-05-2017 12:44AM

Beyondgone wrote: »

It's still wrong Tom. Have another look. Swappage required. Know do...do know...

Not being a tool and all that, but context is everything.

Third time lucky :pac: :pac:

Beyondgone · 07-05-2017 12:49AM

tomwaterford wrote: »

Third time lucky :pac: :pac:

They do say 3's a charm.

Rightwing · 07-05-2017 01:03AM

Beyondgone wrote: »

If you have to walk down a particular street, and I tell you - "It'll be fine, only 52% of the people on the street will have a go at killing you, the other 48% will be unhelpful to you but not assist the 52%.." - How confident would you be venturing out down that street? I also never once mentioned "cutting out" anyone.

I wonder how this thread would play out if the title was "100 Jewish men detained in "concentration camps" in Chechnya"? Or "100" Lesbian women?

There's an odd apathy towards gay men being targetted. Sort of a "sure they had it coming anyway" vibe. How else do you explain the lack of outrage??

Don't be afraid. you must meet fire with fire. That's how you handle these situations.

Gay men can be provocative. People generally aren't targetted/jailed for no reason. There must be an underlying issue.

Mod: Banned

100 gay men detained in 'concentration camps' in Chechnya — read first post

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