The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

Demonique · 24-04-2017 11:06PM

AtomicHorror wrote: »

This whole exchange undermines your opinion hugely tbh.

IVF is used for animal breeding. An egg fertilised in a dish and then implanted. Never have I heard of an embryo or fetus being transferred out of one womb and into another, and if that technique existed it would be remarkably risky for mother and unborn both. Far more so than natural birth.

I've heard it happening with horses (allowing thoroughbred mares to have several foals a year), but I haven't been in the horsey community for a long time and don't know how far it's progressed.

But women aren't fecking humans and there's no benefit to transferring an embryo from one woman to another when IVF exists (particularly if there's a risk of the first woman miscarrying before they can transplant to the other woman)

infogiver · 24-04-2017 11:19PM

notjustsweet wrote: »

Well the last line is true. You're too lazy to see beyond your own point of view.

As explained many, many, many times a fetus is a medical term.

There's been more than one person on this thread that is anti- abortion for themselves but unselfish enough to see that other women should be allowed a choice other than the one they themselves want.

Medical terms are used by medical personnel.
You need to hurry up and correct the tennis player Serena Williams who has released a statement concerning her "unborn child ".
She mustn't realise that she's offending people who resent anything other than medical terminology when referring to the delicate subject of pregnancy.
Something must be done.

spakman · 24-04-2017 11:20PM

Demonique wrote: »

me_right_one wrote: »

Even if that means killing someone else's body?

Yes

Wow

infogiver · 24-04-2017 11:24PM

pilly wrote: »

Continue to post crap no doubt.

Well I'm sure we all appreciate your tireless perusing of these forums in your never ending quest to draw posters attention to how very wrong they are.
Keep up the good work.

Demonique · 24-04-2017 11:30PM

LirW wrote: »

I also want to throw in that if there is this strong mentality of pro-life, why don't they actually fight for easier access to permanent birth control solutions for women? All women get for wanting her tubes to be tied is being belittled, unless she hits a certain age (that is in fact quite high) or has quadrillion kids.
Also it's proven by now that a lot of women suffer some form of negative side effect from hormonal birth control, but they still have to put up with it, especially in long term relationships because there is a lack of options and permanent solutions are usually met with hesitation from doctors. In that case men have it a bit easier to get a vasectomy.
Before I had my daughter 2 months ago, it happened a few times to me that midwives, doctors and people were telling me "oh, you'll change your mind, see you in a few years". Oh absolutely not, I have two, two is fine, in fact I'm done. I by the way got refused for tubal ligation straight when I asked for it in the hospital.

For the fact, that people are screaming for every precious life, where is the awareness to not let that happen in the first place?

Also why is there never a talk about some kind of a "compromise?" In a lot of countries on the mainland, abortion is technically illegal but brought in the system that it's not illegal until you're full 12 weeks pregnant (In cases of foetal abnormalities you can terminate a pregnancy up until week 25 or so).

There are quite a few pro-lifers who believe that babies are a gift from god and using birth control is refusing god's gift and is therefore bad.

Zaph · 24-04-2017 11:38PM

ricero wrote: »

Liberals are trying to ruin this countries morality. I for one will not vote in abortion to be used as a easy fix for hussies who forget to use contraception

What about those hussies who do use contraception but it fails?

PopePalpatine · 24-04-2017 11:40PM

farmer john8 wrote: »

if the scumbag lefty liberals want to abort their own children they can go right ahead and jump on a ferry to the uk and on the way back jump off.they wont dictate to the ordinary decent people of ireland

You got the "ordinary decent people of Ireland" mixed up there. :pac:

infogiver · 24-04-2017 11:45PM

Demonique wrote: »

There are quite a few pro-lifers who believe that babies are a gift from god and using birth control is refusing god's gift and is therefore bad.

Are many of these "Gods gift" pro-lifers posting in this thread?
I can't see them at all.

njs030 · 24-04-2017 11:48PM

infogiver wrote: »

Medical terms are used by medical personnel.
You need to hurry up and correct the tennis player Serena Williams who has released a statement concerning her "unborn child ".
She mustn't realise that she's offending people who resent anything other than medical terminology when referring to the delicate subject of pregnancy.
Something must be done.

Are you going to add anything of use or just correct people, make assumptions and judge others?
Or are you in your own words "too lazy" to do anything else?

No one here is offended by terminology other than you, you've been banging on about it since Saturday and I've simply explained why people use the term.
Is it really to hard for you to understand people use different words in life?

I won't be responding to your silly little comments anymore, they add nothing to the discussion and it's repetitive and boring at this stage.

January · 24-04-2017 11:54PM

Zaph wrote: »

What about those hussies who do use contraception but it fails?

Absolutely no point in arguing with people who speak like that. The answer is no doubt that they should face up to their responsibilities sure they had sex what do they expect

pilly · 24-04-2017 11:55PM

infogiver wrote:

Well I'm sure we all appreciate your tireless perusing of these forums in your never ending quest to draw posters attention to how very wrong they are. Keep up the good work.

Ah you're welcome.

AtomicHorror · 25-04-2017 12:02AM

A Little Pony wrote: »

ricero wrote: »

Liberals are trying to ruin this countries morality. I for one will not vote in abortion to be used as a easy fix for hussies who forget to use contraception

Fully agree. People don't like personal responsibility in society now. It's everyone else fault now.

Slave moralists. Pitiable.

What is morality if it is laid out for you in a set of rigid rules and laws? In what way is following such rules- regardless of context- "taking responsibility"?

You are both afraid of the responsibility of figuring out right from wrong without a guidebook. You need immutable laws, not so that you can take responsibility, but so that the hard choices never had to be made. Just obeying the law, just following orders.

The "hussies" who have to make the hard choices about their pregnancy, health and life are the ones taking personal responsibility, the ones taking the time to really weigh the morality of circumstances that they alone can fully appraise. And they are the ones who will have to live with the full consequences.

I doubt either of you could take responsibility for picking desert from a menu.

AtomicHorror · 25-04-2017 12:05AM

Woodville56 wrote: »

So now abortion is being suggested as saving a defenseless newborn baby an uncertain childhood by killing it in the womb? Such a disingenuous argument , when the real reason is about getting rid of an unwanted pregnancy ?

"Now"? Where have you been? Abortion has always been about more than just stopping a pregnancy.

Is this your first abortion debate or are you playing incredulous?

professore · 25-04-2017 12:07AM

For me it was discussing it with my wife and she says at 12 weeks she could feel the baby moving inside her and couldn't understand how anyone in good conscience could have an abortion at that stage. That kind of clinched it for me. And we are both stainch atheists that believe assisted suicide should be legal. No amount of medical terminology will convince me otherwise. 8 weeks max I think.

osarusan · 25-04-2017 12:10AM

me_right_one wrote: »

Even if that means killing someone else's body?

Demonique wrote: »

Yes

Do you put a time limit on their right to evict somebody else's body from their body?

And does "evict" always involve death?

AtomicHorror · 25-04-2017 12:10AM

spakman wrote: »

But a lot of people want abortions not only when it's a necessity, but when it's inconvenient for them to have a baby.

I think "inconvenient" is a pretty woolly term. I've heard people describe their own terminal illnesses as "inconvenient". I think you're also expecting a lot of our ability to ever meaningfully know the true motives of a mother.

spakman wrote: »

I don't understand how people can square this in their conscience - they've wilfully ended the life of their child/foetus. I'm not at all religious but ethically, morally, that is just wrong.

I wouldn't do it either, but if someone else can and feels they need to, I respect their right to make the choice.

AtomicHorror · 25-04-2017 12:19AM

professore wrote: »

For me it was discussing it with my wife and she says at 12 weeks she could feel the baby moving inside her and couldn't understand how anyone in good conscience could have an abortion at that stage. That kind of clinched it for me. And we are both stainch atheists that believe assisted suicide should be legal. No amount of medical terminology will convince me otherwise. 8 weeks max I think.

My wife is into the last month of her second pregnancy now- she's delighted with the CA recommendations. She has fully wanted both pregnancies, but she hates the thought of being forced into carrying to term if she felt she needed to end a pregnancy.

Should she be denied that right because it isn't what you feel comfortable with? I can assure you she's a woman of very good conscience.

spakman wrote: »

Oh come on, a sperm or an egg on their own are not and cannot become a human being. But when the sperm has the fertilised the egg, it's a different story.

Not a very different one. A zygote needs a receptive womb lining and a whole host of other conditions, time and a lot of luck or it cannot become a human being. About 50% of zygotes never do.

farmer john8 wrote: »

if the scumbag lefty liberals want to abort their own children they can go right ahead and jump on a ferry to the uk and on the way back jump off.they wont dictate to the ordinary decent people of ireland

Decent people don't will people to throw themselves into the sea.

njs030 · 25-04-2017 12:30AM

professore wrote: »

For me it was discussing it with my wife and she says at 12 weeks she could feel the baby moving inside her and couldn't understand how anyone in good conscience could have an abortion at that stage. That kind of clinched it for me. And we are both stainch atheists that believe assisted suicide should be legal. No amount of medical terminology will convince me otherwise. 8 weeks max I think.

12 weeks is incredibly early to feel kicks, that's very rare! A genius perhaps??!
That's nice for you and your wife and I'm really glad you have lovely memories and each other to share it with.

Knowing that, can you imagine how hard a decision it must be for anyone who has to make it then? It must be utterly heart breaking and they would have good reasons.
Not the "inconvenience" that's thrown around but something private and personal to them.
On top of that should they then have to travel to another country and face shame and misery or have to hide it?

While we'd hope every pregnancy is the lovely hopeful experience your wife had perhaps we could be understanding of the women who aren't that lucky?
You can say "I would do x" while understanding people in terrible situations might have to do y and allowing them the choice.

Demonique · 25-04-2017 12:37AM

cinnamony wrote: »

I am pro choice but I must admit I'm not sure as to what extent the accidental pregnancy/contraception failed excuse holds in a country like Ireland.

You are usually recommended to use 2 forms of contraception and from what I know (please correct me if I am wrong) contraceptive pills/shots implants etc... are not only easily available but free on the medical card.
Condoms are easily available too in stores etc..

So in these cases I'm not sure if there's a pro choice argument to be made barr that people should be able to do what they want with their bodies..

It took me years to be able to convince my doctor to be prescribe me the pill though

Arghus · 25-04-2017 03:39AM

I predict that within a very short space of time the majority of posts in this thread will be by users who have seemingly just recently joined Boards, but seem oddly familiar with it...

Zubeneschamali · 25-04-2017 06:03AM

farmer john8 wrote: »

.they wont dictate to the ordinary decent people of ireland

Yes, we will, just like we did on gay marriage, divorce, travel and info for abortions.

And contrary to all the reactionary scaremongering at the time, society did not end when we legalized those, either.

NuMarvel · 25-04-2017 07:04AM

ricero wrote: »

Liberals are trying to ruin this countries morality. I for one will not vote in abortion to be used as a easy fix for hussies who forget to use contraception

If more anti-repealers were this honest, the 8th would have been gone long ago.

(And what's ironic is that the 8th was first proposed by a group of people who were staunchly anti-contraception.)

January · 25-04-2017 07:32AM

notjustsweet wrote: »

12 weeks is incredibly early to feel kicks, that's very rare! A genius perhaps??!
That's nice for you and your wife and I'm really glad you have lovely memories and each other to share it with.

Knowing that, can you imagine how hard a decision it must be for anyone who has to make it then? It must be utterly heart breaking and they would have good reasons.
Not the "inconvenience" that's thrown around but something private and personal to them.
On top of that should they then have to travel to another country and face shame and misery or have to hide it?

While we'd hope every pregnancy is the lovely hopeful experience your wife had perhaps we could be understanding of the women who aren't that lucky?
You can say "I would do x" while understanding people in terrible situations might have to do y and allowing them the choice.

It's not early to feel movement on second or subsequent pregnancies. Once you.know what it feels like it's pretty easy to notice it earlier second/third etc time round. I've had 5 pregnancies and I felt movement around 18 weeks on my first, on the others I could feel it earlier. (Only when lying down relaxing though).

Woodville56 · 25-04-2017 08:30AM

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Woodville56 wrote: »

So now abortion is being suggested as saving a defenseless newborn baby an uncertain childhood by killing it in the womb? Such a disingenuous argument , when the real reason is about getting rid of an unwanted pregnancy ?

"Now"? Where have you been? Abortion has always been about more than just stopping a pregnancy.

Is this your first abortion debate or are you playing incredulous?

Thanks for pulling me up on my grammatical emphasis there regarding use of the word "now ". It's use was to emphasize that, to me, the proposition (that aborting a foetus was saving the would be child from a possible difficult or uncertain childhood) was new here. You're right , it's always been about stopping a pregnancy for whatever reason , but implying that it's for the unborn's benefit vis a vis it's future life chances is really pushing it. And yes , you're also right I rarely contribute to the abortion debate here, my stance on the issue is firmly opposed to the introduction of liberalized "on demand" abortion, so I'm not inclined to indulge the abuse and intolerance meted out here ( on both sides of the argument ) by getting involved further.
So suitably chastised for my grammatical emphasis and for daring to enter a debate where I'm not a prolific opinionist, I'll just go and sit in the corner and say nothing.

Akrasia · 25-04-2017 09:20AM

Woodville56 wrote: »

So now abortion is being suggested as saving a defenseless newborn baby an uncertain childhood by killing it in the womb? Such a disingenuous argument , when the real reason is about getting rid of an unwanted pregnancy ?

Abortion is, and always has been, about terminating unwanted pregnancies, or in more tragic circumstances, ending pregnancies where there are complications.

It is the 'pro life' people here who have introduced the idea of 'irresponsible hussies' who need to 'take responsibility' for their actions. I merely pointed out that it is ridiculous to suggest that forcing someone to have a baby is a good way to instill responsibility in someone who you already have judged to be irresponsible.

pilly · 25-04-2017 09:26AM

I know I'm going to be sorry for this post but I have been thinking about something.

I am pro-choice but if legislation is passed to allow abortion in all circumstances how is it going to be paid for and do our hospitals have the capacity even to meet demand.

My opinion on it would be that people who need abortion for medical reasons, absolutely it should be free but for those that chose it they should have to pay.

kunst nugget · 25-04-2017 09:31AM

pilly wrote: »

I know I'm going to be sorry for this post but I have been thinking about something.

I am pro-choice but if legislation is passed to allow abortion in all circumstances how is it going to be paid for and do our hospitals have the capacity even to meet demand.

My opinion on it would be that people who need abortion for medical reasons, absolutely it should be free but for those that chose it they should have to pay.

Can't see any problem with that myself.

Akrasia · 25-04-2017 09:36AM

professore wrote: »

For me it was discussing it with my wife and she says at 12 weeks she could feel the baby moving inside her and couldn't understand how anyone in good conscience could have an abortion at that stage. That kind of clinched it for me. And we are both stainch atheists that believe assisted suicide should be legal. No amount of medical terminology will convince me otherwise. 8 weeks max I think.

Nobody would force you to have an abortion, but 'feeling' that the foetus is moving in a pregnancy that she obviously wanted is probably very different to feeling a foetus moving in a pregnancy that is unwanted.

Your wife might have felt the baby moving at 12 weeks. The 'quickening' in a pregnancy doesn't usually happen before 16 weeks, and may not happen until 25 weeks. Its possible she might have felt something at around 13 weeks, but the foetus isn't really doing much moving at that stage.

And anyway, movement in a foetus does not mean that there is any functioning brain or any thoughts or mind or personhood present in the foetus.

What is the moral difference between an 8 week foetus and a 12 week foetus other than size and the fact that it looks and moves more like a human. Neither has anything even approaching a functioning brain capable of having even a single thought or awareness of it's surroundings.

LirW · 25-04-2017 10:14AM

pilly wrote: »

I know I'm going to be sorry for this post but I have been thinking about something.

I am pro-choice but if legislation is passed to allow abortion in all circumstances how is it going to be paid for and do our hospitals have the capacity even to meet demand.

My opinion on it would be that people who need abortion for medical reasons, absolutely it should be free but for those that chose it they should have to pay.

It might would be implied like in Austria, you can avail of abortion in Austria up to 12 weeks but the elective ones can't be performed in any clinic. You have to pay for the procedure yourself. Also up to 6 or 8 weeks, I'm not sure, you're getting a pill that cleans you out.

Woodville56 · 25-04-2017 10:16AM

pilly wrote: »

I know I'm going to be sorry for this post but I have been thinking about something.

I am pro-choice but if legislation is passed to allow abortion in all circumstances how is it going to be paid for and do our hospitals have the capacity even to meet demand.

My opinion on it would be that people who need abortion for medical reasons, absolutely it should be free but for those that chose it they should have to pay.

With you on that 100%. Problem is though how to define "medical reasons" - my definition would be where the life of the mother is endangered or sadly in the case of fatal feotal abnormalities, but I'm sure those who want a more liberal regime will argue much broader interpretations of "medical reasons".
On the question of funding abortions in our hospitals , as someone who unequivocally opposes a totally liberalized abortion regime as those in the Citizens Assembly suggest, I wouldn't be happy to see my taxes used to fund "on demand" abortion procedures either.

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

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