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The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

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Comments

  • #662
    Woodville56
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Woodville56


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Game Face MCGee wrote: »
    I really can't get my head around this whole debate.
    I've no religious affiliation and I'm a father of 3
    I can totally see why people want abortions, be it economic, not the right time, situational etc... I totally get why a woman would consider it as a solution. I'm logical in my though process.
    but I genuinely get a real pang or guilt or sadness when I think about the child/fetus (whatever side of the fence you sit) being terminated. I just cant shake it, and when people "celebrate" and are "overjoyed" about getting closer to legal abortion I just feel upset and think "how can you be so happy about this"
    not sure if I'm in the minority on this??

    Yes, there most certainly is an element of hubris in the Repeal the 8th movement, just like there was in the same-sex marriage campaign. It does go over-the-top with the "celebrate" and "overjoyed". That disappoints, sickens and saddens me too. However, that doesn't mean their message is wrong.

    Like you, I am a father of 3. I will be voting to replace the 8th Amendment. It is a very stupid amendment which has caused huge problems both legally and socially. The sooner it is gone, the better.

    What should replace it? That is a matter for the Oireachtas to decide.

    That's what worries me - politicians will sell their souls for a Dail pension if they think theres votes in abortion , besides if a leftist group hold a balance of power in a future Dail and demand a liberal abortion regime, what chance FG/FF to oblige ?
    Already FG/FF/SF getting all mouthy about an early referendum. Mother of all divisive debate to follow


  • #663
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Woodville56 wrote: »
    That's what worries me - politicians will sell their souls for a Dail pension if they think theres votes in abortion , besides if a leftist group hold a balance of power in a future Dail and demand a liberal abortion regime, what chance FG/FF to oblige ?
    Already FG/FF/SF getting all mouthy about an early referendum. Mother of all divisive debate to follow

    What is worse is another amendment that has multiple unforeseen consequences, just like the last one.


  • #664
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    pilly wrote: »
    I think you definitely pointed out the blatantly obvious info, come on now. :rolleyes:

    Someone saying "people" does not signify 100% of the population. There was absolutely no need for you to point this out.

    Pilly what would we do if we didn't have you to point out where we go wrong in our posting.


  • #665
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    eviltwin wrote: »
    ... it's because I'm a parent that I'm pro choice. I want my daughter to have the opportunity to have full control of when she becomes a mother..

    You say this as if those who are pro life have no regard for your daughter, but they do, and did so long before most of society began to. Let's not forget: most of those with pro choice beliefs would wish that it were legal for you to have been legally able to kill her, still her heartbeat and have her broken remains pulled from you and binned, and up to almost two thirds way through her development in your womb too. So while it's commendable that you want her empowered with a choice that you never had, in your own country at least, it's worth remembering that some of us had concern for her when she was at her most vulnerable and didn't feel that whether she lived or died should be at the mercy of another.

    As for FFA...yes, hopefully abortions for those particular situations will be made legal here, should've been so long ago.


  • #666
    spakman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,289 ✭✭✭spakman


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    Game Face MCGee wrote: »
    I really can't get my head around this whole debate.
    I've no religious affiliation and I'm a father of 3
    I can totally see why people want abortions, be it economic, not the right time, situational etc... I totally get why a woman would consider it as a solution. I'm logical in my though process.
    but I genuinely get a real pang or guilt or sadness when I think about the child/fetus (whatever side of the fence you sit) being terminated. I just cant shake it, and when people "celebrate" and are "overjoyed" about getting closer to legal abortion I just feel upset and think "how can you be so happy about this"
    not sure if I'm in the minority on this??

    Probably not, but do you not think you're conflating some stuff here? We can feel sad for the necessity of a given abortion or abortions generally but be happy that women will no longer need to fear the intrusion of the state into their health and life.

    But a lot of people want abortions not only when it's a necessity, but when it's inconvenient for them to have a baby.
    I don't understand how people can square this in their conscience - they've wilfully ended the life of their child/foetus. I'm not at all religious but ethically, morally, that is just wrong.


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  • #667
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,914 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    infogiver wrote: »
    Pilly what would we do if we didn't have you to point out where we go wrong in our posting.

    there was nothing with the post you "corrected". the problem was with your assumption as to what it said.


  • #668
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,914 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    spakman wrote: »
    But a lot of people want abortions not only when it's a necessity, but when it's inconvenient for them to have a baby.
    I don't understand how people can square this in their conscience - they've wilfully ended the life of their child/foetus. I'm not at all religious but ethically, morally, that is just wrong.

    that is something for people to resolve with their own conscience.


  • #669
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,223 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Outlaw Pete wrote: »
    You say this as if those who are pro life have no regard for your daughter, but they do, and did so long before most of society began to. Let's not forget: most of those with pro choice beliefs would wish that it were legal for you to have been legally able to kill her, still her heartbeat and have her broken remains pulled from you and binned, and up to almost two thirds way through her development in your womb too. So while it's commendable that you want her empowered with a choice that you never had, in your own country at least, it's worth remembering that some of us had concern for her when she was at her most vulnerable and didn't feel that whether she lived or died should be at the mercy of another.
    She was even more vulnerable when she was sperm travelling to the egg before fertilisation.

    There are millions of things that could have happened to stop a potential person from being born. The fact of our own birth is unbelievable if you think about how many circumstances had to have been just right.

    If I had never been born, someone else probably would have been born instead of me. (my parents planned my birth) By my being alive, I have robbed countless potential siblings from a potential existence.

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • #670
    spakman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,289 ✭✭✭spakman


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Outlaw Pete wrote: »
    You say this as if those who are pro life have no regard for your daughter, but they do, and did so long before most of society began to. Let's not forget: most of those with pro choice beliefs would wish that it were legal for you to have been legally able to kill her, still her heartbeat and have her broken remains pulled from you and binned, and up to almost two thirds way through her development in your womb too. So while it's commendable that you want her empowered with a choice that you never had, in your own country at least, it's worth remembering that some of us had concern for her when she was at her most vulnerable and didn't feel that whether she lived or died should be at the mercy of another.
    She was even more vulnerable when she was sperm travelling to the egg before fertilisation.

    There are millions of things that could have happened to stop a potential person from being born. The fact of our own birth is unbelievable if you think about how many circumstances had to have been just right.

    If I had never been born, someone else probably would have been born instead of me. (my parents planned my birth) By my being alive, I have robbed countless potential siblings from a potential existence.

    Oh come on, a sperm or an egg on their own are not and cannot become a human being. But when the sperm has the fertilised the egg, it's a different story.
    You're right that there are many ways and reasons why that pregnancy may not be successful, but that's nature and not a wilful act.
    Abortion is very much a deliberate act to kill that foetus, so it's not comparable to a miscarriage!


  • #671
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,223 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    spakman wrote: »
    But a lot of people want abortions not only when it's a necessity, but when it's inconvenient for them to have a baby.
    I don't understand how people can square this in their conscience - they've wilfully ended the life of their child/foetus. I'm not at all religious but ethically, morally, that is just wrong.
    Do you agree with the morning after pill?

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



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  • #672
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    spakman wrote: »
    Oh come on, a sperm or an egg on their own are not and cannot become a human being. But when the sperm has the fertilised the egg, it's a different story.
    You're right that there are many ways and reasons why that pregnancy may not be successful, but that's nature and not a wilful act.
    Abortion is very much a deliberate act to kill that foetus, so it's not comparable to a miscarriage!

    If you can get your head around the mental gymnastics required to detach yourself from what you are quite rightly describing as a "deliberate act to kill", then you could start to see this whole issue as the pro "choice" advocates do.
    I've established that it starts with perscapacity.
    You can't say "pro abortion " it has to be "pro choice "
    Your not having an abortion, your terminating a pregnancy.
    Even a 40 week gestation baby is a foetus.
    24 weeks gestation babies are "clumps of cells".
    I'm too lazy for the mental gymnastics, me.


  • #673
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,223 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    spakman wrote: »
    Oh come on, a sperm or an egg on their own are not and cannot become a human being. But when the sperm has the fertilised the egg, it's a different story.
    You're right that there are many ways and reasons why that pregnancy may not be successful, but that's nature and not a wilful act.
    Abortion is very much a deliberate act to kill that foetus, so it's not comparable to a miscarriage!
    A foetus is not yet a person, neither is a blastocyst or a zygote.

    You might consider it immoral to end the foetal development before it has a chance to develop into a person, I think it is immoral to force a woman to be a mother if she does not want to be one.

    Family planning is essential for a modern egalitarian civilised society.

    I would like children to be born into homes where they are wanted and loved, and the parents have the desire and means and skills to provide a good home for them.

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • #674
    njs030
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭njs030


    infogiver wrote: »
    If you can get your head around the mental gymnastics required to detach yourself from what you are quite rightly describing as a "deliberate act to kill", then you could start to see this whole issue as the pro "choice" advocates do.
    I've established that it starts with perscapacity.
    You can't say "pro abortion " it has to be "pro choice "
    Your not having an abortion, your terminating a pregnancy.
    Even a 40 week gestation baby is a foetus.
    24 weeks gestation babies are "clumps of cells".
    I'm too lazy for the mental gymnastics, me.

    Well the last line is true. You're too lazy to see beyond your own point of view.

    As explained many, many, many times a fetus is a medical term.

    There's been more than one person on this thread that is anti- abortion for themselves but unselfish enough to see that other women should be allowed a choice other than the one they themselves want.


  • #675
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,223 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    infogiver wrote: »
    If you can get your head around the mental gymnastics required to detach yourself from what you are quite rightly describing as a "deliberate act to kill", then you could start to see this whole issue as the pro "choice" advocates do.
    I've established that it starts with perscapacity.
    You can't say "pro abortion " it has to be "pro choice "
    Your not having an abortion, your terminating a pregnancy.
    Even a 40 week gestation baby is a foetus.
    24 weeks gestation babies are "clumps of cells".
    I'm too lazy for the mental gymnastics, me.
    Why do you always focus on the extreme cases. Most abortions happen before 13 weeks where there is no question of any sentience or brain function of the foetus.

    Most pro choice people would happily settle for reasonable restrictions on abortion when a foetus is viable outside of the womb, restricted to where there is a risk to the mother or the foetus is incompatible with life as long as there are no restrictions before 12 weeks.

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • #676
    ricero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,348 ✭✭✭✭ricero


    Liberals are trying to ruin this countries morality. I for one will not vote in abortion to be used as a easy fix for hussies who forget to use contraception


  • #677
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,223 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    ricero wrote: »
    Liberals are trying to ruin this countries morality. I for one will not vote in abortion to be used as a easy fix for hussies who forget to use contraception

    Genius. Let's go back to the good old moral days of slavery for unmarried mothers and their 'bastard' children

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • #678
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    infogiver wrote:
    Pilly what would we do if we didn't have you to point out where we go wrong in our posting.


    Continue to post crap no doubt.


  • #679
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,142 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    ricero wrote: »
    Liberals are trying to ruin this countries morality. I for one will not vote in abortion to be used as a easy fix for hussies who forget to use contraception

    I wonder if the "Pro-Repealers are shrill and callous" crowd will have a go at your post? Something tells me they won't.


  • #680
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    ricero wrote: »
    Liberals are trying to ruin this countries morality. I for one will not vote in abortion to be used as a easy fix for hussies who forget to use contraception
    Fully agree. People don't like personal responsibility in society now. It's everyone else fault now.


  • #681
    spakman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,289 ✭✭✭spakman


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    ricero wrote: »
    Liberals are trying to ruin this countries morality. I for one will not vote in abortion to be used as a easy fix for hussies who forget to use contraception

    I wonder if the "Pro-Repealers are shrill and callous" crowd will have a go at your post? Something tells me they won't.

    I assume (and hope) he's a WUM just looking to get a rise. That attitude went out before the turn of the millennium


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  • #682
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,223 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    Fully agree. People don't like personal responsibility in society now. It's everyone else fault now.

    Yeah, let's punish irresponsible 'hussies' by forcing them to have a defenseless newborn baby to raise for the next 2 decades. That's a consistent world view

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • #683
    farmer john8
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13 ✭farmer john8


    if the scumbag lefty liberals want to abort their own children they can go right ahead and jump on a ferry to the uk and on the way back jump off.they wont dictate to the ordinary decent people of ireland


  • #684
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,914 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    farmer john8 wrote: »
    if the scumbag lefty liberals want to abort their own children they can go right ahead and jump on a ferry to the uk and on the way back jump off.they wont dictate to the ordinary decent people of

    Will they be making abortions mandatory??


  • #685
    Calhoun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    Anyone hear any of the debates on the radio this morning ? I caught a bit and as expected one of the female commentators basically saying the CA was corrupt and no representative .

    Missed the rest of it I'm sure it didn't get any better from there.


  • #686
    Woodville56
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Woodville56


    Akrasia wrote: »
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    Fully agree. People don't like personal responsibility in society now. It's everyone else fault now.

    Yeah, let's punish irresponsible 'hussies' by forcing them to have a defenseless newborn baby to raise for the next 2 decades. That's a consistent world view

    So now abortion is being suggested as saving a defenseless newborn baby an uncertain childhood by killing it in the womb? Such a disingenuous argument , when the real reason is about getting rid of an unwanted pregnancy ?


  • #687
    Demonique
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭Demonique


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    Including FGM, prostitution and womb renting?

    FGM isn't a woman choosing to do what she wants with her own body though, it's a choice that's made for young girls by their parents and/or community, they tend not to get a say in the matter.

    So it's not comparable to women choosing to get an abortion.


    And if a woman wants to be a prostitute or to rent her womb it's her decision


  • #688
    Demonique
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭Demonique


    infogiver wrote: »
    If you are of sound mind and you want FGM for your minor daughter then you should be allowed?

    FGM isn't a woman choosing to do what she wants with her own body though which is what the first poster who mentioned it suggested.


    If an adult woman wants to mutilate her own genitals and is of sound mind, I suppose she can do what she wants, her daughter's genitals on the other hand? No, leave your daughter's body alone.


  • #689
    Demonique
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭Demonique


    infogiver wrote: »
    What about the body within their body?

    If there's a body within their body, they have the right to evict said body.


  • #690
    Demonique
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭Demonique


    me_right_one wrote: »
    Even if that means killing someone else's body?

    Yes


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  • #691
    Demonique
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭Demonique


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    IVF.

    How does IVF help a woman with an unwanted pregnancy?

    Yeah, with IVF eggs are fertilised outside the body and then implanted in the woman's body.

    That poster was suggesting we're also able to take an already implanted embryo/fetus from a pregnant woman's body and implant it in another woman's body.

    We're not, with surrogate pregnancy the eggs are still fertilised outside the surrogate's body and then implanted


This discussion has been closed.
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