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March for Science, Dublin, 22/04

13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 587 ✭✭✭twill


    It's a reaction in general to anti-science rhetoric that has risen in popularity in recent years, the extremely pressing need to actually start taking climate change seriously, but also highlighting the need for increased investment in research. Particularly 'blue skies' research where most actual discoveries come from.

    The organisers should have made the objectives clear if that is the case. It's insulting to people to assume that they can't be trusted to deal with issues and the only way to mobilise them is to throw vague slogans at them. This is especially relevant given that this march is presumably linked to the 'Marches for Science' in the U.S., where the issues are different.
    CatFromHue wrote:
    If you take how many people are going or eating a lot of gluten free food even though they're not coeliac alludes to something else driving people than what scientists are telling them.
    Recent studies have indicated that non-coeliac gluten sensitivity exists, yet many scientists still proclaim the herd mentality of people who avoid gluten but don't have coeliac disease. Why? Some scientists like the idea that they are crusaders against the ignorant, anti-scientific mob so much that mere facts don't count.
    The MMR vaccine causing Autism has been massively massively massively debunked and yet some choose to believe it anyway.
    I believe the hysteria surrounding autism is due to a massive publicity campaign run by a group called Autism Speaks characterising autism as a malign force waiting to steal souls, etc. Universities, including many in Ireland, have no qualms in dealing with this organisation.


  • Posts: 1,895 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    twill wrote: »
    The organisers should have made the objectives clear if that is the case. It's insulting to people to assume that they can't be trusted to deal with issues and the only way to mobilise them is to throw vague slogans at them. This is especially relevant given that this march is presumably linked to the 'Marches for Science' in the U.S., where the issues are different.

    You're probably right, it wasn't as impactful as it probably could have been, but sure if you don't try...! I haven't really been following its organization in the US but yes obviously they're facing slightly more serious issues there. It's still good to stand in solidarity with scientists in other countries though ; while the immigration ban was going on in the US there was an international drive within the science community to provide lab/desk space/library access to scientists who were unable to re-enter the US. Science is global we have to look out for each other.

    I think any publicity the march would have gotten here has been overlooked with the news from the Citizen's Assembly today however!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    Friends have been posting from the march on Facebook but I still haven't got a clue what it's about. Science is important, being anti science is bad, basically? I skipped a few pages of the thread, did I miss an explanation?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 646 ✭✭✭hungry hypno toad


    Why would I march for science? What has science ever done for me?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    As a scientist, I've been ambivalent about this whole notion since it was announced. Okay, it does take a lot to rev the scientists into marching, it really does. If you, as a president, manage to upset the scientific community enough to drag them into public in any way connected to politics, you are doing something really wrong because that's against a lot of instincts.

    I am worried that this encourages science to be classed with a lot of political topics that have already been divided into "right" and "left" and science should not have a political bias. I can think of a very few directly politically-influenced decisions about what to or not to study in terms of scientific endevour and ...actually, the worry of medical professionals in against studying the differences in racial physiology of human beings in terms of what medical treatments are more or less effective is really the main one. (There is a lurking fear that idiots will pick it up to start giving reasons to class X race as being inferior or superior. Also, everyone's still rather embarrassed about eugenics.)

    I didn't like seeing all that kerfuffle around the Washington (?) march about diversity and etcetera. It starts drawing in other issues.

    This is not the war that scientists should have to fight. Although as Michael Mann said, it's not a fight they wanted, but it's too important. And maybe he's right. There is a war on science going on in the US, where the administration (and many other people) short-sightedly want to control what is studied to come up with answers convenient to popular policies and THAT IS WRONG.

    And there is a sustained, vicious attack on scientists who study "unpopular" subjects, such as climate change. I was enrolled in University of East Anglia, in the climate department, during "Climategate". It was awful. I personally missed most of it due to illness, but you bet your ass I was following it. I was following it when PhD students were being threatened, when CRU (Climate Research Unit) was on lock-down for fear of bomb-threats (it took me over a year to get one of my papers back), when my lecturers were being decried as liars and con-men in global media. I was following it when the report that cleared them of any wrongdoing* was pasted across...page 16 in small letters, after months of brutal and incorrect headlines. People still try to hold up "Climategate" as "proof" despite it being clearly and absolutely rubbish. And cruel, vicious, anti-intellectual rubbish at that.

    There is an attack on science at the moment. And scientists are humans too and feel anger and outrage at being dismissed as liars when what their research evidences doesn't match up with what people want to believe. This period is probably one of the most blatant for anti-Enlightenment bull****. Stem cell research is evil! Natural famine is better than filthy GMO dwarf wheat and golden rice that has saved millions of lives! Apples will have TEETH**! Vaccination is a plot to give children autism! Teach the controversy - did God really make the world in 6 days??! WHO KNOWS?! Climate change is a lie, despite the VISIBLE EFFECTS already being y'know, VISIBLE.

    No, it's all a lie from Big Science, as Big Oil will happily encourage. And people keep. Falling. For. It.

    It'd make you despair of human intelligence, it really would. And don't think that science always moves forward. China and Japan both lost their peaks of scientific endeavor and innovation through the people turning against it (China after the Imperial City was struck by lightning burned all their books and regressed to an earlier period, Japan's samurai class hated the new technological marvel of guns and steelcraft and it took something like 500 years to regain it. Even now, science is not "safe". The regressives remain ready to destroy what they can't understand.



    *They got a minor slap on the wrist for denying FAOs from certain people and groups, despite said FAOs being generated - and this is true - to annoy and disrupt them (yes, this was actually a thing), not to mention demanding the raw data that many of those demanding it couldn't parse anyway while insisting it was all a scam. That is enough to fcuking annoy anyone. Still though, they shouldn't have, even in irritation, denied requests.

    **Yes, that was a thing too. No, it's not real.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,642 ✭✭✭MRnotlob606


    biko wrote: »
    I can see how US scientists may be affected by a change in the government administration.
    So what are scientists in Ireland marching for? Support with their US peers in case Trump turn out to defund them?

    If this gets hijacked by climate lobby then you will split this down along those lines and tbh you will risk to make science political.

    This is one person's reasons
    https://sciencemarchie.wordpress.com/2017/04/13/why-i-am-marching-caitriona-buggle/

    In my humble opinion there is zero threat against science in Europe.
    The threat against science in America is from the Christian loonies so for me it would be better with a March for Science and Reason against religion.

    This is my I may go, to show my support with science over religious nuts.

    So you're using it as tool to knock religion basically? You're making such a generalization about religion. The Catholic Church affirms that Climate Change is actually real and the pope is making positive and progressive statements against the environmental degradation of our planet.


    I don't think climate change has to do with religion, it has to do with accepting basic facts about the changing nature of our Earth due human interference.

    Sure there are some crazy evangelical nuts in the USA, but the majority of World religious leaders have issued statements about climate justice and fighting to protect our planet.

    Here's an interesting compilation of World leaders enunciating their support for climate change.

    http://fore.yale.edu/climate-change/statements-from-world-religions/christianity/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,439 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Samaris wrote: »
    I am worried that this encourages science to be classed with a lot of political topics that have already been divided into "right" and "left" and science should not have a political bias. I can think of a very few directly politically-influenced decisions about what to or not to study in terms of scientific endevour and ...


    Has science not always been influenced by politics though?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    Tbh, Mrnotlob, science has nothing to do with religion, but its politicisation has resulted in "If you are on this side" (currently the right-wing, particularly the religious conservative wing), you MUST believe in this, because only a filthy liberal would argue that climate change/vaccination are worthy of study.

    It's really pretty irrelevent to Christianity, bar the ridiculous argument over the theory of evolution, but because the people that are most targeted with the bull****orama also tend to hold religious views, religious views get dragged in as another stick to beat the evil science with.

    Examples I've seen of people trying to get a stronger position against a specific topic of scientific study using religion:

    - Creationism - the Bible says this, therefore it is absolutely true and not a metaphor in any way. God created the world. In six days. Period. Man also lived with the dinosaurs and ...you know, the tooth-grinding idiocy of this argument makes it very hard to articulate it.

    - God controls the climate and it is sheer hubris to think that man could affect God's work like that. - Local boy Danny Healy-Rae, but also 15% of Americans according to this study - http://climatecommunication.yale.edu/publications/global-warming-god-end-times/

    - Intelligent Design - How could an eyeball develop?! It must have been God, because how would it be useful to have half an eye? God presumably created the appendix for sh*ts and giggles.

    - Basic Medicine - God will heal you if you pray, and to take conventional medicine is an affront to faith in Him. (Have they ever heard the old saying "Pray to God, sailor, but row for the shore"?)

    - GMO foods - Tinkering with God's holy work! Again with the "pray to God, sailor" quote. Apparently famine (for people living far away though) is better than dwarf wheat that will grow and produce without falling over due to the weight of the corn ear and rotting before ripening.

    Ugh, it goes on. Stem cell research is another one.

    None of these are really directly linked to religion, but religious arguments are a traditional argument against scientific knowledge. Even, oddly enough, when the Church itself supports it (although this really only counts for people who follow specific Churches. Enjoy telling a fundamentalist Evangelical Baptist that the Pope thinks not destroying the planet is a jolly good idea.)

    It's not specifically an attack on religion, for all science and religion have some issues together, but people need to find cogent arguments against the science they are told to mistrust and...they came up with these.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    Has science not always been influenced by politics though?

    Influenced, yes. Politics is the national discourse of power and the people, and therefore basically influences everything we do. But that influence is getting more and more pervasive (and deliberately dangerous) after a relatively sane approach to it.

    How developed do we have to be to be able to turn our backs on this sort of malevolent rubbish?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,245 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    Why would I march for science? What has science ever done for me?
    ... s/he says, communicating over the Internet, using a computer powered by electricity ...

    Government resting upon the will and universal suffrage of the people has no anchorage except in the people's intelligence.

    — Grover Cleveland



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 646 ✭✭✭hungry hypno toad


    bnt wrote: »
    ... s/he says, communicating over the Internet, using a computer powered by electricity ...

    That went right over your head. :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,439 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Samaris wrote: »
    Influenced, yes. Politics is the national discourse of power and the people, and therefore basically influences everything we do. But that influence is getting more and more pervasive (and deliberately dangerous) after a relatively sane approach to it.

    How developed do we have to be to be able to turn our backs on this sort of malevolent rubbish?


    I don't think we'll ever develop to a point where human beings aren't given to their most basic instincts of self-preservation and skepticism fuelled by ignorance tbh.

    Samaris wrote: »
    It's not specifically an attack on religion, for all science and religion have some issues together, but people need to find cogent arguments against the science they are told to mistrust and...they came up with these.


    More and more actually, I don't know that it's religion is an issue in the developed world any more, so much as people are influenced by imagining that they know better than conventional science. I'm thinking of the recent, dare I say it, but more and more parents are actually proud of the fact that they are anti-vaccine for example (you'll see them quite a bit on social media) -

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2015/02/conservatives_and_liberals_hold_anti_science_views_anti_vaxxers_are_a_bipartisan.html

    Personally, I think there's more than just the influence of traditional religion is going on, and more and more I'm seeing objective scientific inquiry being influenced by identity politics and a more connected society where everyone has an equal opportunity to promote their own particular brand of 'science', that appeals to a broad audience.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    More and more actually, I don't know that it's religion is an issue in the developed world any more, so much as people are influenced by imagining that they know better than conventional science. I'm thinking of the recent, dare I say it, but more and more parents are actually proud of the fact that they are anti-vaccine for example (you'll see them quite a bit on social media) -

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2015/02/conservatives_and_liberals_hold_anti_science_views_anti_vaxxers_are_a_bipartisan.html

    The anti-climate change bull makes me furious, but the anti-vaxxers...dammit, they just make me sad. The kids have no choice in this, and it's deliberately withholding medical help for them because of ..malevolent rubbish. And it is tragic when a healthy, bright toddler suddenly starts regressing into a mental darkness and inability to communicate. It is so understandable that there must be some reason, something to blame, and it is unfortunate that vaccinations take place at roughly the same development period.

    Jenny McCarthy made some comment mocking that she was being blamed for the measles epidemic and her callous ignorance made me see red. How dare she mock that children are now dying in the U.S. of a disease that was nearly eradicated there, in part due to her and people like her convincing parents to protect their children by exposing them to childhood illnesses that used to carry off children in their thousands.

    It's sickening. I don't blame the parents (although I do wish they'd do more research that wasn't on the blogs of idiots like McCarthy), but I absolutely do blame those that crusade for this evil nonsense.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,750 ✭✭✭iDave


    This really has the potential to be a great worldwide movement aimed at promoting rationality and reason.
    It's got a big job ahead of it with so many climate deniers, anti-vaxxers, creationists, flat earthers, biology deniers etc out there.
    I really hope it does well but I fear it will be hijacked by the SJW hard left that'll turn it into a vehicle for their diversity cult. Already saw a photo of one placard saying 'Einstein was an Immigrant '. How is that even relevant?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    The annoying thing is that I can see where they're coming from with their other issues being drawn in. Sure, the scientific community does have various issues, and some of them are political or social-ish (such as the position of immigrants and diversity etcetera), but it really does risk diluting this specific issue and also giving the naturally suspicious something to complain about. It suggests that science and a sane approach to it is a partisan issue and that is complete nonsense! Whether or not you believe in God, you still breathe out CO2. Whether or not you think vaccination is bad, your children are still susceptible to measles. Whether or not you vote Republican or Democrat, you still need clean water and access to food to survive.

    Why oh why does every damned thing have to be partisan these days? So overall, I agree, keep the other issues out. It's too dangerous to spread out over too many issues and try to solve them all at once and link them together.


  • Posts: 5,464 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    iDave wrote: »
    This really has the potential to be a great worldwide movement aimed at promoting rationality and reason.
    It's got a big job ahead of it with so many climate deniers, anti-vaxxers, creationists, flat earthers, biology deniers etc out there.
    I really hope it does well but I fear it will be hijacked by the SJW hard left that'll turn it into a vehicle for their diversity cult. Already saw a photo of one placard saying 'Einstein was an Immigrant '. How is that even relevant?

    It doesn't take a genius to work that one out.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,060 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Just days after the march had gone viral, the @ScienceMarchDC account tweeted that
    colonization, racism, immigration, native rights, sexism, ableism, queer-, trans-, intersex-phobia, & econ justice are scientific issues.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,060 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Hey, how do you like my marchforcience placard?

    18056295_1612086348818846_4763417587936767493_o.png


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,311 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    biko wrote: »
    Just days after the march had gone viral, the @ScienceMarchDC account tweeted that

    ...and these would be the same folks telling us there are no biological differences between the sexes. It seems some sections of the march (in the US) are just as much anti-science as the Trump climate deniers and anti-vaxxers when it threatens their own funding. Both left and right wing in the US are guilty of this when it aligns with their interests.
    The Left’s most rigid taboos involve the biology of race and gender, as the Harvard psychologist Steven Pinker chronicles in The Blank Slate. The book takes its title from Pinker’s term for the dogma that “any differences we see among races, ethnic groups, sexes, and individuals come not from differences in their innate constitution but from differences in their experiences.” The dogma constricts researchers’ perspective—“No biology, please, we’re social scientists”—and discourages debate, in and out of academia. Early researchers in sociobiology faced vitriolic attacks from prominent scientists like Stephen Jay Gould, who accused them of racism and sexism for studying genetic influences on behavior.

    Studying IQ has been a risky career move since the 1970s, when researchers like Arthur Jensen and Richard Herrnstein had to cancel lectures (and sometimes hire bodyguards) because of angry protesters accusing them of racism. Government funding dried up, forcing researchers in IQ and behavioral genetics to rely on private donors, who in the 1980s financed the renowned Minnesota study of twins reared apart. Leftists tried to cut off that funding in the 1990s, when the University of Delaware halted the IQ research of Linda Gottfredson and Jan Blits for two years by refusing to let them accept a foundation’s grant; the research proceeded only after an arbitrator ruled that their academic freedom had been violated.

    The Blank Slate dogma has perpetuated a liberal version of creationism: the belief that there has been no evolution in modern humans since they left their ancestral homeland in Africa some 50,000 years ago. Except for a few genetic changes in skin color and other superficial qualities, humans everywhere are supposedly alike because there hasn’t been enough time for significant differences to evolve in their brains and innate behavior. This belief was plausible when biologists assumed that evolution was a slow process, but the decoding of the human genome has disproved it, as Nicholas Wade (a former colleague of mine at the New York Times) reported in his 2015 book, A Troublesome Inheritance.

    “Human evolution has been recent, copious and regional,” writes Wade, noting that at least 8 percent of the human genome has changed since the departure from Africa. The new analysis has revealed five distinguishable races that evolved in response to regional conditions: Africans, East Asians, Caucasians, the natives of the Americas, and the peoples of Australia and Papua New Guinea. Yet social scientists go on denying the very existence of races. The American Anthropological Association declares race to be “a human invention” that is “about culture, not biology.” The American Sociological Association calls race a “social construct.” Even biologists and geneticists are afraid of the R-word. More than 100 of them sent a letter to the New York Times denouncing Wade’s book as inaccurate, yet they refused to provide any examples of his mistakes. They apparently hadn’t bothered to read the book because they accused Wade of linking racial variations to IQ scores—a link that his book specifically rejected.

    Some genetic differences are politically acceptable on the left, such as the biological basis for homosexuality, which was deemed plausible by 70 percent of sociologists in a recent survey. But that same survey found that only 43 percent accepted a biological explanation for male-female differences in spatial skills and communication. How could the rest of the sociologists deny the role of biology? It was no coincidence that these doubters espoused the most extreme left-wing political views and the strongest commitment to a feminist perspective. To dedicated leftists and feminists, it doesn’t matter how much evidence of sexual differences is produced by developmental psychologists, primatologists, neuroscientists, and other researchers. Any disparity between the sexes—or, at least, any disparity unfavorable to women—must be blamed on discrimination and other cultural factors.

    Former Harvard president Lawrence Summers found this out the hard way at an academic conference where he dared to discuss the preponderance of men among professors of mathematics and physical sciences at elite universities. While acknowledging that women faced cultural barriers, like discrimination and the pressures of family responsibilities, Summers hypothesized that there might be other factors, too, such as the greater number of men at the extreme high end in tests measuring mathematical ability and other traits. Males’ greater variability in aptitude is well established—it’s why there are more male dunces as well as geniuses—but scientific accuracy was no defense against the feminist outcry. The controversy forced Summers to apologize and ultimately contributed to his resignation. Besides violating the Blank Slate taboo, Summers had threatened an academic cottage industry kept alive by the myth that gender disparities in science are due to discrimination.

    This industry, supported by more than $200 million from the National Science Foundation, persists despite overwhelming evidence—from experiments as well as extensive studies of who gets academic jobs and research grants—that a female scientist is treated as well as or better than an equally qualified male. In a rigorous set of five experiments published last year, the female candidate was preferred two-to-one over an equivalent male. The main reason for sexual disparities in some fields is a difference in interests: from an early age, more males are more interested in fields like physics and engineering, while more females are interested in fields like biology and psychology (where most doctorates go to women).

    On the whole, American women are doing much better than men academically—they receive the majority of undergraduate and graduate degrees—yet education researchers and federal funders have focused for decades on the few fields in science where men predominate. It was bad enough that the National Science Foundation’s grants paid for workshops featuring a game called Gender Bias Bingo and skits in which arrogant male scientists mistreat smarter female colleagues. But then, these workshops nearly became mandatory when Democrats controlled Congress in 2010. In response to feminist lobbying, the House passed a bill (which fortunately died in the Senate) requiring federal science agencies to hold “gender equity” workshops for the recipients of research grants.

    It might seem odd that the “party of science” would be dragging researchers out of the lab to be reeducated in games of Gender Bias Bingo. But politicians will always care more about pleasing constituencies than advancing science.

    Full article here: https://www.city-journal.org/html/real-war-science-14782.html

    I am of the view that if one is truly pro-science, then nothing should be off limits, even if it goes against your ideology. However, what we really have (talking about the US) is different groups on both sides cherry picking the science they want to protect their own interests.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    mzungu wrote: »
    ...and these would be the same folks telling us there are no biological differences between the sexes. It seems some sections of the march (in the US) are just as much anti-science as the Trump climate deniers and anti-vaxxers when it threatens their own funding. Both left and right wing in the US are guilty of this when interests suit.



    If you are truly pro-science, then nothing should be off limits, even if it goes against your ideology.

    I agree in many ways. I understand the deep worry behind studying IQ and racial differences (although IQ has always been a rather unscientific measurement), but overall, I agree it should not be off-limits.

    Although idiots who will take any possible variation to heart and proclaim the general supremacy of X race won't show any restraint, so I believe that scientists feel a certain responsibility to not encourage them. It's a bit anti the purity of science, which should have no political leanings, but I can occasionally see an argument for it. It's a pity that the argument is "those idiots that hate science that disagrees with their notions", but they are incredibly pervasive. Also, the medical research community is still pretty iffy about anything that lurks towards eugenics or that could be used as another excuse for it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Is this a science march or a social sience march? while sience is obviously a broad church, it would be a pity to dilute this movement with causes which already have huge support and infrastructure such as lgbtq, abortion etc


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,311 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    Samaris wrote: »
    I agree in many ways. I understand the deep worry behind studying IQ and racial differences (although IQ has always been a rather unscientific measurement), but overall, I agree it should not be off-limits.
    Indeed, IQ is still pretty divisive, Charles Murray (author of The Bell Curve) was attacked after giving a lecture in Middlebury a few weeks back. Actually, it was a lecturer at Middlebury college that was opposed to Murray's conclusions, and was there to challenge him, that was injured after being set upon by a mob (she ended up in a neck brace IIRC). I do understand that it is divisive, I think everything along those lines will be, but as always the best way to challenge those views is to open up a discussion and thrash things out that way. I guess the fact that there was a riot might signal there is a bit of a road to be travelled before stuff like that can be approached.
    Samaris wrote: »
    Although idiots who will take any possible variation to heart and proclaim the general supremacy of X race won't show any restraint, so I believe that scientists feel a certain responsibility to not encourage them. It's a bit anti the purity of science, which should have no political leanings, but I can occasionally see an argument for it. It's a pity that the argument is "those idiots that hate science that disagrees with their notions", but they are incredibly pervasive. Also, the medical research community is still pretty iffy about anything that lurks towards eugenics or that could be used as another excuse for it.
    Aye, although I would be of the view that the only people that would be encouraged would be those who already subscribed to the idea of racial supremacy in general. But, like yourself, I do see the argument for carrying out that kind of research, but at the same time I also understand the hesitancy to venture down that road, it's only natural.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Samaris wrote: »
    I agree in many ways. I understand the deep worry behind studying IQ and racial differences (although IQ has always been a rather unscientific measurement), but overall, I agree it should not be off-limits.

    From the biological perspective, the concept of "race" has no basis in science.

    So studying IQ (dubious science) with race (non-science)... well that's not going to get a good response from scientists.

    Might as well measure auras in unicorns, though at least that wouldn't be as divisive.
    iDave wrote: »
    Already saw a photo of one placard saying 'Einstein was an Immigrant '. How is that even relevant?

    It's a reminder that restricting free movement, access to eduction etc. deprives us all of brilliant people. I often wonder how many Einsteins have died in obscurity for lack of his opportunities. It would be just as valid to introduce the gender issue. SJWs tho.


  • Posts: 1,895 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    It's almost as if it's possible to care about multiple issues at the same time...

    Research, and education, in Ireland has been critically underfunded for years. It's important that we reverse this if we want to continue to provide world-class education for our future generations, and to maintain our status as a scientific leader. Education and R&D spending directly correlate to income equality and economic strength; it's important for our country's future that we address these issues, our country's habit of short-term thinking is not good enough here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Posts: 1,895 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    We were previously funding education to a much higher level and have made major cuts to stem holes in our budget elsewhere. This needs to be reversed, but I'll leave it to someone with a better knowledge of economics and fiscal policy to work out how ; I don't claim to know all the answers!

    Of course older generations did not benefit from more recent improvements to our education system, and our high participation rate in third level is relatively recent. There are still issues with access to education for people from low income backgrounds too. But until recently our universities performed very well on a world stage, but have slipped back enormously since we stopped funding them at any sort of acceptable level.

    I don't know if you work in science or not but it's not true that Ireland isn't a leader in science ; in certain fields we've made huge advancements, and not just on the back of one or two scientists. It's well recognised that Ireland has been punching well above its weight for scientific output compared to its size. However that is very likely to change if we don't start making investments in these areas again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,067 ✭✭✭Ficheall


    I still don't quite understand what this march was supposed to achieve..


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