Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

A Slow Journey to Faster Times

Options
199100101103105

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,936 ✭✭✭annapr


    Looking good, P, hope all goes well for you in London.... very best of luck!!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Kennyg71


    Best of Luck P, have a good one, hope everything lined up on Sunday.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,911 ✭✭✭tailgunner


    Best of luck!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,415 ✭✭✭Singer


    Hope it goes well! You look to be in a great shape physically and mentally for the race. Enjoy it either way.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭nop98


    Good luck! Have a great race.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 2,376 ✭✭✭diego_b


    Best of luck for Sunday!


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 16,107 Mod ✭✭✭✭adrian522


    All the best for Sunday P, hope the weather God's are kind this year!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,044 ✭✭✭chickey2


    Best of luck!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭jake1970


    The very best of luck on Sunday P, I hope all goes well. Enjoy!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,610 ✭✭✭yaboya1


    London Marathon - Week 18/18


    So, race week is finally here. It's felt like an age. I signed up for this almost 11 months ago!


    Monday 17th April
    6m @ 8:12p/m average (123bpm avg)

    Nice little run around the back roads of Millstreet. Very enjoyable.


    Tuesday 18th April
    6m @ 8:01p/m average (121bpm avg)

    Runmute into work with the backpack. Nice morning, if a little bit chilly.


    Wednesday 19th April
    Rest


    Thursday 20th April
    5m @ 8:33p/m average (116bpm avg)

    Had swapped today & Tuesday around as I can't make my runmute shorter than 6m, and I wasn't going to start adding extra miles onto my week :). No other comments to make about this. Very boring.


    Friday 21st April
    6m @ 8:25p/m average (126bpm avg)

    Runmute home this time with the backpack. Felt pretty horrible. Back in the days I used to run pb's, a ****ty final pre-race run was actually the norm for me. Is it a sign?



    I'm highly unlikely to do tomorrow's prescribed 3m run. I'm travelling by car, plane, train, tube and on foot during the day. Need to go from the airport to central London, to the expo in East London and back again. That sounds like way more work than it actually is, but I'm not going to worry about squeezing three miles in. If it happens, it happens but it most probably won't. I'll be running the next day though. Anyone up for 26.2m on Sunday morning? :D


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 4,610 ✭✭✭yaboya1


    Thanks for all the good wishes.
    I really, really appreciate the support.
    I'm not sure if it's my phone or boards, but I can't multiquote and I'd be here all night trying to reply to each one one individually.
    I'm hoping I've done enough to turn up at the start line in a position to do myself justice. If I have, I should be capable of running a significant pb. If I can do that, I'll be happy and for once may feel like I got the better of the marathon beast.

    So many ifs.......


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,199 ✭✭✭denis b


    The very best of luck on all that training P.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,621 ✭✭✭ThebitterLemon


    All the best P


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭El Caballo


    All the best mate, have a good one:)


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,978 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    Wishing you all the best for Sunday!


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,432 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    Looks like an excellent block of training, P, and some good tune-up races too, all the signs though that you're peaking at the right time. All the best on the day!


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,272 ✭✭✭Dubgal72


    Everything crossed for you tomorrow P :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭hot buttered scones


    Best of luck tomorrow.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭hot buttered scones


    Best of luck tomorrow.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,400 ✭✭✭ger664


    P trust in your training tomorrow luck doesn't come into it just hard work which is done.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 4,610 ✭✭✭yaboya1


    3:06:34 for me.

    Not anywhere near what I was hoping for, but happy enough with the run.
    The marathon takes a 10-0 lead against me and I've still yet to run a negative split.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,610 ✭✭✭yaboya1


    I've been analysing Sunday's race in my head for a day now, so it's time to put it down in writing and learn from it.


    History

    I ran my first three marathons off the back of brainless training & clueless preparation. I managed to get around in respectable times without injury, but it was obvious to others more knowledgeable than me that I was seriously underselling myself. Having taken some advice on board after Chicago in 2013, I set up this log, followed a plan and went on to run a 26 minute pb in Seville. Later that year, I went sub 3 in Berlin off my second block of 'proper' training. I thought this marathon running lark was fairly simple. In my case I had knocked 35 minutes off my pb in less than a year and half expected that trend to continue, albeit with the margins gradually reducing. Don't get me wrong, I knew I had to put in the hard work and the mileage, but at the end I got a pb. That was the way it had always been. The Dublin Marathon of 2014 was the first race of any distance I ever ran where I didn't finish with a pb. Even then it came just four weeks after my successful sub 3 in Berlin, and I treated it as a lap of honour on (arguably) a day when our national marathon was subjected to the most difficult conditions it has ever taken place in.
    In the following six months I put in another solid block of training, assuming I'd knock 5-10 more minutes off my best in Hamburg. However, when the race came around I only managed to come home a measly seven seconds faster than Berlin and haven't run a pb since.
    Every race I ran in 2015 after Hamburg was a complete disaster, culminating in a horror show in New York where I actually slowed to a walk in a marathon for the first time ever. Walking in a marathon (or any race) was something I'd promised myself I'd never do. It's an urge I'm sure everyone gets (along with stopping/dropping out) as soon as the pain starts to set in, but I'd successfully refused to give in until that point and felt like I hit a new low when I did. It was to get even worse in Boston of 2016, when not only did I walk in stages, but also managed to set a new personal worst. I was/am utterly ashamed of that race and hated myself after it. I just imagined what I would think of someone else who did the same. I was an embarrassment. It felt like I'd scaled a peak from one side and was now sliding rapidly down the other, this time reaching depths below where I'd even been as a beginner.
    It took a while to fall back in love with running after that, but coming into the summer I completed a few shorter races and got some confidence back. A couple of respectable performances in late 2016, along with a pacing gig in the DCM gave me a good base to start marathon training again with London as the target.


    Training

    I requested the Hansons Marathon Method book as a birthday present, having read good things about it from aero2k who used their plans to great effect in his final two marathons. I got it, read it and felt like there was nothing to lose given my most recent marathon performances, so decided to give it a go. I'll analyse this in more detail after the race report, but here's a quick summary to give anyone reading a basic idea of the format. Every two week block basically consists of an easy run on Mondays, Fridays, Saturdays & every second Sunday. Tuesdays were speed work (V02 Max) in the early weeks, before changing to strength work (MP -10secs) for the remainder. Thursdays were MP paced runs increasing from 6m to 10m throughout the cycle. Both Tuesdays & Thursdays always involved full warm ups and cool downs (usually 2m each). Every second Sunday was a long run (at MP +30-40 secs). The furthest these went were 16m (3 times). This plan really does test you in my opinion. Even the weeks when there was no 'long' run and the pace was easy, you were coming off the back of a tough one the week before so it wasn't the piece of cake you might expect at first glance. Anyway, I followed it almost religiously and felt confident going to London having got through it unscathed without any major hiccups.


    Pre Race

    This is more dramatic than I'd have expected it to be. No issues with flights, hotels or anything like that. Bib number & chip pick up were fine. Only small annoyance was the long walk to & from the Expo from the Excel entrance, having to dodge shoppers & gamers along the way who preferred to look in a different direction than the one they chose to walk in. I was glad to finally get out of there. Other than that, I managed to get a nap in on Saturday afternoon before me and the gf joined Ferris & Mrs B for a nice Italian meal in the evening. I even managed to order a pasta dish this time! In bed by 9:30-10pm and everything was going to plan. Fantastic sleep before I woke up for breakfast around 5:15am. After some porridge, a bagel and a glass of water I lay back down. Didn't need to leave before 7am, so set my alarm for 6:30 and conked back out for an hour. Up again, shower, dressed, coffee & a banana and I was on my way. Don't think I've ever been as relaxed. I'd never have been able to go back asleep after originally waking up before. I was in Victoria Station before 8am for my 8:09 train, which would get me to Blackheath for 8:36. That gave me over an hour to find the start, drop my bag, take care of any bowel movements (allowing for queues) and get well positioned in my corral. Everything was going so well.
    The train pulled out bang on time. Five stops to Blackheath. About five minutes into the journey we came to a stop in the middle of nowhere. The driver came over the intercom to say he was stopped at a red signal and we should be moving again shortly. We heard nothing then for another 10-15 minutes, but didn't move. Approaching 8:30am and we hadn't even reached our first of five stations. The driver came on the intercom again to say the signalman has been in contact and we couldn't continue our journey onwards as there was a body on the line (RIP). We must go back towards London and await further instructions. It was another 5-10 minutes before we moved. Then we started going backwards. We came to a stop about halfway between where we were and Victoria Station. He came back on again to say we'd be changing tracks and continuing to our original destination, but would be skipping two of the original stops before Blackheath. I was happy to get going, but felt feel sorry for the other runners I saw standing on platforms as we whizzed by them. I arrived in Blackheath at about 9:10, hoping that the trains behind (two others due to get runners to the start on time) picked up the stranded passengers. This was an uncontrollable that could have caused me a lot of anxiety if I'd let it worry me, but because I left early enough and allowed for something unforeseen there was no issue. I can safely say none of this phased me. It just meant when I eventually got there I had to queue longer for the toilets and ended up near the back of the group when we got called in. Going over the line when we were eventually let go though, I was feeling good.


    The Plan

    My last couple of raced marathons have been a complete disaster as already mentioned above. I was originally training towards sub 2:50 at the beginning of this plan, but found the MP runs too difficult and dropped the pace by 5/6 seconds in those meaning I was hitting <6:35. That would equate to a 2:52ish marathon, but I thought sub 2:55 would be ambitious enough at that stage. If I was wrong, I could try speed up late in the race (something I've never been previously capable of in a marathon). So, the original aim was to head out at <6:40min/mile pace.


    The Race

    Start-13.1m
    (Miles 1-13: 6:55, 6:45, 6:42, 6:47, 6:54, 6:54, 6:53, 6:52, 6:57, 7:03, 6:51, 6:56, 6:51)

    For some reason, our wave wasn't let go until 10:02. I assumed this was because there was a delay at all starts, but it turned out not to be so. Anyway, when we were finally sent on our way, I was still stood on the grass as only half of the Fast GFA runners seemed to fit in our allocated pen. I had to walk in behind most of the wave and was probably one of the last ones to get going. I had to laugh when a woman on a megaphone told us all we were "looking strong" after 500m. Anyway, my 6:40 plan never materialised. I could barely get below 7:00 in the first mile due to congestion. As in Ballycotton though, I didn't let this bother me and thought if I was capable of running <2:55, dropping 15 seconds in the first mile wouldn't stop me and it was definitely better than going out too fast. I picked it up a little bit in the next two miles, but crowding was still a bit of an issue and I didn't want to be weaving, especially so early on. I was happy to let the miles tick by without overly worrying about the splits, once I wasn't taking it too easy. Average pace of 6:50 before the course merged with the other two starts seemed ok. As we came down the hill towards the three mile point I saw the blue 3:15 pacer straight ahead of me. Wtf? I couldn't figure this one out at all, but knew I wasn't moving that slowly. I ignored it relative to my own pacing, but knew I'd be shortly running up the a*ses of 3:15/3:20 runners which wasn't going to be ideal. An uncontrollable. I ignored it as I gradually picked off the slower runners now merging with us, all the while trying to be aware of the numerous traffic islands that appear in the middle of the road every so often. One thing I'd heard about London and already noticed up to this point (only 3m in) was how good the support was. I mean this course was rammed from the very start. I don't think we came to an empty spot until we hit the tunnel at 15 miles. It's truly unbelievable. I heard a guy talking to his mate at the Expo saying it was a privilege to run London with the crowds cheering for you and I know now exactly what he meant. They really, really get behind this event. Back to the race.......

    The average pace was hovering around 6:50. Splits were varying between 6:4x & 6:5x. Although I'd been slightly inconvenienced early, I didn't really feel like I was being held up badly. The effort I was exerting felt about right and I thought speeding up to get it down to 6:40 could be a recipe for disaster. So I decided to continue to run by feel with the odd glance at the watch to keep me in check. The miles were ticking by nicely and I was enjoying this rather than wishing it was over by Mile 7 like in Boston last year. We went through 6m, then 10k still around the same pace. After that we looped around the Cutty Sark and continued on our sightseeing tour. There was water every mile, Lucozade every 3/4 miles (I think), a massive crowd, loads of noise, music etc. and a course marked in miles and kilometres. What's not to like? Awesome city, awesome race. Next few miles were fairly similar, although splits for 9 & 10 seemed to be a bit slower. Didn't feel or notice this at the time. As we started to approach Mile 12, I looked forward to crossing Tower Bridge. I've been in London a lot in my lifetime, but I've never actually seen the famous landmark. For some reason, it's always escaped my attention or been out of range of where I was. So running across it was to be my first live experience of it. And what an experience it is. It reminded me of turning onto First Avenue in Manhattan when you come down off the Queensboro Bridge. However, there's no spectators allowed on the bridge in New York, so you go from an eerie silence bar thousands of runners pounding the concrete to a wall of cheering fans. In London you go from walls of enthusiastic supporters to even louder more enthusiastic supporters as you hit the bridge. It's really hard to describe how good they are, but it's an amazing experience. We hit the 20k mark going across the Thames and I felt pretty happy with how I was going despite being well short of 2:55 pace. I was comfortable enough and well on target for sub 3 with the belief at the time that I might be able to do better than that and pb. It was at this point a girl in front of me rapidly slowed down. I think she saw someone she knew in the crowd and decided to talk to them. I nearly ran into the back of her and had to veer left. An angry arm pushed me in the back as I did so. I recognised the red cloaked limb and was surprised he hadn't propelled me much further forward with his extreme power. Superman! Clark Kent wasn't running today. The glasses had been left at home, but the cape was sweaty. Maybe the marathon is his real kryptonite? Despite me slowing badly later in the race, I don't remember him passing me. His superpowers are no more. Spiderman is the one to beat in London. Anyway......
    We ran straight on for a bit after Tower Bridge before taking a right and going under the 13m mark, then the halfway point. I saw 1:30:05 on my watch. I was going to need a negative split for sub 3. Was this the day I was going to do it? At that point, I thought it was.

    Halfway in 1:30:02 officially


    13.1-19m
    (Miles 14-19: 6:47, 6:49, 6:53, 7:02, 7:15, 6:46)

    Pretty soon after we passed the halfway mark, a familiar face appeared to my right. Overpronator gave me a quick hello as he drew alongside me. I responded with a similar greeting, before we both agreed not to talk anymore. As in Trim, I slotted into his slipstream knowing he was holding a similar pace. The section along here is really loud, with the crowd screaming on both sides for the runners going in opposite directions. We got there before the elite men would have passed, but I'm pretty sure I saw Barbara Sanchez making her way past the 35k mark on the other side of the road. We continued straight on to where the course intersected, where we continued straight on past the 14m mark starting our tour of Canary Wharf. The streets narrowed here, but the field had dispersed enough now that it didn't seem to cause too much of a problem, bar on the tight corners which I was having to take a wider than ideal line. Crowds weren't as large in this area, which is probably just as well given the size of the streets. We then took a right down into a tunnel which was the first time I remember a point in the course with no supporters. The Garmin buzzed going by the 15m point here which I wasn't expecting as we were underground and I had almost expected it to lose signal. Still feeling ok and well on for sub 3. Overpronator continued just a few yards in front. After we emerged from the tunnel, we passed Millwall Docks before taking a sharp left turn back away from the water and going through the 16m marker. It was during the next mile that I started to notice myself slipping back at the same effort level. Without Op being in front of me and gradually extending the gap, I may not have realised. I started to lose sight of him and when I looked at the watch for confirmation the lap pace read 7:xx for the first time (I hadn't paid much attention to the splits in the first half, so never saw the 7:03 in Mile 10). When I tried to up the pace a little, it felt more uncomfortable than I thought it should so I decided to ride it out in the hope it was just a minor bad patch. Watch clicked at 7:02, which was fine considering the overall average and I continued on. Next glance showed me around the 7:30 mark. I really didn't feel I was moving that slowly! My effort levels were the same and I didn't consciously feel like the pace had slowed at all, never mind by 30 seconds. I trusted myself, preferring to blame the signal on the Garmin having heard it was unreliable at this stage of the route from past London marathoners. This was despite the fact that I could no longer see Op ahead of me which kind of suggests that the watch may have been right. Mile 18 reads 7:15 from the stats. Into Mile 19 and we began to take a lot of annoying U turns and sharp corners. Coming around one of them, the red 3 hour pacer went by me. Whatever about the blue/green starts, I knew this guy had started behind me. The watch wasn't lying. I was slowing. I started to get pushed and elbowed as the pack of sub 3 hopefuls hanging onto him came barging through from behind, swallowing up all the room I'd had for the last couple of miles. I immediately picked it up. The shock & realisation that I might not even break 3 hours, having set out to go much quicker than that seemed to spring me back into action. I surged back ahead of him into the open space just yards in front of the stampede. The recovery was to be very short lived.

    19m -Finish

    (Miles 20-Finish: 7:17, 7:37, 7:35, 7:44, 7:48, 7:49, 7:44, 2:15)

    Early in Mile 20, the pacer and his followers went by me again. I tried to pick it up for a second time, but I couldn't. I wasn't sure I had it in me to stay with them for another mile, never mind another seven. The feeling I had when they started to drift away was one of complete despair. I was working harder now than I had been for the whole race up to now, but the lap pace was well above 7:xx, with the overall average starting to head in that direction too. I really tried to speed up again, but the response I got from the body was hugely negative. My stomach started to tie up, my breathing was laboured and I was aching all over. At the same time the 3 hour group were continuing to inch further away from me. I wanted to stop, walk or do anything that would make it go away. This is exactly how I felt at different points in both Boston & New York. I gave up in those races and was utterly ashamed of both performances and results. I couldn't do that again. I'd never forgive myself. I accepted that any notions of a pb or sub 3 were now gone out the window, but I could still run a race I could be proud of with the bonus of finishing in a respectable time (I was still very close to sub 3 pace with only seven miles to go). I did what I did on my debut in Dublin. I just tried as hard as I could, running as fast as I could until the end. I stopped looking at the watch. I tried to gauge what was possible by working out how long I'd take to finish after each mile marker. I was hurting badly and felt I was getting slower & slower with each stride. Amazingly though I was only passed by 80 people in the last 7k and managed to pass 216 myself. Just shows there were far more in an even worse state than me. There's no empathy shown by the marathon.
    As the 3 hour pacer disappeared into the distance, we came back onto the streets of London with the vociferous crowds lining both sides of the course. This must be such an amazing run in if you're feeling good in the last 10k. When you get to 21m, you're back running on the other side of the road in the opposite direction to the one you'd been travelling on not so long ago (when your hopes & dreams were still alive :p) with your fellow runners over the barriers about to embark on their tour of Canary Wharf. Up past the Tower Of London then, with the supporters just getting louder & louder as you close in on the Mall. Then we came to what I think was probably my most memorable point of the race. You take a slight descent into an underpass to bring you out onto the Embankment for the final 2-3 miles. As you enter the empty dark tunnel, you can hear booming speakers, DJ's and a roaring crowd coming from the other end. It was like entering a giant rave in a huge stadium and you're the headline act about to emerge to adoring fans. The cheering from here to the finish is just unbelievable. There's no let up. I was out on my feet, but I managed to take it all in and enjoy it for what it is, a really fantastic event. I'd love to say they sucked me towards the finish line, but that's not true as looking at the splits I was still slowing down. When we got to Big Ben it was exactly 1pm. My hopes going into the race was that I'd pass this point feeling strong at about 12:45/12:50pm. If there's an actual photo of that point, that image compared to the one in my head pre-race don't compare very favourably :p. Up Birdcage Walk and the signs start to appear, 1km, 800m, 600m, 400m to go. It's nearly over. Finally! Into the Mall with just 200m to go I couldn't even muster up a sprint. I crossed the line genuinely delighted that I never gave up and the time I achieved was as good as I was on the day. I haven't been able to say that in a marathon for a while. I even lifted my arms for the finish line photo (which actually really hurt!).


    Finish in 3:06:34 officially (Second half of 1:36:32. A positive split of 6:30)


    Official 5k Splits: http://results-2017.virginmoneylondonmarathon.com/2017/?content=detail&fpid=search&pid=search&idp=9999990F5ECC85000024ACEF&lang=EN_CAP&event=MAS&search%5Bstart_no%5D=32276&search%5Bsex%5D=%25&search%5Bnation%5D=%25&search_sort=name&search_event=MAS


    Garmin trace: https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1693899212


    Post Race

    I was sore all over when I crossed the line. As mentioned, it hurt just to raise my arms aloft at the finish but everywhere suddenly ached as soon as I eventually stopped running. Having to carry my goodie bag and gear bag through the crowds beyond the finish area on the way back to the pub didn't help either. I almost seized up when having to stop suddenly a couple of times. Caught up with my own crew and plenty of other fellow runners in the Coal Hole. Had a few pints and a very enjoyable debrief with Overpronator & Ferris B before finally heading back to my hotel for a very early night. I was completely wiped out by 8pm.


    Verdict/Thoughts/Analysis/Future?

    This will actually be longer than the race report, so I'll post separately later on.


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 16,107 Mod ✭✭✭✭adrian522


    Well done Peter, sounds like a very tough second half of the race. It seems a great experience all the same.

    Of all the people I know who did the race on Sunday, most seemed to have had issues in the last 10-15k of the race, not sure if weather played a part but it is satisfying to grind it out when you are not having your best day.

    Great race report as usual.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,610 ✭✭✭yaboya1


    Verdict

    My immediate verdict was that I’d left everything out on the course and run as fast as I could have on the day. I was happy with how I saw out the race considering how much I was struggling and didn’t feel like the fraud in New York & Boston who completed both of those in pretty shameful fashion. I was happy enough to talk about it afterwards for anyone who wanted to listen and enjoyed receiving some congratulations from any supporters and volunteers who offered it out. My verdict hasn't changed on the race itself.


    Analysis

    I've had 48 hours to digest everything from the day itself, the lead up and the training. My thoughts on all of those are below.

    Firstly, what positives can I take from Sunday? A lot, in my opinion.

    Positives
    I ran my third fastest marathon ever despite the fact that I was struggling with almost a quarter of the race remaining. The time is only seven minutes off what I ran at my very best and I also beat my time from what I consider to be my best executed marathon in Seville of 2014. I continued to try my best all the way to the line, which is very difficult to do when a pb has already gone out the window. When previously in that position in my last two raced marathons, I had downed tools. I grinded out results in less than ideal scenarios in Berlin 2014, Seville 2014 & Dublin 2010, but on those occasions a pb was a certainty and the motivation to continue hurting was a lot higher than last Sunday. For that reason alone, I'm immensely proud of the run.
    I ran fairly comfortably at sub 3 pace for 19m and I now have a realistic MP to base my future training off, rather than two year old times, ambitious targets or predictions based off completely different distances.

    Negatives

    What can I learn from what went wrong? What can I do better? Where can I improve?

    I already knew this, but I need to go back to training at paces relative to my current fitness levels, rather than where I used to be. "You're only as good as your last performance." A very true saying that can be applied to most things in life. I continued to hope I could run a decent pb by training at paces I wanted to be true, rather than what actual results were feeding back to me. I should have taken more notice of this post:
    Looking at what you posted earlier, 1.26 is a damn good time.
    Don't knock it or 'think' that you are at a different place than you are - that'll lead you to mental torture.

    If 1.26 is a solid effort then that's where you're at. Its a great platform to build on for the coming months.

    If you can get yourself into a consistent pattern of training & racing - you'll make superb progress - most of us on here know you have the talent.

    Hansons doesn’t recommend many races during marathon training, but does prescribe a 5k to gauge your marathon pace. My fastest 5ks between October and December when I had started training were 18:00 & 18:03. Based off that using Hansons, VDot & McMillan calculators, I shouldn’t have been aiming for faster than 6:37-6:42 in my MP sessions. That ended up being my target on the day, but there was only one session that fell into that range during my whole marathon training cycle in a week where I didn’t feel too good. Huge mistake. Everything else was faster than 6:35. My HM result of 1:24 in early December also suggested an MP of 6:43-6:45, but I chose to turn a blind eye to that too even though it was pointed out to me at the time:
    El Caballo wrote: »
    First off, it's great to see you getting back into shape man and running well again. Good to see you pull it back a bit too. Just a question on the MP runs and I could be wrong here as I don't know your HR stats but is 6:35 still not a bit on the quick side? The reason I say that is because you ran just a hair under 6:30 pace for a half just over a month ago, your fitness definitely seems to have come on but has it got to the point where 6:35 is aerobic yet?

    Is the pace based on your goal or your current fitness? This may sound critical, not the intention as I think you will agree from what you have wrote in the past that you haven't yet translated your half marathon pace into a marathon so this is where I'm coming from with the questions above as regards to right now rather than where you will be at in London if you get what I'm saying. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts anyway.
    Wow - 6:35 as MP - that would be amazing if you could pull it off.

    Have you any milestones or key sessions that would indicate that you are on target for that.
    The travesty would be to see you aim high and not make the start line.

    The two 10m times I ran five weeks apart also suggested MP of 6:37-6:39, but I still didn’t drop back to this pace. It was probably too late by then anyway. Again I was questioned:
    adrian522 wrote: »
    I know nothing about this plan, but are those sessions meant to be at MP? If so what advantage is there to running them faster?

    Again though, I managed to convince the rightly sceptical poster that I was right and knew what I was doing. So, a lesson learned (again). Train at current (not goal) fitness level. Like I say, I knew this already but it’s been really rammed home to me once again. Ferris B did do that. Ran slower than me in training for 18 weeks, then beat me by five minutes on the day that mattered. The proof is there in black & white on the results website. When I ran Seville, I originally set out running my MP miles just below 8:00min/mile pace (3:30MP). By the end of the plan, my fitness had improved so much that I gave 3:05 a good rattle. Training at faster paces than your current fitness level just burns you out, makes you extra tired, causes you to underperform on race days and in a lot of cases gets you injured. I will be much more conscious of this going forward and do my very best to avoid falling into this trap again.


    Next. I do believe in the HR training from dabbling in it before and you can definitely learn a lot from the readings you get back. I would be pretty confident from my experience of my own running that the below post is also correct:
    FBOT01 wrote: »
    Heading in the right direction, P.

    My twopence worth.

    Based on your historical HR data I would have thought 160-165 is above your MP HR might even be in your LT Zone.

    I think the target for you should be to build the endurance to allow you to run @ 6:30 with a HR less than the 155 avg you ran last week rather than looking at trying to increase avg HR. This will be far more sustainable. Running at 160-165 won't be sustainable over Marathon Distance for you IMHO.

    So, basically my MP runs should have been coming in at around 155-160bpm avg every week. Let’s have a look at what I actually logged (I’ve bolded the runs that I recorded a higher than sustainable 160bpm HR average):
    yaboya1 wrote: »
    Thursday 5th January
    2m w/u @ 7:46 p/m average (136bpm avg)
    6m @ 6:28p/m average (168bpm avg)
    2m c/d @ 8:08p/m average (157bpm)


    This was hellish!
    I've managed two identical sessions in recent weeks far more comfortably, but the average HR here was higher than the 5x1k's on Tuesday or any of my most recent parkruns.

    Thursday 12th January
    2m w/u @ 7:46 p/m average (144bpm avg)
    7m @ 6:37p/m average (163bpm avg)
    2m c/d @ 7:55p/m average (145bpm)


    Got home from work with perfect running conditions prevailing outside. By the time I had changed and headed back out the door, it was a blizzard!
    Even some of the warm up was hard work here with the wind pelting the snow straight in my face. I learned a bit of a lesson from Tuesday though, backing off slightly to ensure a solid consistent workout. Average pace is about eight seconds slower than I've been hitting with these ones lately, but I'll take that allowing for the weather and the fact that I ended up coming to a complete stop in a dead end at one stage.

    Thursday 19th January
    2m w/u @ 8:01p/m average (127bpm avg)
    7m @ 6:34p/m average (155bpm avg)
    2m c/d @ 7:44p/m average (141bpm)


    Very, very happy with this. The recent target for the MP miles has been 6:29p/m but the effort required to hold that felt a bit too high, so I eased off slightly settling for 6:35 pace instead. Although it was only a six second difference, I felt way more comfortable and the HR was nice and low in comparison to some recent MP workouts where it had been skyrocketing. Finished this really strongly too.

    Thursday 26th January
    1.5m w/u @ 8:00p/m average (130bpm avg)
    7m @ 6:34p/m average (155bpm avg)
    1.5m c/d @ 7:34p/m average (140bpm)


    Bit of a snivel today and blowing a gale outside, so was wary not to push it too much with Raheny coming up on Sunday. So I didn't and pleasantly surprised myself with how easy I found this. A doddle! In far from ideal conditions too. With more than 12 weeks to go until London and some improvement in fitness, I think it's fairly realistic that MP might quicken up a tad. Looking good for a pb in Raheny. My first in almost 2 years!

    Thursday 16th February

    2m w/u @ 7:38p/m average (140bpm avg)
    8m @ 6:33p/m average (164bpm avg)
    2m c/d @ 7:51p/m average (150bpm)


    I knew this wouldn't be easy, but considering I found an almost identical session a doddle three weeks ago, I wasn't exactly expecting it to give me too many problems. Pace was at it should be, but the HR was 9bpm higher than last time. A real struggle, but delighted to have it out of the way on target. Spotted overpronator and Sean Hehir within 20 yards of each other on the Furze Road towards the end of this. Must be training together now.

    Thursday 23rd February
    2m w/u @ 7:44p/m average (131bpm avg)
    8m @ 6:32p/m average (161bpm avg)
    2m c/d @ 7:28p/m average (148bpm)


    Storm Doris had as good as gone by the time I got out. There was a little bit of breeze out and it was icy cold, but perfect for a run once you got going. Even so, I wouldn't say I was relishing this as I headed out the door. However, once I got going in the MP miles I actually found it fairly comfortable. I was speeding up slightly towards the end and felt as strong as an ox in the last mile compared to some other occasions where I've just been dying for it to end. Really pleased with that.

    Thursday 2nd March
    2m w/u @ 7:58p/m average (134bpm avg)
    8m @ 6:31p/m average (161bpm avg)
    2m c/d @ 7:56p/m average (142bpm)


    Having breezed through Tuesday's session, I wasn't too worried about this one. I wasn't naive enough to think it would be easy, but expected it to be comfortable enough. I was wrong! I found it very, very difficult. Total contrast to my most previous run. This plan really tests you. Constantly digging into your reserves to see what you come up with. As painful as it can be at times, I really do like it. Suffice to say though, I wasn't looking forward to Sunday's 16 miler after this!

    *I'm beginning to have a theory about my own running. It seems when I put in what seems like a good solid performance (training or racing), that no matter how effortless it may seem at the time, it actually takes a hell of a lot out of me. Raheny is another recent example. Anyway, if I can be guaranteed a nice comfortable run in London achieving the sort of time I want, I'll take being shattered for the following fortnight.

    Thursday 16th March
    1.5m w/u @ 8:08p/m average (125bpm avg)
    9m @ 6:29p/m average (155bpm)
    2m c/d @ 7:36p/m average (146bpm avg)


    Like Tuesday, I was happy to allow a slightly slower pace than normal if required. Again tonight though, my HR was lower than previous MP efforts and the pace was sub 6:30 for the first time in a while. Buzzing after this! So much so that I missed a turn back for home that added an extra half mile onto my cooldown.

    Thursday 23rd March
    2m w/u @ 8:18p/m average (125bpm avg)
    9m @ 6:31p/m average (156bpm)
    2m c/d @ 8:15p/m average (134bpm avg)


    Still far from 100%, but convinced myself that once I got this over with I wouldn't have to run any way 'fast' until next Tuesday. Job done.
    I was thinking to myself afterwards that I'm regularly knocking out 1:30ish half-marathons on a weekly basis, with almost 33% of those miles being w/u & c/d. That can't be a bad thing and definitely something to boost the confidence a bit when you're not feeling as good as you might be.

    Thursday 30th March
    2m w/u @ 7:59p/m average (124bpm avg)
    10m @ 6:30p/m average (158bpm)
    2m c/d @ 7:58p/m average (148bpm avg)


    Despite the stats making it look otherwise, I found this very difficult. Three things I've confirmed from this run are:

    1. - 6:30 will not be my MP.
    2. - I need to do some core work.
    3. - I need a pre-London rub down.


    1. - There's no way I can hold 6:30 pace for 26.22m at the moment. But that's ok as I already conceded that a few weeks ago. This session just confirmed it for me and ensured I don't do anything stupid like going out at that pace in three weeks.

    2. - I have done a grand total of zero core work in this training cycle. I know it's beneficial and have been religious about getting routines in at least once a week in previous successful marathon cycles. However, I just hate doing it and have avoided for that reason in the hope that the miles will be enough to get the job done. I'll do a bit over the next few weeks, not that it will make a huge difference at this stage.

    3. - My legs have started to feel a little weary lately. I meant to organise a sports massage the day after Ballycotton, but it never materialised. I decided to get this difficult week over with on the tired auld planks before giving them what they're craving in the near future. I think that should hopefully leave me feeling somewhat refreshed going into the race.

    Back to the run. I was pretty tired when I got in after this. Five days before my next day off.

    Thursday 6th April
    2m w/u @ 7:52p/m average (132bpm avg)
    10m @ 6:28p/m average (159bpm)
    2m c/d @ 7:50p/m average (148bpm avg)


    As mentioned last week, this will not be my MP. I don't think it will do me any harm to continue running at this pace for the remainder of the plan though. Was out early for this, which seemed to make it even more difficult! There was a howler of a wind blowing which made some of the miles a hell of a lot tougher than others. Mile 9 was one of those and the 6:29 there took much more of an effort than it should have. However, having taken a turn out of the wind early in Mile 10 I kept up the effort and finished off with a 6:16 mile. I've only actually noticed it now on review, as it was completely unintentional. I hope I haven't done any damage.

    Thursday 13th April
    2m w/u @ 7:58p/m average (127bpm avg)
    10m @ 6:32p/m average (151bpm)
    2m c/d @ 7:50p/m average (135bpm avg)


    Did this in the PP at around 6pm. Couldn't believe how empty the place was. Virtually no car traffic and not many pedestrians, runners, cyclists etc. either. A bit weird. Anyway, got this one ticked off as planned. Was wary of doing something stupid at this late stage and made sure not to.


    So, of the twelve MP sessions I logged, 11/12 were faster than the fastest of the MP’s prescribed by any of the three calculators (with the other one being exactly 6:37avg), while 5/12 were above what I believe to be the maximum sustainable marathon HR of 160bpm average. One thing I’m happy about is that I was always honest in my logging about how I was actually feeling and how difficult it felt. I never bluffed about it being easy. This was also alluded to in my log by a regular poster (have to throw a positive comment in to balance everything else ;) ):
    really enjoying this journey and loving the honesty in the updates.

    I've started to view the whole thing as a multi year process, this training cycle is a build up to the next one and then the next one. We'll never stop til we continue to slow down.

    If 6:30 isn't your MP this year - it could be next year. Next year you'll look back on the groundwork done this year.


    Super training.


    Next. What do I think of the Hansons Marathon Method?

    I think it’s an excellent plan. In my opinion it has all the ingredients to fatigue you enough every week, but not too much. It gets you ready for all the difficulties you'll face in the marathon and sets you up for a successful race day. Ferris B ran an 11 minute pb. aero2k ran successive 2:48’s off a previous pb of 2:55 IIRC following this plan. It works! The only reason I failed to hit my target last Sunday was because I didn’t follow their instructions from the start. I didn’t gauge my marathon target off my actual race times, meaning I was running my MP runs too fast, which also had me running my strength runs too fast and maybe even my long runs too fast. The next time I train for a marathon I’ll be using this plan as I have 100% faith it achieves great results when followed correctly. That’s something I failed to do. I totally buy their philosophy and think the 16m long runs you do are far more beneficial than the slower 20 milers you might do in another plan. You also do two pretty tough medium length runs midweek at tasty enough average paces even including the warm-ups & cool-downs. If I’ve any regrets about this whole cycle, it’s that I didn’t just accept where I was in December and train to those paces, because I think if I did I may have actually hit the targets I set myself last Sunday. Instead I failed on all three:
    yaboya1 wrote: »
    Hi Ger.

    What you're insinuating is exactly the philosophy of the authors. They feel that other plans focus far too much on the weekly long run and the hallowed distance of 20 miles (or more). Their attitude is to load the week evenly with tough workouts, so that you're almost always running on tired legs and that the long run (and probably the MP sessions too) feel like the final miles of a marathon rather than the the early ones. The long runs in this plan are generally 25-30% of the total weekly mileage and always coming off two tough sessions in the previous five days. You don't get a 'taper' ahead of them as you do in some other plans. They don't feel a run of further than 16m is necessary as you'll spend too much time on your feet and need more time to recover from that, which in turn will affect your training for the following week. My longest run timewise has been about 1:53/54. This doesn't worry me at all. Seems to worry anyone else I tell about it though. Anyway, I guess we'll find out who's right in three weeks. The Hansons or the rest [IMG]file:///C:\Users\ELAINE~1.KEA\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image003.png[/IMG]

    You could be right about the 6:30 MP, but I'm happy enough to realise that halfway into the race and pick it up. Boston & New York are the two worst races I've ever run at any distance in my life (Boston especially by a long way). The funny thing is the exact same thing caused both horrific experiences. I went out at too fast a pace for my fitness level at the time and paid for it (still paying interest on Boston. I am adamant I am never going to repeat them again (especially Boston). New York was unpleasant, but was a far more gradual slowdown. Boston was hell. I think it's the worst I've ever felt physically after a race too. I was in a bad way for a while afterwards. I was done after 7 miles there. It's a long way home when you've nothing left with almost 20 miles to cover. Even though I've been in plenty of pain in many races, I still enjoyed them at some stage during and reflecting on them after. Not so those two. I'm ashamed of both of them (especially Boston). And I can't blame anything bar my own stupidity.

    For London, I have three main goals:

    1. - Run a significant pb (5mins+)
    2. - Run a negative split (have still yet to manage it, even pacing DCM
    3. - Mile 1 to be my slowest of the race. Mile 26 to be my fastest.

    If I achieve those three goals, I will be over the moon. Going out at 6:30 and blowing up doesn't interest me. 6:30 per mile for the distance still wouldn't get me under 2:50, so I'm happy enough to be more conservative starting off. If I feel really good, who knows? I may pick it up and get close to that number, but I'd much rather be chasing that down at the end than clinging onto 2:52 or so and going backwards. My last two raced marathons have featured bigger detonations than Hiroshima and I don't think anyone wants another one of them. I achieved goals 2 & 3 in Ballycotton and felt a million dollars climbing the hill in the last mile. That's the feeling I want going by Big Ben.


    The Future?

    At the moment I’m primarily focused on recovering properly before I do anything else. I’m almost certain to run the Charleville HM in September having heard such good reports, but I’m not going to sign up for anything else until I’m back training because I don’t want to put pressure on myself to come back too soon. Marathon wise, I’m finished racing for at least 18 months. I’m going to enjoy running a few other distances and might even join a club. I’m likely to pace the DCM again in October, but I won’t be racing one before Autumn 2018 at the earliest. I’ve put myself under pressure to run all the big ones while I was able and had the qualifying times to do so, but now that I’ve done that I feel I can relax a bit and play the next one by ear.


    However, one niggly thought I do have is that’s it’s just not my distance. I want to be wrong, but results suggest otherwise:

    Year|5k (VDot)|HM (VDot)|Marathon (VDot)
    2014|17:15 (59)|1:20 (58)|2:59 (54)
    2015|17:20 (58)|1:21 (57)|2:59 (54)
    2017|18:00 (56)|1:24 (55)|3:06 (51)


    It’s hard to argue with the facts.
    Over and out for now…………


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,936 ✭✭✭annapr


    yaboya1 wrote: »
    I was happy enough to talk about it afterwards for anyone who wanted to listen

    ...at least you didn't almost miss the plane this time :p

    Great analysis, lots of good lessons there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭overpronator


    Measured analysis there Peter, expected nothing else.

    Its a great post in general terms too for marathon training and one ill refer back to before my next block.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,119 ✭✭✭Mrs Mc


    What a fantastic read I don't know how you remember so much detail it's usually all a blur of wtf am I doing this to myself. Glad you are adopting the glass half full approach even to your lessons learned compared with how disappointed you were in Boston. Enjoy the break. You actually make london sound very appealing as a race. Well done :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,415 ✭✭✭Singer


    Viciously honest as ever Peter, solid analysis and also a great advertisement of the value of keeping a training log on this site with very clueful and interested parties commenting. Fair play for keeping things going and finishing it as well as you could on the day. Also your report is a great advertisement for London, it's now moved well up my bucket list as a result!

    Ideally, what should you have done so? Trained for 2:59 or so based off your 5k time, and run a better race on the day? It's not like you tore off at 6:30 and crashed and burned as a result.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,610 ✭✭✭yaboya1


    Singer wrote: »
    Viciously honest as ever Peter, solid analysis and also a great advertisement of the value of keeping a training log on this site with very clueful and interested parties commenting. Fair play for keeping things going and finishing it as well as you could on the day. Also your report is a great advertisement for London, it's now moved well up my bucket list as a result!

    Ideally, what should you have done so? Trained for 2:59 or so based off your 5k time, and run a better race on the day? It's not like you tore off at 6:30 and crashed and burned as a result.

    Yes, something like that but probably even faster. If I'd trained towards 2:55 the way the plan prescribed (6:40min/mile MP sessions, I would have been running my strength runs at 6:30min/mile too. Maybe then I wouldn't have been as exhausted, my fitness would have improved more and I'd have been better prepared on race day to run the time I wanted. Maybe.

    I've completed 11 marathons now and I still haven't managed to figure out how to train or run one properly. As I said to Murph_D yesterday, one day I will and I'll blow my target out of the water.

    Until then though, I'll continue to look silly predicting times I can't achieve, running positive splits in the process......


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 743 ✭✭✭Ferris B


    Great running and detailed report P. It was a pleasure spending time with you and E over the weekend.

    I disagree with you on whether the marathon is your distance. You have oodles of talent, far more than me, and it definitely can be your distance if you want it. Though I don't think 'you will blow your target out of the water' as you mentioned. Maybe you were only joking?

    We both agree the Hanson program works but choosing your target time is critical. I think as has been suggested you aimed just a tad too high. I probably did too by a couple of mins hence I faded in last few miles.

    Bring on the next program but this time no building in buffer weeks. Do what it says on the tin from day 1 and you should go at least sub 2:55.


Advertisement