Bouncer punches woman who tried to punch him.

pilly · 21-04-2017 12:47PM

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

Any particular reason you answered the question I posed to another poster pilly?

FWIW fair play (genuinely) to you for teaching your children not to react violently, I'm glad to hear they have internalised it. Although at the same time it's a pity we have to laud people for teaching what is supposed to be normal social interaction. I agree a strong element of the problem is down to how these people were raised as children.

I actually thought the question was directed at me.

As an aside what does FWIW stand for?

ZeitgeistGlee · 21-04-2017 12:48PM

pilly wrote: »

I actually thought the question was directed at me.

As an aside what does FWIW stand for?

No worries.

FWIW - For what it's worth.

21-04-2017 12:52PM

pilly wrote: »

Absolutely I wouldn't call that assault.

It's attempted assault, end of. His actions are the only thing that prevented it. I'd say she immediately would've took more swings until she clocked him one. He got there first with a quick-fire slap and it stopped her in her tracks.

pilly wrote: »

I'd immediately think that the woman obviously has mental health issues and deal with it in an manner that was appropriate. That would not involve punching her in the face.

Amazing that you have the instincts to perform a psychological evaluation there and then while someone is attempting to knock your block off. Bullsh*t. Plenty of scumbags are a law onto themselves and have no bother lashing out because they're bullies or just basic filth. If a stranger comes at you looking to do you damage, you're damn well within your rights to give it back in equal measure.

pilly wrote: »

And before the usual "hard men" come on here saying "you've obviously never been assaulted", I have been. I've worked in bars and had bottles thrown at me, still never saw the need the punch anyone in the face, man or woman.

I'm assuming you mean glass bottles here? A glass bottle being used as a weapon is enough to literally kill you if it's been thrown at you. But yeah, extend courtesy to the assailant, they're probably mentally ill sure.

pilly wrote: »

Do you actually think someone who takes a job as a bouncer shouldn't expect people to swing at them every so often? They'd want to be living in cloud cuckoo land not to anticipate that and therefore are much better positioned that the rest of us to know how to deal with it.

I think you're generally a very good poster pilly but on this subject, I very much feel you're the one in cloud cuckoo land.

Tilikum · 21-04-2017 12:53PM

Did he actually connect properly though? Was his fist closed? It's hard to see. Imo if a bouncer punched a women full on in the face, I can't see her standing after it, especially not in high heels.

Still nowhere near as bad as that bus driver punch a few yrs back.....

*shudders*

21-04-2017 12:55PM

shamrock55 wrote: »

I think that guy is a disgrace tbh,he is wrong to hit her,if i was there and seen him do that i would have whacked him one,a bully and nothing else

She struck first, is she a disgrace for attacking him? What's your thoughts on her? Is she a bully?

Pat Mustard · 21-04-2017 12:58PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

We're not in a court of law now though, we're on a website where particularly in After Hours

You made your mind up before watching the video, which shows extreme bias.

21-04-2017 01:00PM

Wintergirl wrote: »

She didn't assault him, she didn't even make contact, she was about as much threat as a toddler, she was less in fact because a toddler wouldn't have been drunk as a skunk.

If she had actually managed to land that wild swing then it would be different.

Yeah this line of she's just like a wee toddler is gonna get you nowhere. She's a fully grown adult. You do realise drunk people have killed people plenty of times too don't you, so using being drunk as a defence of being defenceless is a little na?ve? Also, it's probably safe to assume she'd have taken plenty more wild swings until she did land one. She was prevented from doing so.

Sofiztikated · 21-04-2017 01:01PM

Tilikum wrote: »

Did he actually connect properly though? Was his fist closed? It's hard to see. Imo if a bouncer punched a women full on in the face, I can't see her standing after it, especially not in high heels.

Still nowhere near as bad as that bus driver punch a few yrs back.....

*shudders*

It looks to me as an open handed slap, barely above a light push, using her own momentum to get her away.

She totters, fixes her hair, and looks to be going back towards him when the video stops.

ChikiChiki · 21-04-2017 01:01PM

He has every right to do it in this age of equality. I wouldn't have it in me myself, as that's how I have been conditioned, but he has every right. Self defense.

pilly · 21-04-2017 01:02PM

Omackeral wrote: »

It's attempted assault, end of. His actions are the only thing that prevented it. I'd say she immediately would've took more swings until she clocked him one. He got there first with a quick-fire slap and it stopped her in her tracks.

Amazing that you have the instincts to perform a psychological evaluation there and then while someone is attempting to knock your block off. Bullsh*t. Plenty of scumbags are a law onto themselves and have no bother lashing out because they're bullies or just basic filth. If a stranger comes at you looking to do you damage, you're damn well within your rights to give it back in equal measure.

I'm assuming you mean glass bottles here? A glass bottle being used as a weapon is enough to literally kill you if it's been thrown at you. But yeah, extend courtesy to the assailant, they're probably mentally ill sure.

I think you're generally a very good poster pilly but on this subject, I very much feel you're the one in cloud cuckoo land.

Absolutely not in cloud cuckoo land here omackeral, it's an issue that really worries me tbh.

I hate the rise in violence between young people that's happening and it's purely from this whole attitude of "someone comes at you have to go harder". Where does it end? In murder.

And I'm not from a sheltered upbringing or a posh area where these incidents didn't happen, they did and yet all my children have managed never to engage in violence as I have myself.

Truth is, if you're in a public place and someone is coming at you there are always other options.

For example, someone throws a bottle at me, what do I gain if I go and punch the head off them? Nothing bar sore hands and maybe more injuries.

What do I gain by calling the police? The person gets charged and rightly so.

The other example you're responding to was me answering the question if a little aul one punched me in Tescos what would I do. Again, what would I gain if I punched her back? Nothing. In fact I would hate myself.

Okay, the exception to the rule for me would be someone attacking you down a dark alley when there's no-one around, then you have to do what you can to survive.

The point I'm trying to make is that if it's bred into you not to react violently then your 1st instinct is never to punch someone in the face and you find other ways of dealing with situations.

Glenster · 21-04-2017 01:05PM

Wintergirl wrote: »

She didn't assault him, she didn't even make contact, she was about as much threat as a toddler, she was less in fact because a toddler wouldn't have been drunk as a skunk.

If she had actually managed to land that wild swing then it would be different.

The point is that the next punch might have hit him.

He wasn't punching her out of revenge, or to make restitution for the damage of her first swing.

He was defending himself from her next punch.

ZeitgeistGlee · 21-04-2017 01:08PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

She totters, fixes her hair, and looks to be going back towards him when the video stops.

I do love how these kinds of videos always end after they've got through with the bit they want to get offended by rather than showing the whole incident. I wonder would any of those totally against the bouncer change their mind if it turned out she tried to attack him again after the video ended.

raze_them_all_ · 21-04-2017 01:12PM

I used to be a doorman. Had an incident one night where i had to remove girl from my homeplace out of the bar cue hsr spitting on me and attempting to punch me, told her to cop on etc. Grand says the people that's how it should be done. Cue a scrap between two boys, i go to separate it grab one of the lads, cue a kick in the bolox from behind. Yup the little bitch had saw what had happened and took advantage. So by being nice and not putting her down first time i took a kick in the bolox for my troubles and was put in a way worse situation.

Basically you don't know what drunk assholes will do and unless you've had to deal with the worst drunken assholes night in and night out and see what counts do to each other every week you can't really say he was in the wrong

WinnyThePoo · 21-04-2017 01:13PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I did look at the video just now, I actually avoided it up to now because who wants to see a woman being thumped? But for all the "he reacted on instinct, you don't know what happened before that", etc - bullsh*t. In the video it's clear that he ducked to avoid the slap, so it can't be argued that he didn't see it coming, and if this were to happen in Ireland, then he could well find himself still under investigation because he had the opportunity to walk away -

(4) The fact that a person had an opportunity to retreat before using force shall be taken into account, in conjunction with other relevant evidence, in determining whether the use of force was reasonable.

Source: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/26/section/20/enacted/en/html#sec20

I wouldn't call the force he used reasonable either, he didn't just hit her a quick slap, it was a full-on follow-through of a smack.

So wait. Youve spent the last two days commentating on the thread. Yet you didn't even bother to watch the video.

How is anyone supposed to take you seriously.

Glenster · 21-04-2017 01:14PM

pilly wrote: »

I hate the rise in violence between young people that's happening and it's purely from this whole attitude of "someone comes at you have to go harder". Where does it end? In murder.

You're acting as though its a bloodfeud or something.

If she swung at him and he went around to her house the day and then had a pop at her. That would be bad. Agreed.

But that didn't happen, she swung, he swung, end of.

One eyed Jack · 21-04-2017 01:16PM

Pat Mustard wrote: »

You made your mind up before watching the video, which shows extreme bias.

I'd freely admit I'm biased, of course it's wrong IMO for a man to raise his hand to a woman, and common sense would indicate to most people that I also think it's wrong for a woman to raise her hand to a man. Naturally I'm going to be extremely biased because I am a man, and I would hold any man to that same standard, and if I were a woman (which I'm not), I would hold women to that same standard.

I hadn't seen the video and I didn't feel it was necessary to see the video given that people here were giving the impression that the girl in question had made contact with the doorman when she threw a punch, and I imagined the doorman reacted instinctively with a quick slap (you know the way Gardaí will often collect witness statements, it's not like anyone on the jury had to be there either).

The doorman would still IMO have been wrong in those circumstances, but when I watched the video, it was actually much worse than I had imagined - she threw a drunken punch that he saw coming, ducked, and then instead of turning and walking away, lashed out at her. Of course I'm going to be biased as I'd also want to defend the vast majority of men who aren't scumbags, and I'd want to defend the vast majority of security staff who aren't all hot-heads, who face dealing with that sort of reputation daily, because of the actions of a small minority.

gctest50 · 21-04-2017 01:18PM

Wintergirl wrote: »

She didn't assault him, she didn't even make contact, ...........

If she had actually managed to land that wild swing then it would be different.

Nope.

(b) causes another to believe on reasonable grounds that he or she is likely immediately to be subjected to any such force or impact,

21-04-2017 01:18PM

Pilly, I trained Krav Maga for a couple of years and they teach what you're saying actually, consider your options. That's what I'd do if I was out and about in town or in public. I'd absolutely look to get out of there asap if someone was assaulting or trying to assault me if I could. If you walk or run away, your chances of being hurt further or having a subsequent charge and court date brought against you drastically go down. However, sometimes you're cornered and you have to fight back. This magical restraining isn't something you can always just do. Sometimes, your assailant will be frenzied enough that their sheer will to cause you damage can only be quashed by a bit of force.

In my job, and I assume bouncers too, you can't always just get out of there. You're often cornered in and you don't know if more people are gonna get involved or if the perpetrator(s)have a weapon. A lot of the time myself and my colleagues are outnumbered so fighting back is required and we're covered by law for same. I know you scoffed at the idea that they might have a weapon concealed on them but I've seen it and I've seen the results of it. People's faces cut so badly by a blade that you can see their teeth through their cheeks. These phrases of 'man up' and 'worth your salt' are grand to spout but I don't believe anyone deserves to be scarred for life because of some jumped up thug. Stop them in their tracks if they're intent on doing you damage.

Sofiztikated · 21-04-2017 01:18PM

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

I do love how these kinds of videos always end after they've got through with the bit they want to get offended by rather than showing the whole incident. I wonder would any of those totally against the bouncer change their mind if it turned out she tried to attack him again after the video ended.

Or what happened to catch the eye of the videographer in the first place.

She had been ejected from the premises for a reason. And somewhere along the line, she thinks an appropriate reaction is to wildly swing a punch at someones head.

Even if she had been ejected from the premises for an incorrect reason, the appropriate reaction is NOT to swing for someone.

irelandrover · 21-04-2017 01:19PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'd freely admit I'm biased, of course it's wrong IMO for a man to raise his hand to a woman, and common sense would indicate to most people that I also think it's wrong for a woman to raise her hand to a man. Naturally I'm going to be extremely biased because I am a man, and I would hold any man to that same standard, and if I were a woman (which I'm not), I would hold women to that same standard.

I hadn't seen the video and I didn't feel it was necessary to see the video given that people here were giving the impression that the girl in question had made contact with the doorman when she threw a punch, and I imagined the doorman reacted instinctively with a quick slap (you know the way Gardaí will often collect witness statements, it's not like anyone on the jury had to be there either).

The doorman would still IMO have been wrong in those circumstances, but when I watched the video, it was actually much worse than I had imagined - she threw a drunken punch that he saw coming, ducked, and then instead of turning and walking away, lashed out at her. Of course I'm going to be biased as I'd also want to defend the vast majority of men who aren't scumbags, and I'd want to defend the vast majority of security staff who aren't all hot-heads, who face dealing with that sort of reputation daily, because of the actions of a small minority.

How could he walk away when he has to stay on the door as part of his job.

ZeitgeistGlee · 21-04-2017 01:29PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'd freely admit I'm biased, of course it's wrong IMO for a man to raise his hand to a woman, and common sense would indicate to most people that I also think it's wrong for a woman to raise her hand to a man. Naturally I'm going to be extremely biased because I am a man, and I would hold any man to that same standard, and if I were a woman (which I'm not), I would hold women to that same standard.

Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but are you can't hold a woman to the same standard as a man for violent conduct because you're not a woman? Surely all people should all be held to the same standard irrespective of gender?

WHIP IT! · 21-04-2017 01:30PM

Omackeral wrote: »

What would you teach your daughter? It's ok to have a pop at a man cos he can't hit you back? People should be telling their sons and daughters it's never ok to hit anyone, male or female. It's that simple IMO. Why make the distinction?

There are plenty of occasions when punching someone is absolutely OK and necessary... what a ridiculous statement.

Sofiztikated · 21-04-2017 01:31PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'd freely admit I'm biased, of course it's wrong IMO for a man to raise his hand to a woman, and common sense would indicate to most people that I also think it's wrong for a woman to raise her hand to a man. Naturally I'm going to be extremely biased because I am a man, and I would hold any man to that same standard, and if I were a woman (which I'm not), I would hold women to that same standard.

I hadn't seen the video and I didn't feel it was necessary to see the video given that people here were giving the impression that the girl in question had made contact with the doorman when she threw a punch, and I imagined the doorman reacted instinctively with a quick slap (you know the way Gardaí will often collect witness statements, it's not like anyone on the jury had to be there either).

The doorman would still IMO have been wrong in those circumstances, but when I watched the video, it was actually much worse than I had imagined - she threw a drunken punch that he saw coming, ducked, and then instead of turning and walking away, lashed out at her. Of course I'm going to be biased as I'd also want to defend the vast majority of men who aren't scumbags, and I'd want to defend the vast majority of security staff who aren't all hot-heads, who face dealing with that sort of reputation daily, because of the actions of a small minority.

I'm nowhere near a thug, I've never struck a woman (or a male, except when I was in a playground scrap when I was a kid) and I still think the bouncer was well within reasonable action.

You haven't seen what happened before hand.
You don't see what happens next.
He couldn't turn and walk away because 1) turning his back on someone that just attacked him is infinitely stupid, and 2) he has a duty to protect the premises and patrons.
There was enough force to push her away, but not enough to knock her over, even in her drunken, heel wearing state.

One eyed Jack · 21-04-2017 01:32PM

irelandrover wrote: »

How could he walk away when he has to stay on the door as part of his job.

He has plenty of space there to walk away back to the door? Jesus if he couldn't figure out any other way to diffuse the situation other than to hit her a smack after she failed miserably to harm him in any way whatsoever and presented no credible threat to him whatsoever, then really he deserves to be under investigation by the police.

irelandrover · 21-04-2017 01:35PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

He has plenty of space there to walk away back to the door? Jesus if he couldn't figure out any other way to diffuse the situation other than to hit her a smack after she failed miserably to harm him in any way whatsoever and presented no credible threat to him whatsoever, then really he deserves to be under investigation by the police.

Somehow i domnt think that if he had ducked the punch and then walked back 4 metres that she'd have stopped.

One eyed Jack · 21-04-2017 01:37PM

irelandrover wrote: »

Somehow i domnt think that if he had ducked the punch and then walked back 4 metres that she'd have stopped.

It's entirely more plausible than the chances she's Bruce Lee in a dress!

beauf · 21-04-2017 01:41PM

He could just block and restrained her. People have died after a single punch and falling and striking their head. It was an over reaction IMO but was self defense.

beauf · 21-04-2017 01:44PM

Omackeral wrote: »

Pilly, I trained Krav Maga for a couple of years and they teach what you're saying actually, consider your options. That's what I'd do if I was out and about in town or in public. I'd absolutely look to get out of there asap if someone was assaulting or trying to assault me if I could. If you walk or run away, your chances of being hurt further or having a subsequent charge and court date brought against you drastically go down. However, sometimes you're cornered and you have to fight back. This magical restraining isn't something you can always just do. Sometimes, your assailant will be frenzied enough that their sheer will to cause you damage can only be quashed by a bit of force.

In my job, and I assume bouncers too, you can't always just get out of there. You're often cornered in and you don't know if more people are gonna get involved or if the perpetrator(s)have a weapon. A lot of the time myself and my colleagues are outnumbered so fighting back is required and we're covered by law for same. I know you scoffed at the idea that they might have a weapon concealed on them but I've seen it and I've seen the results of it. People's faces cut so badly by a blade that you can see their teeth through their cheeks. These phrases of 'man up' and 'worth your salt' are grand to spout but I don't believe anyone deserves to be scarred for life because of some jumped up thug. Stop them in their tracks if they're intent on doing you damage.

Valid points.

For me this video is nothing like the scenario's you're describing.

Granted you never know how things can escalate.

21-04-2017 01:44PM

Omackeral wrote: »

What would you teach your daughter? It's ok to have a pop at a man cos he can't hit you back? People should be telling their sons and daughters it's never ok to hit anyone, male or female. It's that simple IMO. Why make the distinction?

WHIP IT! wrote: »

There are plenty of occasions when punching someone is absolutely OK and necessary... what a ridiculous statement.

Dunno if you've been following the thread, I've literally said if someone hits you, you hit them back about 6 or 7 times. That statement above inferred that you teach your kids not to hit anyone first for no reason. I'd also have zero problem hitting someone back if they hit me first.

See a couple of my posts here for example.

Omackeral wrote: »

Or what about the other adage, ''if someone hits you, hit them back''. She's man enough to hit someone, so fcuk her if she gets a slap back.

Omackeral wrote: »

Loads of parents tell you never hit someone unless they hit you first. You've honestly never heard that? I find that hard to believe.

the_syco · 21-04-2017 01:46PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

I'm kind of conflicted on this one.

Because you do not want to treat women equally? That's very sexist of you :pac:

Bouncer punches woman who tried to punch him.

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