Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum
Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.
Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.
Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026
Social Justice Warriors - poisoning Rational Discourse?
Comments
-
-
-
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
-
-
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
-
1) immigrants aren't taking their jobs. Their jobs are being moved to foreign countries and being lost to automation.
2) the list of things you say are getting more expensive simply is false. A lot of those were more expensive a few years ago or are the same price in line with inflation.
The problem is that these two things are true and right wing scare mongering cannot admit it. Those lies are what brought around Trump and Brexit.
Now, this isn't me shouting you down or saying you're not entitled to your opinion. I know that's how the butt hurt right like to feel, but it's not the case.
Yeah, about that "truth" thing....
1) Some jobs are going abroad, sure. So what are all the immigrants doing here then? By your logic it can only be A) They don't have jobs and are sponging off the state, or
they have magical jobs that come from magic-land. Take a look around the spars in the city center....how many irish people can you count?
2) The cost of living is getting ridiculous. The only reason you wouldn't notice this is because you either A) don't feel any impact (lucky you!), or have yet to shed the naivety of youth. Cost of living is going through the roof (if you can afford one, that is). As a tangent to add on here, where do you think immigrants live? In the tents they bring with them? Sure them dirty irish people wouldn't want to live in the immigrant houses, right?
On the back of that, I see another post by you along the same tired lines of "but the irish don't want to do those jobs!". Bull****.
Heres a personal experience of mine from way back. Was in collge, quite poor, desperate to get a job so as I could pay increasing rents and college fees (all those things that aren't changing in your version of the truth, even way back).
Apply for a job in local shop in city center. No problem, was told to turn up the next week, make sure to have a uniform etc etc. Turn up on the start day, get to work and no problems at all. I did notice that I was the only irish person working there (staff of maybe 10 or so, all same nationality), but sure it didn't mean anything to me (at the time!). The girl showing me around the various tasks seemed taken aback that I was there at all. Again, just brushed it off as an oddity. After a couple of hours, this girl approaches the manager/owner (the only other irish person) and has a quiet word.
20 minutes later I'm told "oh sorry, there was a mistake, we had already hired someone else." Being young and naïve I just accepted that.
Week or so later I go into this shop and can see the new person....now give a guess....do you think they were irish?
I don't even blame immigrants for behaving like this, sewing up jobs and making sure their friends etc get first pick. What I DO take issue with is the bizarre irish people who think this is a good idea, or maybe a non-issue.
So back on point, this whole thing about irish people not wanting to do certain jobs....bull****, man. I learned, quite quickly, over the years when I was dependent on such jobs that there was no point in applying for them. Take one look around and if there are no irish pople to be sen....you aint gonna get the job.
There I also the stigma that irish people don't want to be seen to be working alongside immigrants as it is, in essence, signalling that they are lower than their fellow irish people. Contradictory in some regards....but that's something that is NEVER raised. Always the same old dribble (from whatever developed country) "oh sure the peasants don't want to work those jobs". What a catch-22 spin of ludicrosity!!!
Or in other words....you can take your "truth" and stick it where it belongs, right up your ignorant ****0 -
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
And its the liberals who shut down conversation.
Like I said, without a hint of irony there it is.
I apologised for that, its not constructive. But to pick that single sentence and use it as a way to dismiss every single other thing I said....man, that's a tactic.
The "left" (if you want to put it that way), are becoming increasingly transparent. I haven't been on boards for long, but the sheer amount of deflection I have already gotten is crazy. It seems to be a combination of...
Whataboutisms.....the irish did something centuries ago, therefore....end of conversation.
Ask questions that are deliberate in closing conversation.....ask for statistics, ask for proof of numbers.....then question the validity of said numbers.....meanwhile there will be nothing of substance put forward....just the question itself to de-rail. (never mention numbers because there is no hope that these people will accept them, no matter how solid they might be, stick to qualitative is my lesson from this!)
"Your argument is so ridiculous/childish/stupid/racist/etc that I'm not even gonna reply!" ......end of conversation.
As in the case of the poster Jaylop that I quoted, he states certain things as absolutely true. But rather than defend it (because he knows its indefensible, probably....hopefully!), just scuttles off.
Heres the thing........when faced with such non-reactions it becomes increasingly frustrating. Then, naturally, that leads to a person coming across as angry sometimes.
And guess what happens then? "Oh you're so annoyed I'm not going to reply, you shut the conversation down"
0 -
Advertisement
-
-
-
mariaalice wrote: »There is a vast difference between someone with a reasoned cogent evidence based argument verses an opinion based on predigest, antidote, stereotypes, irrational fears, and down right nastiness.
A point to consider social justice in a broad sense can be boiled down to this.
All Men are Created Equal ( Judeo-Christian traditional position ) verses all will be made equal.
First of all, about the "all created equal" statement, I'll be a lot more willing to accept that general equality when there are huge numbers of irish people emigrating to a muslim country, not integrating for a large part, the irish government funding the set up of catholic churches in muslim countries, a bunch of them killing those muslims, setting up rape/grooming parties for small muslim children, demanding to take part in national conversations etc etc. Or vice versa, when immigrants behave like us. Us like them, them like us....then its all equal. When it isn't a one-way street, I'm all onboard for equality. (Not to be picking on muslims in particular, immigration is basically one-way no matter creed or religion, and to qualify my statement further, no, not all muslims are in rape gangs or terrorists, but I do consider just one of those incidents too many for the child, for example)
As for evidence-based argument...that's very true, such as the poster I quoted above stating "truth" only to disappear afterwards. I'll say it again, its just another tactic.
A problem appears when such evidence based debate goes in too far of a direction. For example, I posted before that according to a debate I had seen (that seemed reputable) 10 to 15% of muslims were radicalised according to intelligence agencies.
My main point was that even a small percentage of 1.6 billion people is a startling number.
Now, rather than debate the qualitative statement I was asked for evidence of this 10 to 15% number....I gave it a half-hearted attempt before conceding that I wasn't able to ascertain the source of that number (who could, in 15 odd minutes?)
The problem was that these people demanding numbers, seemingly, had one agenda in mind, namely to disqualify the statement in its entirety, to brush it all completely under the carpet. And they succeeded.
I could have asked the opposing question, "prove to me statistically the number of muslims that are NOT radicalised". But of course that's a very difficult question, so I didn't ask.
You know where the conversation went afterwards? nowhere. Its a tactic, in my opinion.
Heres a simple example.
Person A: "Theres a tractor rolling down the hill towards us! It looks like it, it sounds like it, its at the top of a hill, we're directly beneath at the bottom of the hill....it looks bad!
Person B: "But really, can you prove it? I'm gonna sit here till you research it, and meanwhile do nothing else but sit here."
Analogies....you never know where they'll go 0 -
If someone has a personal opinion on something that they don't want people to know about then keep it to themselves or else be man enough to stand behind it. Anything I say here I'd say in person and my views are known to all who know me.
What has this got to do with what I asked? I'm talking about smearing people's home addresses and work addresses all over the internet with the specific or at least implied request that an angry mob harass said individuals, or their employers, and attempt to make their lives miserable.
In my book, part of freedom of speech means it's not ok for you to be punished by anybody for speaking your mind. Otherwise the freedom is meaningless and confined to theory only. Anybody on any side who demands that a person be fired for expressing an opinion is a vile scumbag - I doubt anybody would defend assholes like Iona Institute for engaging in such behaviour, but apparently SJWs get a free pass on this?
That said, I don't think that's on, but is it as bad as bombing abortion clinics or murdering those who work there?
Not comparing like with like there. The left wing equivalent of right wing terrorists would be the likes of the Real IRA for instance. Nobody is comparing no-platforming with violence, they're in different leagues - both exist on the left and the right, and both are unacceptable.0 -
hatrickpatrick wrote: »What has this got to do with what I asked? I'm talking about smearing people's home addresses and work addresses all over the internet with the specific or at least implied request that an angry mob harass said individuals, or their employers, and attempt to make their lives miserable.
In my book, part of freedom of speech means it's not ok for you to be punished by anybody for speaking your mind. Otherwise the freedom is meaningless and confined to theory only. Anybody on any side who demands that a person be fired for expressing an opinion is a vile scumbag - I doubt anybody would defend assholes like Iona Institute for engaging in such behaviour, but apparently SJWs get a free pass on this?
Not comparing like with like there. The left wing equivalent of right wing terrorists would be the likes of the Real IRA for instance. Nobody is comparing no-platforming with violence, they're in different leagues - both exist on the left and the right, and both are unacceptable.
What an amazing load of old hoop. There's no left wing equivalent of people who bomb abortion clinics. The real Ira don't exist because they're liberal thinkers.
I also literally said that "it's not on" so your entire rant is stupid because I agreed that it shouldn't happen so why would you say I'm defending it?0 -
I apologised for that, its not constructive. But to pick that single sentence and use it as a way to dismiss every single other thing I said....man, that's a tactic.
The "left" (if you want to put it that way), are becoming increasingly transparent. I haven't been on boards for long, but the sheer amount of deflection I have already gotten is crazy. It seems to be a combination of...
Whataboutisms.....the irish did something centuries ago, therefore....end of conversation.
Ask questions that are deliberate in closing conversation.....ask for statistics, ask for proof of numbers.....then question the validity of said numbers.....meanwhile there will be nothing of substance put forward....just the question itself to de-rail. (never mention numbers because there is no hope that these people will accept them, no matter how solid they might be, stick to qualitative is my lesson from this!)
"Your argument is so ridiculous/childish/stupid/racist/etc that I'm not even gonna reply!" ......end of conversation.
As in the case of the poster Jaylop that I quoted, he states certain things as absolutely true. But rather than defend it (because he knows its indefensible, probably....hopefully!), just scuttles off.
Heres the thing........when faced with such non-reactions it becomes increasingly frustrating. Then, naturally, that leads to a person coming across as angry sometimes.
And guess what happens then? "Oh you're so annoyed I'm not going to reply, you shut the conversation down"
You manage to wrap about 15 insults into three posts and you want me to reply with substance, in a post where you literally accuse me of being ignorant. But I'm the one who's shutting down debate tactically?? Incredible really. What sort fo bubble are you living in that you expect people to spend their free time online debating something of you can't even be remotely civil to them?Right, let me apologise for getting upset at your insane level of ignorance (in my opinion.)
Now....this is your chance to reply with substance....
Apologise while throwing in another insult. Nice.:rolleyes:
Here's I'll reply to you points in bold below so as not to be accused of scuttling off.Yeah, about that "truth" thing....
1) Some jobs are going abroad, sure. So what are all the immigrants doing here then? By your logic it can only be A) They don't have jobs and are sponging off the state, or they have magical jobs that come from magic-land. Take a look around the spars in the city center....how many irish people can you count?
1) I can count reasonably well thanks.
2) The majority of low level manufacturing jobs which are the ones that people are mostly complaining about not being there any more are being lost to outsourcing to other countries. This isn't brand new information and shouldn't really need to be debated.
3) Immigrants come here for a variety of reasons. The most common immigration in Ireland would be from other European countries and that's economic. There's nothing you can do about that unless you want to leave the EU.
4) The majority of Muslim immigrants are coming to seek asylum or are refugees. They can't work so are not the reason you're losing your job.
5) If you can't get a job in a Spar but someone with limited English can then I suggest the problem isn't with the foreign person.
2) The cost of living is getting ridiculous. The only reason you wouldn't notice this is because you either A) don't feel any impact (lucky you!), or have yet to shed the naivety of youth. Cost of living is going through the roof (if you can afford one, that is). As a tangent to add on here, where do you think immigrants live? In the tents they bring with them? Sure them dirty irish people wouldn't want to live in the immigrant houses, right?
I don't live in Dublin so I assume you're talking about that but the things that were listed were the likes of petrol, water, healthcare. IN the last 5/6 years none of those have increased in cost. In fact petrol and diesel have fallen a bit. If he/you had listed the cost of renting in Dublin then I'd say fair enough, that has gone up a lot.
And just to be clear, I work hard but live month to month, I own my own house so I guess I have "shed the naivety of youth"
Again, if you want us to leave the EU so Eastern Europeans can't come and take you housing while contributing to the growth in our economy then by all means start a thread and campaign for it. Otherwise, moaning about where they live is pointless.
On the back of that, I see another post by you along the same tired lines of "but the irish don't want to do those jobs!". Bull****.
Heres a personal experience of mine from way back. Was in collge, quite poor, desperate to get a job so as I could pay increasing rents and college fees (all those things that aren't changing in your version of the truth, even way back).
Rents wern't mentioned. Nor was education costs. Had they been I'd have said yes. Just to recap to make it easy on you, here's the list of things kupus posted...
Electricity going up
water going up
gas going up
petrol going up
transport going up
food bills going up.
health bills
See. no rent and no college.
Apply for a job in local shop in city center. No problem, was told to turn up the next week, make sure to have a uniform etc etc. Turn up on the start day, get to work and no problems at all. I did notice that I was the only irish person working there (staff of maybe 10 or so, all same nationality), but sure it didn't mean anything to me (at the time!). The girl showing me around the various tasks seemed taken aback that I was there at all. Again, just brushed it off as an oddity. After a couple of hours, this girl approaches the manager/owner (the only other irish person) and has a quiet word.
20 minutes later I'm told "oh sorry, there was a mistake, we had already hired someone else." Being young and naïve I just accepted that.
Week or so later I go into this shop and can see the new person....now give a guess....do you think they were irish?
Maybe after 20 minutes they realised you weren't up for the job? But even if it was their own little cartel (and that does happen everywhere in the world with nationalities looking after their own) it means nothing on a grand scale.
I don't even blame immigrants for behaving like this, sewing up jobs and making sure their friends etc get first pick. What I DO take issue with is the bizarre irish people who think this is a good idea, or maybe a non-issue.
A few Polish or whereever working in a charity shop, yeah I don't really care tbh. I know plenty of places that will only hire Irish, is that a good idea?
So back on point, this whole thing about irish people not wanting to do certain jobs....bull****, man. I learned, quite quickly, over the years when I was dependent on such jobs that there was no point in applying for them. Take one look around and if there are no irish pople to be sen....you aint gonna get the job.
There I also the stigma that irish people don't want to be seen to be working alongside immigrants as it is, in essence, signalling that they are lower than their fellow irish people. Contradictory in some regards....but that's something that is NEVER raised. Always the same old dribble (from whatever developed country) "oh sure the peasants don't want to work those jobs". What a catch-22 spin of ludicrosity!!!
A nice rant by you, in response to nothing that I said but he-ho. I was always able to get bar work or shop work growing up, so maybe you not being able to says a lot about you personally.
Or in other words....you can take your "truth" and stick it where it belongs, right up your ignorant ****
And the same right back atcha
happy?0 -
-
I'm glad you came back. Ive read through your post, but it just backs up my statement if you look at it carefully. I cant quote a quote, so I have to go off memory in reply here.
You say that most people are complaining about low-level manufacturing jobs. I don't say that, I see all jobs as equal in this regard. A job loss is a job loss.
You say that people from the eu take jobs (basically)....yeah, that's what I'm saying too.
You say that muslims in particular are mostly refugees or some such....so that agrees with what I say too, they are a net negative.
About me not being able to get a job...well I could, and did, plenty of them. You can believe me or not, I'm a good worker. I cant prove that particular situation with me was a case of discrimination, but logical deduction would point to it as the most likely reason.
You say that immigrants acting as a cabal is a worldwide phenomena. I don't disagree. But how is that a good thing for Ireland?
As for expenses, yeah, we were talking bout different things. But the overall that expenses are going through the roof is correct, and you somewhat agree.
So to sum up:
You said that immigrants don't take jobs from irish people, and that expenses haven't gone up. Your reply contradicted all of that.
And believe it or not (again!) I am glad you came back to reply instead of disappearing. And again, I apologise for any rudeness. As I stated elsewhere, the frustration of hearing the same un-backed, non-substantial replies is annoying, and it can get the better of you sometimes.
No worries, it's the internet man and we all get shytty with each other from time to time. At least you didn't compare me to Hitler (yet)
To respond, I didn't say expenses wen't going up, I said those specific costs that I mentioned weren't. No contraction there.
As for immigrants taking jobs, they do, and for our economy thank God they do because immigration is needed to fill the jobs. That wasn't the case 8/9 years ago but it's the case now. I'm saying that Irish people can still get jobs and that blaming immigrants is either a cop out lazy excuse for them not working or the job is just gone to automation.
We emigrate and take jobs, and people immigrate here and take jobs. Migration has been a net positive for Ireland in a big way imo.0 -
-
Advertisement
-
![[Deleted User]](/applications/dashboard/design/images/defaulticon.png)
Advertisement