Social Justice Warriors - poisoning Rational Discourse?

JupiterKid

I'm seeing more and more of this on internet message boards. Where any attempt to have a rational, reasoned discussion on matters such as power structures, race relations, global politics and gender equality is hijacked by the far left who seem to ignore empirical facts and accuse anyone of holding different views as them as racists, bigots and worse.

It's very intolerant and actually reflects very poorly on them more then it does those they attack, often with vitriol. Any attempt at a dissenting view, no matter how reasoned and moderate, is shut down. As an academic who prides my work on rigid empiricism and evaluation of factual data, this "postmodernist" cultural Marxism that feeds into SJW ideology is based on very little rigid analysis of hard data and instead thrives on "groupthink" and reactionary sentiment. Ironically, the far left is almost as bad now as the far right.

This seems to have diffused from American universities - first it was political correctness in the 90s, but now has evolved into more extreme forms - and has infiltrated the West to a large extent. It seems to be offensive to hold centrist views on any key issues these days for fear of being attacked. I think SJW ideology is actually going to drive more and more people towards the far right which is a very sad thing.

Anyone share my sentiments? Or should we all eagerly embrace SJW cultural Marxist groupthink?

Richard Hillman

There are far too many SJW lobbyists and it seems to be that everybody that gets nominated for the Seanad is a cultural marxist

Shenshen

Interestingly, I tend to make the exact opposite experiences - as soon as certain buzz words come up (vegetarianis, feminism, multi cultural, transgender, Islam, ...), rational discussions become impossible as a red mist seems to descend over a number of people which is coupled with a desire to call everyone perceived to not feel exactly the same a "special snowflake", or SJW.

20Cent

Ironic that people who get upset at forum posts, tweets or blogs call other people snowflakes.

Chester Copperpot

JupiterKid wrote: »

I'm seeing more and more of this on internet message boards. Where any attempt to have a rational, reasoned discussion on matters such as power structures, race relations, global politics and gender equality is hijacked by the far left who seem to ignore empirical facts and accuse anyone of holding different views as them as racists, bigots and worse.

It's very intolerant and actually reflects very poorly on them more then it does those they attack, often with vitriol. Any attempt at a dissenting view, no matter how reasoned and moderate, is shut down. As an academic who prides my work on rigid empiricism and evaluation of factual data, this "postmodernist" cultural Marxism that feeds into SJW ideology is based on very little rigid analysis of hard data and instead thrives on "groupthink" and reactionary sentiment. Ironically, the far left is almost as bad now as the far right.

This seems to have diffusedd from American universities - first it was political correctness in the 90s, but now has evolved into more extreme forms - and has infiltrated the West to a large extent. It seems to be offensive to hold centrist views on any key issues these days for fear of being attacked. I think SJW ideology is actually going to drive more and more people towards the far right which is a very sad thing.

Anyone share my sentiments? Or should we all eagerly embrace SJW cultural Marxist groupthink?

What is 'cultural Marxism'?

Special Circumstances

Chester Copperpot wrote: »

What is 'cultural Marxism'?

Boards mod training 101

tritium

If the first few posts here highlight anything its that the extremes of both the right and left have a victim mentality and exhibit a refusal to engage in meaningful discourse (not a criticism of the posters but based on the examples given).

Which isnt really surprising. What is surprising is how these two groups dont actually see this failing in themselves only in their opponents. The recent US election was a fine example of this. No attempt to understand by either side why anyone might vote against their candidate, just dismiss anyone who did as either misogynist redneck men or snowflake sjws, ignoring how detestable both candidates actually were to a lot of people

mzungu

Chester Copperpot wrote: »

What is 'cultural Marxism'?

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism

Ulysses Gaze

20Cent wrote: »

Ironic that people who get upset at forum posts, tweets or blogs call other people snowflakes.

More like people are not "upset" at forum posts - more "upset" at the movement to stifle debate.

JupiterKid

Chester Copperpot wrote: »

What is 'cultural Marxism'?

It's a form of Marxism that views the pre-existing structures of power as inherently unequal and elitist. Some of my college lecturerers in the 1990s were cultural marxists. It was propagated by the Frankfurt School in the 20th century. Here's a link:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School

osarusan

I'm seeing more and more of people spouting nonsense like SJW, Cultural Marxism, the 'multikult', triggered, snowflake, safe space, virtue signalling, and other overused/empty terms.

Far far more of that nonsense on AH than the stuff the posters are complaining about.

King George VI

I had an argument with a far leftist once. Stereotypical hippie SJW with bad dreadlocks, clothes made from hemp and a bad smell to him, everything was offensive to him and he spent his time mostly with protest groups. Never had a job afaik. According to him because I wear a suit to my 9-5 job, wear ironed clothes and pay tax while he roams around from couch to couch and busks in some alley in Cork, he tried to make me feel bad for being slave to "the establishment" and that I'll never experience true freedom because of conformity to the government's rules.

I was like, yeah I am a slave to the machine. And it gets me steak for dinner, beer at the weekend, nice clothes and a nice apartment and a few holidays a year to nice countries. He fobbed it off and went on and on about how his life is open or something. Stopped listening.

Not sure why I mentioned this. This is my only run in with an actual far leftist and I don't really have anything else to say about the left except that they're all for tolerance and diversity, but only if you're tolerant and diverse the same way that they are.

GLaDOS

The amount of stupid buzzwords spouted by people these days is cringeworthy

Special Circumstances

osarusan wrote: »

I'm seeing more and more of people spouting nonsense like SJW, Cultural Marxism, the 'multikult', triggered, snowflake, safe space, virtue signalling, and other overused/empty terms.

Far far more of that nonsense on AH than the stuff the posters are complaining about.

What have you got against yoghurt?

silverharp

tritium wrote: »

If the first few posts here highlight anything its that the extremes of both the right and left have a victim mentality and exhibit a refusal to engage in meaningful discourse (not a criticism of the posters but based on the examples given).

Which isnt really surprising. What is surprising is how these two groups dont actually see this failing in themselves only in their opponents. The recent US election was a fine example of this. No attempt to understand by either side why anyone might vote against their candidate, just dismiss anyone who did as either misogynist redneck men or snowflake sjws, ignoring how detestable both candidates actually were to a lot of people

but in fairness the "SJW's" started the extreme positions based on an ideology and were always immune to rational discussion. there was a sweet spot in the 90's where racism was in decline , women were seen as equal in the workforce and it all looked onwards and upwards. Then suddenly this whiney group of very noisy individuals try to portray the world like its 1810 not 2010.
Still curious how it became a thing? indoctrination in US colleges? too much quango money attracting ideologues? people having it too good and resetting their tolerance levels to hair trigger levels?

Your Face

Too many threads is AH have been ruined by exponents of rivalling political ideology.

They haven't lived enough to realise its all a load of bollocks.

Shenshen

silverharp wrote: »

but in fairness the "SJW's" started the extreme positions based on an ideology and were always immune to rational discussion. there was a sweet spot in the 90's where racism was in decline , women were seen as equal in the workforce and it all looked onwards and upwards. Then suddenly this whiney group of very noisy individuals try to portray the world like its 1810 not 2010.
Still curious how it became a thing? indoctrination in US colleges? too much quango money attracting ideologues? people having it too good and resetting their tolerance levels to hair trigger levels?

I'm not entirely sure what 90s you were living in, but in my home country (Germany) at the time people were burning down accommodations for asylum seekers and houses of Turkish families - including the people inside them.

There is currently a massive trial going on for a group of right-wing terrorists who have been killing non-nationals in Germany for killing (by shooting or bombing) between 2000 and 2007

20Cent

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

More like people are not "upset" at forum posts - more "upset" at the movement to stifle debate.

Offering opposing views is not stifling dabate. Only governments can censor. If someone gets grief online or denied a platform thats pushback against whatever is being proposed not censorship or stifling debate.

newport2

The only place I've every heard the term "SJW" is on the internet. I've never met anyone in the real world who is concerned about them.

Sonics2k

King George VI wrote: »

I had an argument with a far leftist once. Stereotypical hippie SJW with bad dreadlocks, clothes made from hemp and a bad smell to him, everything was offensive to him and he spent his time mostly with protest groups. Never had a job afaik. According to him because I wear a suit to my 9-5 job, wear ironed clothes and pay tax while he roams around from couch to couch and busks in some alley in Cork, he tried to make me feel bad for being slave to "the establishment" and that I'll never experience true freedom because of conformity to the government's rules.

I was like, yeah I am a slave to the machine. And it gets me steak for dinner, beer at the weekend, nice clothes and a nice apartment and a few holidays a year to nice countries. He fobbed it off and went on and on about how his life is open or something. Stopped listening.

Not sure why I mentioned this. This is my only run in with an actual far leftist and I don't really have anything else to say about the left except that they're all for tolerance and diversity, but only if you're tolerant and diverse the same way that they are.

I dunno man, I'm a pretty damn left wing socialist nut myself, and he just sounds like a lazy hippie douchebag.

silverharp

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure what 90s you were living in, but in my home country (Germany) at the time people were burning down accommodations for asylum seekers and houses of Turkish families - including the people inside them.

There is currently a massive trial going on for a group of right-wing terrorists who have been killing non-nationals in Germany for killing (by shooting or bombing) between 2000 and 2007

the sjw thing is a US thing so local german politics doesn't have a bearing on it, sure look a bit further south there was an ethnic war for crying out loud at the time. Im talking middle and upper class Americans who are the corner stones of these groups. Its not a working class movement by and large, its mostly college educated people so they all have oodles of privilege on a global scale and probably well within the top 1% of such a scale.

Dave_The_Sheep

... privilege. Ugh.

Ulysses Gaze

20Cent wrote: »

Offering opposing views is not stifling dabate. Only governments can censor. If someone gets grief online or denied a platform thats pushback against whatever is being proposed not censorship or stifling debate.

Screaming racism when someone critiques a religion, Islam, is stifling debate.

Screaming racist because someone voted for Trump is stifling debate.

Screaming racist because someone critiques the BLM movement is also stifling debate.

Every idea or ideology should be open to criticism and not throwing out the nuclear option of stifling debate - labelling someone racist.

This is all too common amongst those that are classed as "SJWs".

super_furry

newport2 wrote: »

The only place I've every heard the term "SJW" is on the internet. I've never met anyone in the real world who is concerned about them.

Yet it's a phenomenon born out of US websites, and has exactly nothing to do with Ireland. Too many people spending too much time online and not enough in the real world. On one side you have the tumblr head cases and on the other, the red pill 'manosohere' both equally pointless and both equally living their lives outside of the real world.

Shenshen

silverharp wrote: »

the sjw thing is a US thing so local german politics doesn't have a bearing on it, sure look a bit further south there was an ethnic war for crying out loud at the time. Im talking middle and upper class Americans who are the corner stones of these groups. Its not a working class movement by and large, its mostly college educated people so they all have oodles of privilege on a global scale and probably well within the top 1% of such a scale.

Sorry, I don't follow - you claimed that racism was going down at a time when it was showing its most nasty side right across Europe - from minorities being killed in relatively moderate Germany to genocides in the Balkans to the Front National in France actually running their first presidential candiate.

I don't honestly see what the US class system has to do with that?

Sham Squire

If you find yourself using the term SJW, "I'm not racist but...", Snowflake, or "PC gone mad" then you're part of the problem.
That problem is the slow, inexorable slide to the right that society in general is experiencing for one main reason: Societies have short memories and too few people alive today remember why world wars were fought or understand the ideology that sprung up after them.

mzungu

JupiterKid wrote: »

I'm seeing more and more of this on internet message boards. Where any attempt to have a rational, reasoned discussion on matters such as power structures, race relations, global politics and gender equality is hijacked by the far left who seem to ignore empirical facts and accuse anyone of holding different views as them as racists, bigots and worse.

That happens a lot on sub-reddits and social media, but generally speaking boards seems to be free of it. The real trench warfare stuff would mostly be in the US....at the moment anyways.

JupiterKid wrote: »

It's very intolerant and actually reflects very poorly on them more then it does those they attack, often with vitriol. Any attempt at a dissenting view, no matter how reasoned and moderate, is shut down. As an academic who prides my work on rigid empiricism and evaluation of factual data, this "postmodernist" cultural Marxism that feeds into SJW ideology is based on very little rigid analysis of hard data and instead thrives on "groupthink" and reactionary sentiment. Ironically, the far left is almost as bad now as the far right.

There was probably always the same amount of zealots (the younger ones will probably grow out of it) except now they have the worldwide megaphone that is social media. Add in a culture that encourages uploading "the feels" for affirmation from strangers, and you get the current situation.

The far left were always just as bad as the far right, they just packaged themselves a bit differently.

JupiterKid wrote: »

This seems to have diffused from American universities - first it was political correctness in the 90s, but now has evolved into more extreme forms - and has infiltrated the West to a large extent. It seems to be offensive to hold centrist views on any key issues these days for fear of being attacked. I think SJW ideology is actually going to drive more and more people towards the far right which is a very sad thing.

Personally, I think (hope) it will drive people to hold to centrist values, rather than gravitating towards the hard right.

JupiterKid wrote: »

Anyone share my sentiments? Or should we all eagerly embrace SJW cultural Marxist groupthink?

Interesting as it is, I think a lot of championed postmodernist thinking (rejection of science, anti-enlightenment, gender theory that refuses to accept biological differences etc) is every bit "post-truth" than any "alternate facts" that come from the White House. Afterall, this is the movement that gave us a urinal and presented it as art, so is it any real surprise that its social sciences wing gives us crap? I think the Sokal Affair sums it all up nicely.

The zany tents on postmodernism need to be taken on, but even if they were (and have been) debunked, would it make much difference? It does champion individual experience over empiricism, so in that sense it has neatly cushioned itself away from critique.

MRnotlob606

Richard Hillman wrote: »

There are far too many SJW lobbyists and it seems to be that everybody that gets nominated for the Seanad is a cultural marxist

Can you explain to me what cultural marxism is to me? I am sure that will be impossible without reference to right wing conspiracy theories and Anders Bering Breviks manifesto.

Red Alert

Being an SJW is a must-have for any aspiring TheJournal.ie writer!

Shurimgreat

I totally agree OP.

There seems to be a political agenda to many online contributors. And like you said its very difficult to reason with people who have locked in political prejudices. Any variation from orthodoxy is not embraced, dissent, new or different opinions tend to be shouted down. And debates reduced to black or white with very little room for nuance. Gradually it becomes a case of playing the man and not the ball. We need more open-minded people.

20Cent

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Screaming racism when someone critiques a religion, Islam, is stifling debate.

Screaming racist because someone voted for Trump is stifling debate.

Screaming racist because someone critiques the BLM movement is also stifling debate.

Every idea or ideology should be open to criticism and not throwing out the nuclear option of stifling debate - labelling someone racist.

This is all too common amongst those that are classed as "SJWs".

By "screaming" you mean tweets? So what if someone does that.
It's always been the way just that now its amplified due to social media. Minorities are sticking up for themselves more now and have access to new platforms. Thats all.

kunst nugget

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure what 90s you were living in, but in my home country (Germany) at the time people were burning down accommodations for asylum seekers and houses of Turkish families - including the people inside them.

There is currently a massive trial going on for a group of right-wing terrorists who have been killing non-nationals in Germany for killing (by shooting or bombing) between 2000 and 2007

That's because mullets were still fashionable in Germany at the time. Mullets have a profoundly negative effect on the psyche of a country. We had left them behind in the 90s and had entered a new era of spiritual awakening and a zen state of oneness with our fellow man. Well, a state of oneness with everyone except Travellers. And Nigerians. And Protestants.

Dave_The_Sheep

20Cent wrote: »

... sticking up for themselves more now ...

I think OPs point is that there's sticking up for yourself and your beliefs and there's shutting down any and all reasonable debate by declaring someone to be racist/misogynist/whatever as soon as they disagree with you on something.

Something I find hilarious is just how much people feel triggered when you start talking about something that doesn't fit into their individual narrative, especially when this is done purely to get a rise. It is too damned easy. I'm sure these posters know exactly who they are and, really, probably shouldn't be spending as much time online if they get that into it.

It's the internet, for f*cks sake.

silverharp

Shenshen wrote: »

Sorry, I don't follow - you claimed that racism was going down at a time when it was showing its most nasty side right across Europe - from minorities being killed in relatively moderate Germany to genocides in the Balkans to the Front National in France actually running their first presidential candiate.

I don't honestly see what the US class system has to do with that?

they are very insular groups, they are really only interested in internal issues in the US or UK. its very rare they involved with issues like women in Islam, Saudi Arabia and the rest. Im just looking at this from the world of English language social media, which even if the people are British, their focus is still the US.
this all kicked off either helped by social media and timed with the economic crash so had nothing to do with the politics of the last year or two. Im just curious why it appeared out of nowhere?

kunst nugget

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

I think OPs point is that there's sticking up for yourself and your beliefs and there's shutting down any and all reasonable debate by declaring someone to be racist/misogynist/whatever as soon as they disagree with you on something.

Same as shutting down a debate by declaring someone to be a SJW/Left Wing Libtard/Cuck...

20Cent

I think this whole snowflake sjw thing is getting old very fast and will go the same way click bait did. People just stop paying attention to it.

Can we all just agree that anyone who identifies as "Left" or "Right" can be as bad as each other when it comes to shutting down "rational discourse"? Everyone is a wanker. Everyone is an eejit.

super_furry

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Screaming racism when someone critiques a religion, Islam, is stifling debate.

Screaming racist because someone voted for Trump is stifling debate.

Screaming racist because someone critiques the BLM movement is also stifling debate.

Every idea or ideology should be open to criticism and not throwing out the nuclear option of stifling debate - labelling someone racist.

This is all too common amongst those that are classed as "SJWs".

Again, all online crap centred around American politics and Internet personalities. This isn't an issue in the real world.

kunst nugget

Deleted User wrote: »

Can we all just agree that anyone who identifies as "Left" or "Right" can be as bad as each other when it comes to shutting down "rational discourse"? Everyone is a wanker. Everyone is an eejit.

But then how am I going to be able to play the victim?

Dave_The_Sheep

kunst nugget wrote: »

Same as shutting down a debate by declaring someone to be a SJW/Left Wing Libtard/Cuck...

Absolutely.

kunst nugget

kunst nugget wrote: »

But then how am I going to be able to play the victim?

If you want to be the victim, you can be the victim. But you'd still be a wanker. And an eejit. Just like everybody else. And then maybe when we acknowledge that we're all **** & eejits, we can just get back to boards being actually fun instead of populated by uptight eejits. And back to being regular eejits.

kunst nugget

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Absolutely.

The OPs point though was that the blame for poisoned Rational discourse was only on the one side which it isn't. If you went on to any of the Trump threads on here after he won, there was an abundance of 'love the salty tears of libtards' posts and anyone who criticised Trump was told to shut up because they had lost and democracy had won. This is on a board of mainly Irish people... completely bizarre.

osarusan

The irony in the OP is amazing - starts a thread lamenting how discourse is being poisoned, and includes a term whose use on AH is overwhelmingly a pejorative label used to poison discourse.

Hande hoche!

20Cent wrote: »

By "screaming" you mean tweets? So what if someone does that.
It's always been the way just that now its amplified due to social media. Minorities are sticking up for themselves more now and have access to new platforms. Thats all.

A lot of the screaming is done by members of the same race/ sexual orientation/etc. Wouldn't simply write it off as empowerment of groups by technology.

kunst nugget

Hande hoche! wrote: »

A lot of the screaming is done by members of the same race/ sexual orientation/etc. Wouldn't simply write it off as empowerment of groups by technology.

I'm not sure what the screaming is... Do you shout out loud tweets you don't agree with when reading them?

Hande hoche!

kunst nugget wrote: »

I'm not sure what the screaming is... Do you shout out loud tweets you don't agree with when reading them?

Depends on how much stimulants I have had at that stage.

infogiver

20Cent wrote: »

By "screaming" you mean tweets? So what if someone does that.
It's always been the way just that now its amplified due to social media. Minorities are sticking up for themselves more now and have access to new platforms. Thats all.

If by "sticking up for themselves" you mean shouting and pointing and accusing anyone who isn't apologising to them for being white male and straight of being a racist misogynistic homophobic bigot who needs to "check your privilege" instead of making a reasoned argument on a point to point basis the, yes, that's all.
Check out on YouTube any of the SJW protests on US university campuses to lectures from the likes of Ben Shapiro or Milo Yannoupolis to get a real flavour.
Instead of attending the lectures and standing up to argue his right wing policies with him, the very strong very vocal left wing students (supported in the main by the faculty) use "all means necessary" to prevent the lecture from going ahead.
If it does go ahead they will disrupt and shout down the speaker simply because they don't have any ability to debate and Ben Shapiro in particular will win ant debate every time with his facts and reason.

JupiterKid

osarusan wrote: »

The irony in the OP is amazing - starts a thread lamenting how discourse is being poisoned, and includes a term whose use on AH is overwhelmingly a pejorative label used to poison discourse.

I used the term SJW to get the discussion flowing. There are also plenty of perjorative terms used for those who hold right wing views. Also, my appeal is for critical, independent thinking and reasoned debate, which sadly seems to very lacking at times as posters become entrenched in their views and attack each other. And the hard left is just as guilty of doing it as the far right. I am centrist in my political views.

What saddens me is that people don't seem to read up various differing viewpoints in the wider media, even ones that they may not like or agree with and form an informed opinion. They prefer to reinforce their prejudices and world views by reading material and opinions that agree with their own to gain a sense of smug self-satisfaction. That, to me, is not critical thinking. If a student of mine submitted an assignment where they asserted a certain view without any data or facts to back it up I would fail them. And a left wing orthodoxy without adequate counter arguments has infected the postmodernist discourse in academia - in the humanities disciplines - to an alarming degree. Like a type of absolutist orthodoxy. This has polarised opinion between right and left and that is regrettable.

You see, I believe informing oneself is about reading up the facts and engaging in proper debate, not resorting to infantile reactionary retorts.

20Cent

infogiver wrote: »

If by "sticking up for themselves" you mean shouting and pointing and accusing anyone who isn't apologising to them for being white male and straight of being a racist misogynistic homophobic bigot who needs to "check your privilege" instead of making a reasoned argument on a point to point basis the, yes, that's all.
Check out on YouTube any of the SJW protests on US university campuses to lectures from the likes of Ben Shapiro or Milo Yannoupolis to get a real flavour.
Instead of attending the lectures and standing up to argue his right wing policies with him, the very strong very vocal left wing students (supported in the main by the faculty) use "all means necessary" to prevent the lecture from going ahead.
If it does go ahead they will disrupt and shout down the speaker simply because they don't have any ability to debate and Ben Shapiro in particular will win ant debate every time with his facts and reason.

Lectures are different to debates. If the audience had equal time to challenge Milo and Shapiro's "ideas" it would be ok but they don't they arrive at the campus expecting to be able to attack and humiliate minority students at will they cry censorship if anyone protests this.

The_Valeyard

Is it echo chambers? People surround themselves with those who share their views, and find themselves, shocked, horrified and offended that someone else could have a different point if view.


It's possible that internet discussion forums are a principle cause of this a d have helped lower the tone and pander to any attention seeking moron.