Social Justice Warriors - poisoning Rational Discourse?

JupiterKid

I'm seeing more and more of this on internet message boards. Where any attempt to have a rational, reasoned discussion on matters such as power structures, race relations, global politics and gender equality is hijacked by the far left who seem to ignore empirical facts and accuse anyone of holding different views as them as racists, bigots and worse.

It's very intolerant and actually reflects very poorly on them more then it does those they attack, often with vitriol. Any attempt at a dissenting view, no matter how reasoned and moderate, is shut down. As an academic who prides my work on rigid empiricism and evaluation of factual data, this "postmodernist" cultural Marxism that feeds into SJW ideology is based on very little rigid analysis of hard data and instead thrives on "groupthink" and reactionary sentiment. Ironically, the far left is almost as bad now as the far right.

This seems to have diffused from American universities - first it was political correctness in the 90s, but now has evolved into more extreme forms - and has infiltrated the West to a large extent. It seems to be offensive to hold centrist views on any key issues these days for fear of being attacked. I think SJW ideology is actually going to drive more and more people towards the far right which is a very sad thing.

Anyone share my sentiments? Or should we all eagerly embrace SJW cultural Marxist groupthink?

Richard Hillman

There are far too many SJW lobbyists and it seems to be that everybody that gets nominated for the Seanad is a cultural marxist

Shenshen

Interestingly, I tend to make the exact opposite experiences - as soon as certain buzz words come up (vegetarianis, feminism, multi cultural, transgender, Islam, ...), rational discussions become impossible as a red mist seems to descend over a number of people which is coupled with a desire to call everyone perceived to not feel exactly the same a "special snowflake", or SJW.

20Cent

Ironic that people who get upset at forum posts, tweets or blogs call other people snowflakes.

Chester Copperpot

JupiterKid wrote: »

I'm seeing more and more of this on internet message boards. Where any attempt to have a rational, reasoned discussion on matters such as power structures, race relations, global politics and gender equality is hijacked by the far left who seem to ignore empirical facts and accuse anyone of holding different views as them as racists, bigots and worse.

It's very intolerant and actually reflects very poorly on them more then it does those they attack, often with vitriol. Any attempt at a dissenting view, no matter how reasoned and moderate, is shut down. As an academic who prides my work on rigid empiricism and evaluation of factual data, this "postmodernist" cultural Marxism that feeds into SJW ideology is based on very little rigid analysis of hard data and instead thrives on "groupthink" and reactionary sentiment. Ironically, the far left is almost as bad now as the far right.

This seems to have diffusedd from American universities - first it was political correctness in the 90s, but now has evolved into more extreme forms - and has infiltrated the West to a large extent. It seems to be offensive to hold centrist views on any key issues these days for fear of being attacked. I think SJW ideology is actually going to drive more and more people towards the far right which is a very sad thing.

Anyone share my sentiments? Or should we all eagerly embrace SJW cultural Marxist groupthink?

What is 'cultural Marxism'?

Special Circumstances

Chester Copperpot wrote: »

What is 'cultural Marxism'?

Boards mod training 101

tritium

If the first few posts here highlight anything its that the extremes of both the right and left have a victim mentality and exhibit a refusal to engage in meaningful discourse (not a criticism of the posters but based on the examples given).

Which isnt really surprising. What is surprising is how these two groups dont actually see this failing in themselves only in their opponents. The recent US election was a fine example of this. No attempt to understand by either side why anyone might vote against their candidate, just dismiss anyone who did as either misogynist redneck men or snowflake sjws, ignoring how detestable both candidates actually were to a lot of people

mzungu

Chester Copperpot wrote: »

What is 'cultural Marxism'?

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism

Ulysses Gaze

20Cent wrote: »

Ironic that people who get upset at forum posts, tweets or blogs call other people snowflakes.

More like people are not "upset" at forum posts - more "upset" at the movement to stifle debate.

JupiterKid

Chester Copperpot wrote: »

What is 'cultural Marxism'?

It's a form of Marxism that views the pre-existing structures of power as inherently unequal and elitist. Some of my college lecturerers in the 1990s were cultural marxists. It was propagated by the Frankfurt School in the 20th century. Here's a link:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School

osarusan

I'm seeing more and more of people spouting nonsense like SJW, Cultural Marxism, the 'multikult', triggered, snowflake, safe space, virtue signalling, and other overused/empty terms.

Far far more of that nonsense on AH than the stuff the posters are complaining about.

King George VI

I had an argument with a far leftist once. Stereotypical hippie SJW with bad dreadlocks, clothes made from hemp and a bad smell to him, everything was offensive to him and he spent his time mostly with protest groups. Never had a job afaik. According to him because I wear a suit to my 9-5 job, wear ironed clothes and pay tax while he roams around from couch to couch and busks in some alley in Cork, he tried to make me feel bad for being slave to "the establishment" and that I'll never experience true freedom because of conformity to the government's rules.

I was like, yeah I am a slave to the machine. And it gets me steak for dinner, beer at the weekend, nice clothes and a nice apartment and a few holidays a year to nice countries. He fobbed it off and went on and on about how his life is open or something. Stopped listening.

Not sure why I mentioned this. This is my only run in with an actual far leftist and I don't really have anything else to say about the left except that they're all for tolerance and diversity, but only if you're tolerant and diverse the same way that they are.

GLaDOS

The amount of stupid buzzwords spouted by people these days is cringeworthy

Special Circumstances

osarusan wrote: »

I'm seeing more and more of people spouting nonsense like SJW, Cultural Marxism, the 'multikult', triggered, snowflake, safe space, virtue signalling, and other overused/empty terms.

Far far more of that nonsense on AH than the stuff the posters are complaining about.

What have you got against yoghurt?

silverharp

tritium wrote: »

If the first few posts here highlight anything its that the extremes of both the right and left have a victim mentality and exhibit a refusal to engage in meaningful discourse (not a criticism of the posters but based on the examples given).

Which isnt really surprising. What is surprising is how these two groups dont actually see this failing in themselves only in their opponents. The recent US election was a fine example of this. No attempt to understand by either side why anyone might vote against their candidate, just dismiss anyone who did as either misogynist redneck men or snowflake sjws, ignoring how detestable both candidates actually were to a lot of people

but in fairness the "SJW's" started the extreme positions based on an ideology and were always immune to rational discussion. there was a sweet spot in the 90's where racism was in decline , women were seen as equal in the workforce and it all looked onwards and upwards. Then suddenly this whiney group of very noisy individuals try to portray the world like its 1810 not 2010.
Still curious how it became a thing? indoctrination in US colleges? too much quango money attracting ideologues? people having it too good and resetting their tolerance levels to hair trigger levels?

Your Face

Too many threads is AH have been ruined by exponents of rivalling political ideology.

They haven't lived enough to realise its all a load of bollocks.

Shenshen

silverharp wrote: »

but in fairness the "SJW's" started the extreme positions based on an ideology and were always immune to rational discussion. there was a sweet spot in the 90's where racism was in decline , women were seen as equal in the workforce and it all looked onwards and upwards. Then suddenly this whiney group of very noisy individuals try to portray the world like its 1810 not 2010.
Still curious how it became a thing? indoctrination in US colleges? too much quango money attracting ideologues? people having it too good and resetting their tolerance levels to hair trigger levels?

I'm not entirely sure what 90s you were living in, but in my home country (Germany) at the time people were burning down accommodations for asylum seekers and houses of Turkish families - including the people inside them.

There is currently a massive trial going on for a group of right-wing terrorists who have been killing non-nationals in Germany for killing (by shooting or bombing) between 2000 and 2007

20Cent

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

More like people are not "upset" at forum posts - more "upset" at the movement to stifle debate.

Offering opposing views is not stifling dabate. Only governments can censor. If someone gets grief online or denied a platform thats pushback against whatever is being proposed not censorship or stifling debate.

newport2

The only place I've every heard the term "SJW" is on the internet. I've never met anyone in the real world who is concerned about them.

Sonics2k

King George VI wrote: »

I had an argument with a far leftist once. Stereotypical hippie SJW with bad dreadlocks, clothes made from hemp and a bad smell to him, everything was offensive to him and he spent his time mostly with protest groups. Never had a job afaik. According to him because I wear a suit to my 9-5 job, wear ironed clothes and pay tax while he roams around from couch to couch and busks in some alley in Cork, he tried to make me feel bad for being slave to "the establishment" and that I'll never experience true freedom because of conformity to the government's rules.

I was like, yeah I am a slave to the machine. And it gets me steak for dinner, beer at the weekend, nice clothes and a nice apartment and a few holidays a year to nice countries. He fobbed it off and went on and on about how his life is open or something. Stopped listening.

Not sure why I mentioned this. This is my only run in with an actual far leftist and I don't really have anything else to say about the left except that they're all for tolerance and diversity, but only if you're tolerant and diverse the same way that they are.

I dunno man, I'm a pretty damn left wing socialist nut myself, and he just sounds like a lazy hippie douchebag.

silverharp

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure what 90s you were living in, but in my home country (Germany) at the time people were burning down accommodations for asylum seekers and houses of Turkish families - including the people inside them.

There is currently a massive trial going on for a group of right-wing terrorists who have been killing non-nationals in Germany for killing (by shooting or bombing) between 2000 and 2007

the sjw thing is a US thing so local german politics doesn't have a bearing on it, sure look a bit further south there was an ethnic war for crying out loud at the time. Im talking middle and upper class Americans who are the corner stones of these groups. Its not a working class movement by and large, its mostly college educated people so they all have oodles of privilege on a global scale and probably well within the top 1% of such a scale.

Dave_The_Sheep

... privilege. Ugh.

Ulysses Gaze

20Cent wrote: »

Offering opposing views is not stifling dabate. Only governments can censor. If someone gets grief online or denied a platform thats pushback against whatever is being proposed not censorship or stifling debate.

Screaming racism when someone critiques a religion, Islam, is stifling debate.

Screaming racist because someone voted for Trump is stifling debate.

Screaming racist because someone critiques the BLM movement is also stifling debate.

Every idea or ideology should be open to criticism and not throwing out the nuclear option of stifling debate - labelling someone racist.

This is all too common amongst those that are classed as "SJWs".

super_furry

newport2 wrote: »

The only place I've every heard the term "SJW" is on the internet. I've never met anyone in the real world who is concerned about them.

Yet it's a phenomenon born out of US websites, and has exactly nothing to do with Ireland. Too many people spending too much time online and not enough in the real world. On one side you have the tumblr head cases and on the other, the red pill 'manosohere' both equally pointless and both equally living their lives outside of the real world.

Shenshen

silverharp wrote: »

the sjw thing is a US thing so local german politics doesn't have a bearing on it, sure look a bit further south there was an ethnic war for crying out loud at the time. Im talking middle and upper class Americans who are the corner stones of these groups. Its not a working class movement by and large, its mostly college educated people so they all have oodles of privilege on a global scale and probably well within the top 1% of such a scale.

Sorry, I don't follow - you claimed that racism was going down at a time when it was showing its most nasty side right across Europe - from minorities being killed in relatively moderate Germany to genocides in the Balkans to the Front National in France actually running their first presidential candiate.

I don't honestly see what the US class system has to do with that?

Sham Squire

If you find yourself using the term SJW, "I'm not racist but...", Snowflake, or "PC gone mad" then you're part of the problem.
That problem is the slow, inexorable slide to the right that society in general is experiencing for one main reason: Societies have short memories and too few people alive today remember why world wars were fought or understand the ideology that sprung up after them.

mzungu

JupiterKid wrote: »

I'm seeing more and more of this on internet message boards. Where any attempt to have a rational, reasoned discussion on matters such as power structures, race relations, global politics and gender equality is hijacked by the far left who seem to ignore empirical facts and accuse anyone of holding different views as them as racists, bigots and worse.

That happens a lot on sub-reddits and social media, but generally speaking boards seems to be free of it. The real trench warfare stuff would mostly be in the US....at the moment anyways.

JupiterKid wrote: »

It's very intolerant and actually reflects very poorly on them more then it does those they attack, often with vitriol. Any attempt at a dissenting view, no matter how reasoned and moderate, is shut down. As an academic who prides my work on rigid empiricism and evaluation of factual data, this "postmodernist" cultural Marxism that feeds into SJW ideology is based on very little rigid analysis of hard data and instead thrives on "groupthink" and reactionary sentiment. Ironically, the far left is almost as bad now as the far right.

There was probably always the same amount of zealots (the younger ones will probably grow out of it) except now they have the worldwide megaphone that is social media. Add in a culture that encourages uploading "the feels" for affirmation from strangers, and you get the current situation.

The far left were always just as bad as the far right, they just packaged themselves a bit differently.

JupiterKid wrote: »

This seems to have diffused from American universities - first it was political correctness in the 90s, but now has evolved into more extreme forms - and has infiltrated the West to a large extent. It seems to be offensive to hold centrist views on any key issues these days for fear of being attacked. I think SJW ideology is actually going to drive more and more people towards the far right which is a very sad thing.

Personally, I think (hope) it will drive people to hold to centrist values, rather than gravitating towards the hard right.

JupiterKid wrote: »

Anyone share my sentiments? Or should we all eagerly embrace SJW cultural Marxist groupthink?

Interesting as it is, I think a lot of championed postmodernist thinking (rejection of science, anti-enlightenment, gender theory that refuses to accept biological differences etc) is every bit "post-truth" than any "alternate facts" that come from the White House. Afterall, this is the movement that gave us a urinal and presented it as art, so is it any real surprise that its social sciences wing gives us crap? I think the Sokal Affair sums it all up nicely.

The zany tents on postmodernism need to be taken on, but even if they were (and have been) debunked, would it make much difference? It does champion individual experience over empiricism, so in that sense it has neatly cushioned itself away from critique.

MRnotlob606

Richard Hillman wrote: »

There are far too many SJW lobbyists and it seems to be that everybody that gets nominated for the Seanad is a cultural marxist

Can you explain to me what cultural marxism is to me? I am sure that will be impossible without reference to right wing conspiracy theories and Anders Bering Breviks manifesto.

Red Alert

Being an SJW is a must-have for any aspiring TheJournal.ie writer!

Shurimgreat

I totally agree OP.

There seems to be a political agenda to many online contributors. And like you said its very difficult to reason with people who have locked in political prejudices. Any variation from orthodoxy is not embraced, dissent, new or different opinions tend to be shouted down. And debates reduced to black or white with very little room for nuance. Gradually it becomes a case of playing the man and not the ball. We need more open-minded people.

20Cent

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Screaming racism when someone critiques a religion, Islam, is stifling debate.

Screaming racist because someone voted for Trump is stifling debate.

Screaming racist because someone critiques the BLM movement is also stifling debate.

Every idea or ideology should be open to criticism and not throwing out the nuclear option of stifling debate - labelling someone racist.

This is all too common amongst those that are classed as "SJWs".

By "screaming" you mean tweets? So what if someone does that.
It's always been the way just that now its amplified due to social media. Minorities are sticking up for themselves more now and have access to new platforms. Thats all.