NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

rob808 · 25-03-2017 04:41PM

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

I'm saying it may now not be viable for Siro and enet to continue in the process. Eir drew their blue line map for a specific reason and it looks like their masterstroke has paid off.

we have to wait and see, I could see siro probably dropping out. I say Enet will stay in it since they work with Eir on there kerry FTTH project using Eir poles with Eir reselling there FTTH product on there network.

Johnboy1951 · 25-03-2017 04:42PM

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

I'm saying it may now not be viable for Siro and enet to continue in the process. Eir drew their blue line map for a specific reason and it looks like their masterstroke has paid off.

I know what you are saying, but I see no basis for it.
Why would it not be viable for them to bid?

It is up to the gov to assess the bids.

It will not cost much to re-jig the figures to account for the loss of the blue-line premises. It is most likely they have already done so.

So how it is not viable for them to send in their bid?
The work to produce the bid is already done.

tsue921i8wljb3 · 25-03-2017 05:06PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I know what you are saying, but I see no basis for it.
Why would it not be viable for them to bid?

It is up to the gov to assess the bids.

It will not cost much to re-jig the figures to account for the loss of the blue-line premises. It is most likely they have already done so.

So how it is not viable for them to send in their bid?
The work to produce the bid is already done.

I'm just concerned that the potential return will not be there for them.

Take your own town Ennis. Say Siro have a POP there. Now they have to bring fibre to some rural area outside Ennis. But Eir have cherrypicked all the higher density rural areas around the town that Siro will have to pass through to reach the lower density rural area. Eir will have locked anyone that wanted fibre into contracts meaning Siro must wait 12 or 18 months before hoping to entice them to switch. So Siro is left with the less profitable lower density areas.

I'm not saying it will happen but I would not be surprised to see one or both of the other bidders pulling out.

Johnboy1951 · 25-03-2017 08:36PM

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

I'm just concerned that the potential return will not be there for them.

Take your own town Ennis. Say Siro have a POP there. Now they have to bring fibre to some rural area outside Ennis. But Eir have cherrypicked all the higher density rural areas around the town that Siro will have to pass through to reach the lower density rural area. Eir will have locked anyone that wanted fibre into contracts meaning Siro must wait 12 or 18 months before hoping to entice them to switch. So Siro is left with the less profitable lower density areas.

I'm not saying it will happen but I would not be surprised to see one or both of the other bidders pulling out.

We seem to be at cross purposes

Yes there is already competition in Ennis from both eir and SIRO providing FTTH.

But none of that should have any affect on the ability to bid for a contract.
Certainly the 'per premises' cost of providing the service will rise.
That is the government's problem as it will rise for both SIRO and Enet.
If the eir spend on the blue lines is factored in then I suspect there would be little difference in the cost to eir. SIRO or Enet.

In any case it does not in any way prevent or discourage a bid being offered.
It might well have influence on who is the lowest bidder - but if eir factor in their costs for the blue line areas then possibly not.

So I see no reason whatsoever for Enet or Siro or Eir to not bid for the contracts.
That is the only point on which we are disagreeing.

tsue921i8wljb3 · 25-03-2017 08:47PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

We seem to be at cross purposes
Yes there is already competition in Ennis from both eir and SIRO providing FTTH.

But none of that should have any affect on the ability to bid for a contract.
Certainly the 'per premises' cost of providing the service will rise.
That is the government's problem as it will rise for both SIRO and Enet.
If the eir spend on the blue lines is factored in then I suspect there would be little difference in the cost to eir. SIRO or Enet.

In any case it does not in any way prevent or discourage a bid being offered.
It might well have influence on who is the lowest bidder - but if eir factor in their costs for the blue line areas then possibly not.

So I see no reason whatsoever for Enet or Siro or Eir to not bid for the contracts.
That is the only point on which we are disagreeing.

Fair enough. I guess all will be revealed in the coming months.

pegasus1 · 25-03-2017 08:50PM

I would think by contractually committed, means that to be finished the 300,000 by end of '18

pegasus1 · 25-03-2017 08:52PM

Plus I would also think that to do the NBP area's even Eir would have to run new fibre from the exchange etc..or they could well have run the capacity in with the blue, sorry yellow lines...I wonder would the commitment be a factor in changing the colour

wexfordman2 · 25-03-2017 08:53PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

We seem to be at cross purposes
Yes there is already competition in Ennis from both eir and SIRO providing FTTH.

But none of that should have any affect on the ability to bid for a contract.
Certainly the 'per premises' cost of providing the service will rise.
That is the government's problem as it will rise for both SIRO and Enet.
If the eir spend on the blue lines is factored in then I suspect there would be little difference in the cost to eir. SIRO or Enet.

In any case it does not in any way prevent or discourage a bid being offered.
It might well have influence on who is the lowest bidder - but if eir factor in their costs for the blue line areas then possibly not.

So I see no reason whatsoever for Enet or Siro or Eir to not bid for the contracts.
That is the only point on which we are disagreeing.

The main reason that they may pull out, is simply because they might see that they would not be able to put in a competitive tender.

If they have a good idea they cannot compete with eir, then it's a bit like me going to an auction at sothebys, a pointless waste of time, and expense.

Johnboy1951 · 25-03-2017 08:59PM

wexfordman2 wrote: »

The main reason that they may pull out, is simply because they might see that they would not be able to put in a competitive tender.

If they have a good idea they cannot compete with eir, then it's a bit like me going to an auction at sothebys, a pointless waste of time, and expense.

As they have no idea what the other bidders tenders are/will be, they could have no idea if their tender will be competitive or not.

It would be foolish to not bid for the contracts now that all the work involved in getting to the last three and preparing the bid has been done.

oscarBravo · 26-03-2017 12:45PM

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

I'm just concerned that the potential return will not be there for them.

I know where you're coming from, but the NBP is by definition required to bridge the gap between not commercially viable and commercially viable.

It's possible that this has put open eir in a position to make a more attractive bid than the other bidders. If so, and if they're in a position to deliver on it, then it's a clever business move on their part.

I'm definitely curious to hear more over the coming weeks and months.

Johnboy1951 · 26-03-2017 01:35PM

I wonder if there is a EU requirement, that having selecting the short list of three, that there must be bids received from all three, else a substitute must be found?

Only wondering about it .......

KOR101 · 28-03-2017 08:43PM

Does anyone know how commitment contracts work. I assume they can't be open ended in terms of completion date. Are their financial penalties if commitments are not met? How real are they in practice?

kevinbad2010 · 28-03-2017 10:52PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I wonder if there is a EU requirement, that having selecting the short list of three, that there must be bids received from all three, else a substitute must be found?

Only wondering about it .......

No EU requirement other than, allowing the contract to be available to all EU businesses and not to just favor Irish ones.

Johnboy1951 · 28-03-2017 11:48PM

KOR101 wrote: »

Does anyone know how commitment contracts work. I assume they can't be open ended in terms of completion date. Are their financial penalties if commitments are not met? How real are they in practice?

The contract is as agreed between eir and the gov ....... I have not seen any info about what might be in the terms of that contract.

rob808 · 03-04-2017 10:20AM

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/government-set-to-release-final-broadband-intervention-map-1.3034091?mode=amp

ED E · 03-04-2017 11:41AM

rob808 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/government-set-to-release-final-broadband-intervention-map-1.3034091?mode=amp

Sub required. Non mobile link:
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/government-set-to-release-final-broadband-intervention-map-1.3034091?

rob808 · 04-04-2017 08:22AM

http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/broadband-rollout-cut-means-rural-areas-face-more-delays-35591537.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/changes-to-state-broadband-scheme-may-bring-legal-challenge-1.3035489

The Cush · 04-04-2017 08:45AM

On Morning Ireland now, "Minister to announce details of the NBP later today".

plodder · 04-04-2017 09:13AM

rob808 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/broadband-rollout-cut-means-rural-areas-face-more-delays-35591537.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/changes-to-state-broadband-scheme-may-bring-legal-challenge-1.3035489

As regards legal action, I think what is very much in Eir's favour is that they have been more ambitious than Siro in their deployment plans for commercial rural broadband. There was nothing to stop Siro from rolling out a similar network to the Openeir one. If it happens that Eir has a more extensive network to base the NBP on when it comes to awarding the contract, that's hardly Eir's problem.

What works against them is the slow progress towards implementing the plans and doubtless their competitors will argue it was a land-grab whose intention was never achievable (in the stated timescales at least). It's up to Eir to prove that wrong now and of course on how solid the agreement between the government and Eir is, and if it has real teeth/penalties as regards non-performance.

KOR101 · 04-04-2017 09:15AM

There were also these articles....

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/last-links-to-rural-ireland-now-more-expensive-35591536.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-risks-legal-action-over-broadband-plan-1.3035528

KOR101 · 04-04-2017 09:17AM

plodder wrote: »

It's up to Eir to prove that wrong now and of course on how solid the agreement between the government and Eir is, and if it has real teeth/penalties as regards non-performance.

A maximum fine of €20m for God's sake.

plodder · 04-04-2017 09:55AM

KOR101 wrote: »

A maximum fine of €20m for God's sake.

Seems low all right. I'd have other concerns as well. What criteria will be used? Homes passed or live connections? It should be actual connections, or else they will concentrate on rolling out the network, to suit the NBP. Then again, connections seem to be the trickiest and most time-consuming aspect of the whole thing.

damienirel · 04-04-2017 10:52AM

After all the talk of "years of planning"- it looks like the government and dept. went out on the lash instead.
The tender will be pushed out even further with legal problems and Dennis Naughton and his ilk can pass the the parcel to the next bunch of clowns that get elected to "fixsh the roads".

SkepticQuark · 04-04-2017 11:02AM

damienirel wrote: »

After all the talk of "years of planning"- it looks like the government and dept. went out on the lash instead.
The tender will be pushed out even further with legal problems and Dennis Naughton and his ilk can pass the the parcel to the next bunch of clowns that get elected to "fixsh the roads".

To be fair though there isn't really much they can do when Eir is claiming they are "committed" to doing 300,000 homes commercially. EU rules and Eir have ****ed us here I'm afraid. As soon as Eir decided it wanted to **** around with it and snatch so many key areas all the years of planning gets thrown out.

Looks like we could potentially be stuck with Imagine being our best option for way too long now (for those still in the NBP).

Johnboy1951 · 04-04-2017 11:08AM

The full terms of the eir commitment contract will make an interesting read.
I can only hope that the gov has eir tied very tightly to their commitment, and suitable penalties if they fail at each stage of their commitment.

We wait for the publishing of the contract.

plodder · 04-04-2017 11:25AM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

The full terms of the eir commitment contract will make an interesting read.
I can only hope that the gov has eir tied very tightly to their commitment, and suitable penalties if they fail at each stage of their commitment.

We wait for the publishing of the contract.

I suppose the worst case, most pessimistic scenario is that they just suck up the €20 million fine for being late, which is peanuts in terms of overall value. There really should be recurring fines for every month they are late beyond the end of 2018. The whole basis of the NBP is now that these areas are served before it gets going. If that means that Eir only have the resources to deliver one chunk of the NBP then so be it. They can't be allowed to deliver both NBP and the 300K in parallel. I could see that being the basis for a challenge.

damienirel · 04-04-2017 11:32AM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

The full terms of the eir commitment contract will make an interesting read.
I can only hope that the gov has eir tied very tightly to their commitment, and suitable penalties if they fail at each stage of their commitment.

We wait for the publishing of the contract.

I can predict it to be a depressing/boring read

As in nothing to see here - we're doing as little as possible to speed up the rollout.

Johnboy1951 · 04-04-2017 11:35AM

plodder wrote: »

I suppose the worst case, most pessimistic scenario is that they just suck up the €20 million fine for being late, which is peanuts in terms of overall value. There really should be recurring fines for every month they are late beyond the end of 2018. The whole basis of the NBP is now that these areas are served before it gets going. If that means that Eir only have the resources to deliver one chunk of the NBP then so be it. They can't be allowed to deliver both NBP and the 300K in parallel. I could see that being the basis for a challenge.

As we don't have any definite details on the contract as yet we cannot be sure that what you post is fact ..... but most is likely I suppose.

I see no real purpose is speculating without the contract details, TBH.
Hopefully by tomorrow those details will be available.

plodder · 04-04-2017 11:56AM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

As we don't have any definite details on the contract as yet we cannot be sure that what you post is fact ..... but most is likely I suppose.

I see no real purpose is speculating without the contract details, TBH.
Hopefully by tomorrow those details will be available.

The €20 million fine was in one of the IT articles though. There must be something to it.

damienirel · 04-04-2017 11:56AM

I don't see how they won't be challenged - they are one of the Bidders in the NBP so taking the 300k low hanging fruit before it goes to tender. And the government amending NBP maps to suit this 300k - all seems like a recipe for disaster. I can see the NBP to be in a shambles after this, I lived in hope that common sense would prevail and the 3 separate bidders would be given a level playing field to avoid legal challenges and hold ups. I predict this to entangle all sorts of legal challenges due to the money at stake and the political pressure on getting a reasonable broadband service to Irish people, it's as if the government are looking for a crisis before they do anything??

NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

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