BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

BoatMad · 27-03-2017 06:39PM

n97 mini wrote: »

Every rail line is mirrored by a BE service and without BE I'd say there are record numbers using the trains at the moment. Take out IE too and you only have the handful routes licensed to privates.

IE has no track , no trains and in essence carries 1% of interurban commuting

other then DART it has little effect on the travelling public , even in Dublin Heavy rail is 5% of commuters , DB/LUAS can easily handle Dart

IE is of completely zero consequence

The issue is DB

devnull · 27-03-2017 06:40PM

I just realised if an election was called and the dail was dismissed then surely they would be long dead before a new one was formed?

So it'd be academic anyway and might lessen their chances.

oppenheimer1 · 27-03-2017 06:42PM

Shamrock776 wrote: »

They will only go if they know they can get a majority, this won't delver that. The whole IE and particularly DB is just to put pressure on as you can clearly see the media and most political members don't give a sh*t at the minute, you barley see it get coverage where as DB and Luas was non stop coverage.

Lack of notice was the real problem with IE...

This is also true. The story barely got a mention in the news over the weekend, there was more discussion on Seamus Coleman's leg than it.

The government we have at the moment might just be the one to take on the transport Unions, given the set up FF may decide that the minority administration can clean up this mess before they topple the govt on a populist issue. The govt doesn't need to do anything -which is unusual, just let the dispute play out to it's natural conclusion.

oppenheimer1 · 27-03-2017 06:46PM

BoatMad wrote: »

IE has no track , no trains and in essence carries 1% of interurban commuting

other then DART it has little effect on the travelling public , even in Dublin Heavy rail is 5% of commuters , DB/LUAS can easily handle Dart

IE is of completely zero consequence

The issue is DB

The more informed members may know if DB has a no strike clause in their agreement?
I have a feeling there is.

BoatMad · 27-03-2017 06:52PM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

This is also true. The story barely got a mention in the news over the weekend, there was more discussion on Seamus Coleman's leg than it.

The government we have at the moment might just be the one to take on the transport Unions, given the set up FF may decide that the minority administration can clean up this mess before they topple the govt on a populist issue. The govt doesn't need to do anything -which is unusual, just let the dispute play out to it's natural conclusion.

correct , inactivity brings resolution

anyway the means to fix this is actually not in the Govs hand, it has no mechanism to fix the strike issue. It cannot magically make BE profitable

n97 mini · 27-03-2017 06:54PM

Interesting tweets from GoBus about their Cork services, which are still suspended.

More: https://twitter.com/GoBusGalway/with_replies

BoatMad · 27-03-2017 06:56PM

n97 mini wrote: »

Interesting tweets from GoBus about their Cork services, which are still suspended.

More: https://twitter.com/GoBusGalway/with_replies

time to start jailing people that prevent people from earning a lawful living

Shamrock776 · 27-03-2017 07:04PM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

This is also true. The story barely got a mention in the news over the weekend, there was more discussion on Seamus Coleman's leg than it.

The government we have at the moment might just be the one to take on the transport Unions, given the set up FF may decide that the minority administration can clean up this mess before they topple the govt on a populist issue. The govt doesn't need to do anything -which is unusual, just let the dispute play out to it's natural conclusion.

Only way to nip these problems in the bud is close CIE and have 3 Independent semi state companies who are given a reasonable level of capital as a buffer and its then up to unions, management and staff to ensure it's a success or join the live register.

BoatMad · 27-03-2017 07:07PM

Shamrock776 wrote: »

Only way to nip these problems in the bud is close CIE and have 3 Independent semi state companies who are given a reasonable level of capital as a buffer and its then up to unions, management and staff to ensure it's a success or join the live register.

cant be done under EU state aid

Shamrock776 · 27-03-2017 07:09PM

BoatMad wrote: »

cant be done under EU state aid

EU are very flexible on rule bending and there always a back door route.

oppenheimer1 · 27-03-2017 07:09PM

BoatMad wrote: »

time to start jailing people that prevent people from earning a lawful living

I don't understand this. Shell got a permanent Garda presence in Mayo to prevent protesters disrupting their activity. Why weren't the gardai there to let this business go about it's lawful operation?

BoatMad · 27-03-2017 07:13PM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I don't understand this. Shell got a permanent Garda presence in Mayo to prevent protesters disrupting their activity. Why weren't the gardai there to let this business go about it's lawful operation?

unions and guards dont make good publicity , eco-freaks with beards and ponchos , well thats different:D

Hilly Bill · 27-03-2017 07:15PM

Shamrock776 wrote: »

They will only go if they know they can get a majority, this won't delver that. The whole IE and particularly DB is just to put pressure on as you can clearly see the media and most political members don't give a sh*t at the minute, you barley see it get coverage where as DB and Luas was non stop coverage.

Lack of notice was the real problem with IE...

IE didn't know themselves until people didn't show up. You can give the public a months notice and you will still get complaints that they wasn't told or why wasn't it on the radio that morning or that they don't have Internet..

Shamrock776 · 27-03-2017 07:18PM

Hilly Bill wrote: »

IE didn't know themselves until people didn't show up. You can give the public a months notice and you will still get complaints that they wasn't told or why wasn't it on the radio that morning or that they don't have Internet..

I'm aware IE didn't know however its situations like this why the monopoly needs to be completely broken up combined with any legal measures put in place to ensure that striking workers cannot obstruct another companies workers even if they are part of the same union.

BoatMad · 27-03-2017 07:30PM

Shamrock776 wrote: »

I'm aware IE didn't know however its situations like this why the monopoly needs to be completely broken up combined with any legal measures put in place to ensure that striking workers cannot obstruct another companies workers even if they are part of the same union.

in fairness, the issue was where Bus depots were on IE property , pickets placed there , were not passed by IE drivers, Ie was not sure what individual drivers would do until the morning

The laugh of course is that for example Waterford is where there is a BE depot , but drivers dont enter via that depot or anywhere near it.

remember its all a scam really

BowWow · 27-03-2017 08:11PM

BoatMad wrote: »

in fairness, the issue was where Bus depots were on IE property

Cork?

end of the road · 27-03-2017 08:16PM

BoatMad wrote: »

yes IE is irrelevant , rail service carry virtually no-one outside dublin and DB can handle Dart traffic

DB is a different kettle of fish

incorrect. rail is decently used and i don't believe dublin bus could handle the huge amounts caried by dart, having witnessed myself more times then i care to remember the huge amount of traffic using the dart service.

BoatMad wrote: »

If we have a transport strike , Gov should rapidly privatise Dublin city routes and remove DB monopoly

rapidly privatizing the city routes would have a huge potential to end up being nothing short of a shambles as the potential for missing things out is huge in my view.

BoatMad wrote: »

other then DART it has little effect on the travelling public , even in Dublin Heavy rail is 5% of commuters , DB/LUAS can easily handle Dart

it has quite a decent effect on numbers. in my experience when IE have gone on strike traffic has been hugely bad compared to usual. i don't believe the bus and luas could handle dart numbers on an ongoing basis.

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Absolutely.

Anyone with a modicum of sense would immediately break up the transport cartel.

it was broken up in 1987. there are now 3 companies unlike before 1987 where there was 1. you might get another company out of them in the form of other city services being separated out to a new section but that would be it from what i can see.

LeinsterDub · 27-03-2017 08:33PM

end of the road wrote: »

it was broken up in 1987. there are now 3 companies unlike before 1987 where there was 1. you might get another company out of them in the form of other city services being separated out to a new section but that would be it from what i can see.

Honest question what function does CIE serve now?

BoatMad · 27-03-2017 08:34PM

end of the road wrote: »

incorrect. rail is decently used and i don't believe dublin bus could handle the huge amounts caried by dart, having witnessed myself more times then i care to remember the huge amount of traffic using the dart service.

interurban rail is carrying less then 1% of travellers, its utterly irrelevant to the vast majority of commuters

rapidly privatizing the city routes would have a huge potential to end up being nothing short of a shambles as the potential for missing things out is huge in my view.

no reason why an integrated system carried be managed with private operators , Transport for London does an admirable job and the whole system is orders of magnitude better then Dublin . Private in a regulated system m doesnt mean chaos

it has quite a decent effect on numbers. in my experience when IE have gone on strike traffic has been hugely bad compared to usual. i don't believe the bus and luas could handle dart numbers on an ongoing basis.

people said the same thing about Luas , which carried almost twice as many passengers as DART https://fe49d9ec8511d2dc0553-f8f415f79bf5d37d632aa2f721fb6d7c.ssl.cf3.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Rail_Statistics_for_Ireland__Statistical_Bulletin_No._2_2016.pdf
and we lived with that strike

interurban rail carries 10 million , Bus services carry far more

it was broken up in 1987. there are now 3 companies unlike before 1987 where there was 1. you might get another company out of them in the form of other city services being separated out to a new section but that would be it from what i can see.

The companies remain with CIE, that was not a good idea

Bass Reeves · 27-03-2017 09:03PM

The game is up on this one. Chief Commercial Officer Stephen Kent stated that they cannot accept state aid for Expressway routes. This now prevents both the government from providing it or BE from accepting it. This now means that the issues within the expressway section of BE must be resolved by the workers represented by there unions and the management of the company. The longer the strike goes on the harder the cut will be.

I did not consider the winding up of BE was a possibility but now consider it a real possibility if the strikes continues into next week. It will be interesting to see if GoBe takes out an injunction to prevent the BE drivers interupting it business. The Competition Authority might also get involved. If BE opts for court protection and examinership the workers will face hard choices to save there jobs.

Time is against the workers even if other transport sector's opt to get involved this could be outside there scope within a week to ten day's. Examinership will entail wholesale layoffs . Remembers BE is paying penelty's for non performance of PSO obligation's.

BoatMad · 27-03-2017 09:06PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The game is up on this one. Chief Commercial Officer Stephen Kent stated that they cannot accept state aid for Expressway routes. This now prevents both the government from providing it or BE from accepting it. This now means that the issues within the expressway section of BE must be resolved by the workers represented by there unions and the management of the company. The longer the strike goes on the harder the cut will be.

I did not consider the winding up of BE was a possibility but now consider it a real possibility if the strikes continues into next week. It will be interesting to see if GoBe takes out an injunction to prevent the BE drivers interupting it business. The Competition Authority might also get involved. If BE opts for court protection and examinership the workers will face hard choices to save there jobs.

Time is against the workers even if other transport sector's opt to get involved this could be outside there scope within a week to ten day's. Examinership will entail wholesale layoffs . Remembers BE is paying penelty's for non performance of PSO obligation's.

The unions have argued that more of the Expressway services could be designated as PSOs and hence the Gov can subvent the company even more. Arguably thats hard to do where BE has private competition and these are the routes that BE is loosing money on hand over fist

But I suspect that will be the tack taken by the unions , more PSO designations and hence more subvention

Bass Reeves · 27-03-2017 09:14PM

BoatMad wrote: »

[

The unions have argued that more of the Expressway services could be designated as PSOs and hence the Gov can subvent the company even more. Arguably thats hard to do where BE has private competition and these are the routes that BE is loosing money on hand over fist

But I suspect that will be the tack taken by the unions , more PSO designations and hence more subvention

After Kent's intervention it would be very hard to justify. The EU commission is very strict on state aid, remember as wells lots of its customers have discovered the other operators for the first time and it may well be hard to recover market share. It is unlikely at this stage that Expressway will exist after this dispute.

BoatMad · 27-03-2017 09:17PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

After Kent's intervention it would be very hard to justify. The EU commission is very strict on state aid, remember as wells lots of its customers have discovered the other operators for the first time and it may well be hard to recover market share. It is unlikely at this stage that Expressway will exist after this dispute.

oh I agree I remember the rail strikes that effectively ended IE rail freight business , Customers like Irish Cement , brought in private trucks and then realised the world didnt fall in and in fact it was cheaper

the result was the unions won and the rail freight division that once employed 1000s now has 40 in it .

ClovenHoof · 27-03-2017 09:30PM

BoatMad wrote: »

oh I agree I remember the rail strikes that effectively ended IE rail freight business , Customers like Irish Cement , brought in private trucks and then realised the world didnt fall in and in fact it was cheaper

the result was the unions one and the rail freight division that once employed 1000s now has 40 in it .

And Spencer Dock now apartments. Brendan Ogle still remains a sinister figure whoes public profile and magical abilities remain mysterious...

end of the road · 27-03-2017 09:34PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The EU commission is very strict on state aid

EU countries often work around the restrictions. the commission may be strict on state aid but if they can't prove it has taken place then there is nothing they can do.

BoatMad · 27-03-2017 09:39PM

end of the road wrote: »

EU countries often work around the restrictions. the commission may be strict on state aid but if they can't prove it has taken place then there is nothing they can do.

so you expect the directors to turn a blind eye and engage in falsehoods , seriously

n97 mini · 27-03-2017 09:47PM

ClovenHoof wrote: »

And Spencer Dock now apartments. Brendan Ogle still remains a sinister figure whoes public profile and magical abilities remain mysterious...

The grief he and ILDA caused me. I got paid a day rate at the time and lost a lot of earnings. Mortgage to pay, kids to feed bla bla (sorry I sound like an NBRU member now)

Bass Reeves · 27-03-2017 09:49PM

end of the road wrote: »

EU countries often work around the restrictions. the commission may be strict on state aid but if they can't prove it has taken place then there is nothing they can do.

The CCO statement has eliminated that possibility. You also have to accept that other bus operators can litigate. Therefore your assumption above is incorrect

n97 mini · 27-03-2017 09:56PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The CCO statement has eliminated that possibility. You also have to accept that other bus operators can litigate. Therefore your assumption above is incorrect

And if they can prove it with the likes of Apple, spread across multiple countries....

devnull · 27-03-2017 10:11PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It will be interesting to see if GoBe takes out an injunction to prevent the BE drivers interupting it business.

Considering the fact that service is a partnership between the operators (GoBus) and the owners of the brand, bus terminus locations and marketing budget (Bus Eireann) that could be tricky and kill the relationship though if they were to do that so I doubt it will happen unless GoBus want out.

BoatMad wrote: »

The unions have argued that more of the Expressway services could be designated as PSOs and hence the Gov can subvent the company even more. Arguably thats hard to do where BE has private competition and these are the routes that BE is loosing money on hand over fist

Where there is no overlap at all with private routes and they have no competition I can see that happening and lets be fair, the route like the 21 which is being spoke about as rolling over if BE extinguish it as they plan, I'd have no problem with.

There is also an argument to drop some Towns (within licensing guidelines) on routes between the big cities that are making the commercial services nonviable and hive them off to their own PSO routes to connect with commercial services, providing it is not done in a way which requires a change to a criteria of a license which is not available*

* By this I mean for example, if a route has 10 stops between city A and city B, they should be allowed to trim it to 4-5 and then the nonviable stops get hived off to a connecting service as a PSO route. They shouldn't however be allowed to trim it to an express service, unless there was not already two operators who had such licenses, they should just be given options to stay as is, cut the stops within the permitted number for a license type, or give it up totally.

BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

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