Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

cosanostra · 25-03-2017 01:21AM

Irish Steve wrote: »

To put that in context. You have a windows computer (laptop) that one of your kids has just dropped into the bath. There is a mountain of critical information on the hard drive, and it's very important to you that it gets recovered. The work to do that, with certainty, is massive, and time consuming, and there's sometimes only one chance to get it right, especially if there is any damage to the device.

It's frustrating for the people on site, but they know that there is no way that they have the equipment or the expertise to gain access to the critical information that's in that box. It will be being transported to London in a sealed container of water, to prevent more damage, and prevent it drying out before they are ready to perform the correct preservation processes on it, and that's only the beginning of the process. The UK are world class at dealing with FDR hardware, and they have the set up to do it, so if there is information there, we can be confident that they will recover everything that can humanly be recovered from it.

I fully understand and agree with the strict protocols for this, the point I was making was that it must be very frustrating to have the answers to an unsolved investigation sitting in a box in front of you yet you can't touch it

Irish Steve · 25-03-2017 01:24AM

TomOnBoard wrote: »

The US FAA (I think its called the Code of Federal Regulations Title14) stipulates that voice recorders must be capable of recording totally independently of total aircraft power loss for something like minimum 10 minutes. Acknowledging that FAA rules might differ from those in Europe, is it likely that the R116 (being a US manufactured Sikorsky) at least provide this level of backup, in addition to or exceeding EU regs?

It may have, to be honest, the most important data is the flight data recorder rather than the voice recorder, and that can be seriously upset by failures that stop some devices from sending their data to the device, but that can in some cases also provide massive clues about what failed and the failure sequence. We should hopefully have a lot more information in the next few days,

...And Justice · 25-03-2017 01:31AM

Irish Steve wrote: »

It may have, to be honest, the most important data is the flight data recorder rather than the voice recorder, and that can be seriously upset by failures that stop some devices from sending their data to the device, but that can in some cases also provide massive clues about what failed and the failure sequence. We should hopefully have a lot more information in the next few days,

I hope we have news of the crew members in the morning. The web and its shoddy journalism is fcuking disgusting. Sorry for cursing mods. I'm frustrated. I understand it takes time to do data analysis, believe me I know.

Tenger · 25-03-2017 01:38AM

Statement posted on Irish Coast Guard facebook page at 0030:
The Irish Coast Guard along with An Garda Síochána have tonight released a statement confirming that a body has been found in the wreckage of Rescue 116 in the waters off Blackrock island. The identity has not been released but the family has been fully briefed and are aware of the situation. Recovery has not been possible at the time of the statement but intensive efforts continue.
We await further updates.

Short statement from Gardai Super posted on twitter account of press associations Ed Carthy:
https://twitter.com/EdCartyPA

Irish Steve · 25-03-2017 01:41AM

...And Justice wrote: »

I hope we have news of the crew members in the morning. The web and its shoddy journalism is fcuking disgusting. Sorry for cursing mods. I'm frustrated. I understand it takes time to do data analysis, believe me I know.

No need to apologise, there's been a few choice words flying around here this evening as well, but at least we had some resources in reserve today, which meant we could keep on top of what was going on.

I find what's happened this evening to be beyond contempt, to name an individual and then in the same story state that the investigators would not confirm their story is about as low as they could sink, and now the dust is settling some, I am very happy I took the line I did earlier.

Hopefully, we will get some better information in the morning, but for now, I can at least be happy that we did what had to be done in good conscience.

That said, I'm also glad it's not a popularity contest, when the posts are hitting the board faster than you can read them, that's when it gets hard.

Steve · 25-03-2017 01:42AM

...And Justice wrote: »

I hope we have news of the crew members in the morning. The web and its shoddy journalism is fcuking disgusting. Sorry for cursing mods. I'm frustrated. I understand it takes time to do data analysis, believe me I know.

We all hope for that and the frustration is evident in everyone's posts.

I'd like to commend most of the members here for the respect, patience, and understanding they have shown.

Coil Kilcrea · 25-03-2017 01:44AM

Steve wrote: »

We all hope for that and the frustration is evident in everyone's posts.

I'd like to commend most of the members here for the respect, patience, and understanding they have shown.

Much appreciated by many.

FrancieBrady · 25-03-2017 01:47AM

In relation to another air accident I wondered why this data cannot be transmitted back to base in some sort of over writable way, when the craft lands safely the space is ready to receive new data. Aircraft transmit in flight to their manufacturers already I believe. Would have helped massively in the last few years alone. Even in locating the wreckage.
Delighted some progress has been made today.

Atlantic Dawn · 25-03-2017 01:51AM

I don't know whether it's better with live updates or no updates, I think if it was a member of my family missing I would prefare a 12 hour plus blackout on media announcements.

FrancieBrady · 25-03-2017 01:52AM

Irish Steve wrote: »

No need to apologise, there's been a few choice words flying around here this evening as well, but at least we had some resources in reserve today, which meant we could keep on top of what was going on.

I find what's happened this evening to be beyond contempt, to name an individual and then in the same story state that the investigators would not confirm their story is about as low as they could sink, and now the dust is settling some, I am very happy I took the line I did earlier.

Hopefully, we will get some better information in the morning, but for now, I can at least be happy that we did what had to be done in good conscience.

That said, I'm also glad it's not a popularity contest, when the posts are hitting the board faster than you can read them, that's when it gets hard.

Fair play and well done. Rumour is awful at a time like this.

Steve · 25-03-2017 01:55AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

In relation to another air accident I wondered why this data cannot be transmitted back to base in some sort of over writable way, when the craft lands safely the space is ready to receive new data. Aircraft transmit in flight to their manufacturers already I believe. Would have helped massively in the last few years alone. Even in locating the wreckage.
Delighted some progress has been made today.

When you consider the amount of data involved and the amount of aircraft in the air at any given time, the infrastructure just isn't there to handle it yet.

In IT terms it's possible if you have access to a LAN but not on one of many aircraft, for example, that are mid atlantic.

TomOnBoard · 25-03-2017 01:57AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

In relation to another air accident I wondered why this data cannot be transmitted back to base in some sort of over writable way, when the craft lands safely the space is ready to receive new data. Aircraft transmit in flight to their manufacturers already I believe. Would have helped massively in the last few years alone. Even in locating the wreckage.
Delighted some progress has been made today.

Absolutely! However, there are serious bandwidth issues involved, and despite what we think would be nice, there ain't no high speed WiFi network available over the Atlantic. I think commercial passenger aircraft and possibly others use ACARS to send a small subset of available data from air to ground since the 1990s- a tiny fraction of what the Flight Data Recorder stores AFAIK.

In time, the infrastructure on high and out in the wilds will support better real time data comms, but when you remember the difficulty R116 and Shannon had simply making Raio contact with R118 last week, I think we're a bit away from it yet...

Irish Steve · 25-03-2017 01:58AM

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I don't know whether it's better with live updates or no updates, I think if it was a member of my family missing I would prefare a 12 hour plus blackout on media announcements.

I think that was what the team up in Blacksod were trying to achieve, it was very apparent at 17:00 that they had some news they didn't want to share, and I think that they were wanting to keep the information they clearly have about the crew under wraps until tomorrow morning at least, and maybe later, as another day diving will make a huge difference, given that a significant part of today was preparation work rather than actual diving. Hopefully, a full day of diving will change what they can and cannot say to the world, as they will have a much more comprehensive view of their divers hands on experience.

ED E · 25-03-2017 02:00AM

On a bureaucratic note, who has control of the scene? Is it the AAIU or Gardai? Seems strange to have AGS spokesman leading the media dialogue when the AAIU have expertise here. Are we the same as canada that crashes default to criminal investigations?

Atlantic Dawn · 25-03-2017 02:06AM

ED E wrote: »

On a bureaucratic note, who has control of the scene? Is it the AAIU or Gardai? Seems strange to have AGS spokesman leading the media dialogue when the AAIU have expertise here. Are we the same as canada that crashes default to criminal investigations?

Not sure, we can't even examine a black box here so I'd imagine it's down to outside forces to specify who holds the cards.

Tenger · 25-03-2017 02:07AM

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I don't know whether it's better with live updates or no updates, I think if it was a member of my family missing I would prefare a 12 hour plus blackout on media announcements.

I'm making an assumption here, but I expect that the families each have a liaison with them to keep them up to date with info as its received. Therefore no possibility of media contamination.

ED E wrote: »

On a bureaucratic note, who has control of the scene? Is it the AAIU or Gardai? Seems strange to have AGS spokesman leading the media dialogue when the AAIU have expertise here. Are we the same as canada that crashes default to criminal investigations?

Well the 1700 press conference seemed very much in the hands of the AAIU but with equal respect/responsibility towards AGS. If you watched it you will have seen the way they both differed to each other at certain points.
The twitter link I posted above was of the Garda Superintendent but the AAIU spokesperson was visible in the back.
Personally I dont care so long as the operation runs smoothly and we get the crew recovered for their families as soon as possible.

TomOnBoard · 25-03-2017 02:10AM

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I don't know whether it's better with live updates or no updates, I think if it was a member of my family missing I would prefare a 12 hour plus blackout on media announcements.

The balance needed sometimes requires the wisdom of Solomon. However, unfortunately there comes a point where the families' wishes become subservient to the need for wider constituencies of interested parties to get access to information as soon as it has been validated. That's why family support teams are put in place while crisis investigation teams get on with their job(s).

A dreadfully tough call for anyone to have to make on a human level. However, every hour of every day, such decisions have to be made by professionals in spheres such as Emergency Medicine. I know maaaany health care profs who have to deal with this kind of stuff every day they turn up for work. The important thing is to have a protocol for dealing with it and that your organisation trains you to carry out such protocols.

I hope I'm not coming across as uncaring or crass... Believe me, I could not do any of their jobs!

Means Of Escape · 25-03-2017 02:12AM

tricky D wrote: »

We would like to show a bit of class here unlike other outlets doing cheap scoops and wait at least until the families have been informed. Soon after that there will be official announcements and we will know the actual situation and then can have a decent and respectful discussion.

If the journal posted the recovery of a named crew member 3 hours ago (an hour before you posted the above statement)one would expect that his family would have been notified long before that point ?

TomOnBoard · 25-03-2017 02:18AM

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Not sure, we can't even examine a black box here so I'd imagine it's down to outside forces to specify who holds the cards.

I agree that we probably don't have the capability to examine the Black Box here. However, that is very different from who "holds the cards".

Legal authority and responsibility does not depend on having a technical competence. Earlier, in response to a question I asked, a poster said that the UK authority which has significant experience of dealing with Black Boxes would be doing the examination/analysis. And that's great! However, while they are doing that exam/analysis they will be entirely subservient to Irish authority. In my view, and there seems to be agreement here, the ultimate responsible agency is the AAIU

Irish Steve · 25-03-2017 02:22AM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

If the journal posted the recovery of a named crew member 3 hours ago (an hour before you posted the above statement)one would expect that his family would have been notified long before that point ?

The issue earlier, and not resolved by the statement issued at 0030 is that there had been NO official information release from the people in charge of the recovery.

I am not in the loop for information from the family, so I don't know what the family have or have not been told.

All I had to go on some 3 hours ago was one tabloid paper that had released that one of the 3 missing crew members had been found, (NOT recovered) but to then make things complicated, they stated that the official sources had not confirmed their story. Much later, an official statement was made that one crew member had been found, but had not yet been recovered. On that basis, I believe it was utterly disrespectful to name the individual given that the official sources were not prepared to release that name, which could have been as a result of the family requesting time to notify relatives of the change of information.

Steve · 25-03-2017 02:34AM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

If the journal posted the recovery of a named crew member 3 hours ago (an hour before you posted the above statement)one would expect that his family would have been notified long before that point ?

To clarify, several news outlets posted that remains of a crew member were found in the wreckage of R116. Nobody has confirmed the identity.

Until there is an official statement on this, we are not allowing discussion or speculation.

End of story.

Rodin · 25-03-2017 02:41AM

AGS should probably not have specified that the body was found in the cockpit...

This only leads to the obvious assumption...

Would have been better to just say a body was found and leave it at that...

TomOnBoard · 25-03-2017 02:44AM

Irish Steve wrote: »

The issue earlier, and not resolved by the statement issued at 0030 is that there had been NO official information release from the people in charge of the recovery.

Absolutely correct.

Irish Steve wrote: »

All I had to go on some 3 hours ago was one tabloid paper that had released that one of the 3 missing crew members had been found, (NOT recovered) but to then make things complicated, they stated that the official sources had not confirmed their story. Much later, an official statement was made that one crew member had been found, but had not yet been recovered. On that basis, I believe it was utterly disrespectful to name the individual given that the official sources were not prepared to release that name, which could have been as a result of the family requesting time to notify relatives of the change of information.

Not only was it disrespectful to name one of the crew members definitively, but it was possibly illegal.

No-one can decide whose remains lie beneath the waves in whatever situation. All anyone can say is that, based on recent statements, human remains were found in the cockpit of the aircraft.

Until such time as that person's remains are recovered, AND SUBJECTED TO LEGAL IDENTIFICATION PROCESSES, NO NAME IS LEGALLY POSSIBLE AS NO IDENTIFICATION HAS TAKEN PLACE.

One of the Mods posted a hope earlier that the people on here would show more 'class' than others by exercising some discretion in relation to all that reportage... I was slightly 'leery' of that notion, although fully agreed with its sentiment. At the time, I hadn't crystallised why I was a bit leery. But, I know now why I felt that way.

It wasn't about showing more 'class'- It was simply about showing humanity!

Sorry for 'SHOUTING'!

tricky D · 25-03-2017 02:52AM

The 'out of hours' 0030 statement looks like a firefighting one on foot of the media report, when they likely wanted to hold until tomorrow when more and better info might be available. Generally, though not always, recovery, or at least planning of same would precede such an action. /imho

Tenger · 25-03-2017 02:54AM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

If the journal posted the recovery of a named crew member 3 hours ago (an hour before you posted the above statement)one would expect that his family would have been notified long before that point ?

Already mentioned in thread that journal article was essentially a repost/copy and paste of the Redtop Irish Mirror online article. (which I will not honour with a link)

FrancieBrady · 25-03-2017 03:02AM

Steve wrote: »

When you consider the amount of data involved and the amount of aircraft in the air at any given time, the infrastructure just isn't there to handle it yet.

In IT terms it's possible if you have access to a LAN but not on one of many aircraft, for example, that are mid atlantic.

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Absolutely! However, there are serious bandwidth issues involved, and despite what we think would be nice, there ain't no high speed WiFi network available over the Atlantic. I think commercial passenger aircraft and possibly others use ACARS to send a small subset of available data from air to ground since the 1990s- a tiny fraction of what the Flight Data Recorder stores AFAIK.

In time, the infrastructure on high and out in the wilds will support better real time data comms, but when you remember the difficulty R116 and Shannon had simply making Raio contact with R118 last week, I think we're a bit away from it yet...

Understood, but surely some info is better than none. Develop the tech onboard, maybe it won't work all the time, hut it probably would have here. What would be the downside?

faoiarvok · 25-03-2017 03:10AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

In relation to another air accident I wondered why this data cannot be transmitted back to base in some sort of over writable way, when the craft lands safely the space is ready to receive new data. Aircraft transmit in flight to their manufacturers already I believe. Would have helped massively in the last few years alone. Even in locating the wreckage.
Delighted some progress has been made today.

Airliners do transmit data to base, but it is extremely limited data at very intermittent intervals.

We are all very accustomed to almost instant communications with other inhabited parts of the world, but large parts of the globe are only covered by satellite communications, which are far slower and less reliable than most would think.

ACARS (by which most of the airliner data alluded to is transmitted) is a protocol that was designed decades ago. While the technical capability for better quality comms may exist, the aviation industry is rightly unwilling to rely on a service with an uptime that is not orders of magnitude better than the world's largest web services.

This may be very frustrating in a situation such as this, but as with most things aviation, the technology must be well proven before becoming even a backup system, let alone a primary one.

L1011 · 25-03-2017 03:13AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

In relation to another air accident I wondered why this data cannot be transmitted back to base in some sort of over writable way, when the craft lands safely the space is ready to receive new data. Aircraft transmit in flight to their manufacturers already I believe. Would have helped massively in the last few years alone. Even in locating the wreckage.
Delighted some progress has been made today.

Cost. Also, nobody can ever guarantee 100% uptime at the receiving end, let alone the data networks.

faoiarvok · 25-03-2017 03:15AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Understood, but surely some info is better than none. Develop the tech onboard, maybe it won't work all the time, hut it probably would have here. What would be the downside?

The aircraft in question was reporting position and a few other parameters to the manufacturer and/or operator.

jimmycrackcorm · 25-03-2017 03:16AM

Rodin wrote:

Would have been better to just say a body was found and leave it at that...

AGS are getting it rough for not being very truthful recently.

Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

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