Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

duskyjoe · 24-03-2017 11:23PM

Plus 1 here too for Steve. Just reading Nine Lives A helicopter rescue Pilot in Ireland by Dave Courtney.......it's a definite read especially chapter nine where he goes into detail re landing at blacksod and the acute danger of doing so in the dark of night.

vicwatson · 24-03-2017 11:29PM

The modding has been par excellence on this thread. Kudos to the mods.

Tenger · 24-03-2017 11:30PM

For those of you who may not have seen the footage....there was a periscope broadcast/clip earlier from a journo called Pat McGrath. It was an short press conference with Jurgen Whyte, a Gardai Super and Coast Guard rep. (Sorry, cant recall names right now)
This was where they announced the retrieval of the black box. They were also extremely precise in the wording they used when pressed about the crew recovery. This is the current official statement on the operation.

Steve · 24-03-2017 11:39PM

If you wish to go discuss unconfirmed reports, the rest of the internet is at your disposal.
For now, here, you can't.
It's that simple.

Thanks.

And thanks to those who agree with the mods stance on this.

DBB · 24-03-2017 11:41PM

...And Justice wrote: »

The Journal are reporting 1 found. It's not a secret anymore, the others haven't.

You're missing the point. The mods here have said they'll reinstate posts once this part of this story has an official basis to it. Maybe it will 5 mins from now, maybe it won't be til morning. But until then, family and friends of the lost crew have expressed their gratitude to the mods here for trying to put the brakes on the speculation. That alone, to me anyway, completely justifies the mods' approach.

TomOnBoard · 24-03-2017 11:42PM

Irish Steve wrote: »

Mod Update I am on the horns of a very hard dilemma.

Decision made on a judgement call. Some will agree/others not. Such is life.

Irish Steve wrote: »

Mod Update

I may end up regretting this...

Regardless of whether reports end up being correct or otherwise, you had to make a call one way or another, given that further info is not likely to be confirmed or otherwise until the a.m. at least. Someone has to moderate this space. Again, decision made... If that decision is subsequently seen as having been unduly cautious, so be it. I'd prefer discretion to prevail at this point given that so much was achieved today by the recovery services in the collection of the Black Box; regarding matters not further mentioned/elucidated upon by Jurgen White at this time, I'm satisfied to wait until tomorrow.

tricky D · 24-03-2017 11:46PM

We would like to show a bit of class here unlike other outlets doing cheap scoops and wait at least until the families have been informed. Soon after that there will be official announcements and we will know the actual situation and then can have a decent and respectful discussion.

tricky D · 25-03-2017 12:04AM

Can we please cease the mod actions discussion as it pretty much always ends up derailing the thread. A decision has been made at many levels and we will be sticking to it. Any comments and replies which risk derailing the thread may be removed.

If any poster wants further clarification then a PM me is what you need to do.

Coil Kilcrea · 25-03-2017 12:09AM

Metric Tensor wrote: »

As a silent reader since the start I would support a temporary locking of this thread until the morning (barring any overnight developments).

Can't see anything other than problems happening in here overnight.

There's no need to lock anything. Respectfully, and rightfully in my judgement, we've been asked for reasons which have been very well explained, not to discuss the article or its content until it's confirmed officially.

The Rescue services have acted with enormous class throughout. Clearly, they will share what they can as they have the facts. They have been very open so far.

Tenger · 25-03-2017 12:09AM

We are again at a very fast moving news cycle stage of this incident. The mods (and boards,ie) have made a judgement call on the handling of this discussion amongst our community. We cannot control the other sites racing for the click and the shares elsewhere.

We realise that the families of the R116 crew will no doubt have SAR liasion officers with them to provide them with instant updates of the search and recovery operation. We arent claiming to be a source of info for a wider audience.
However we are aware of a greater awareness of the posts made here than individuals/members may not realise.

We are askng for respect and restraint from posters here. As TricktD said, we are not looking for fast scoops.
We would prefer that we do not have to enforce it, unfortunately we had to do so last week with bans for repeatedly infringements of normal site regs.

StewartGriffin · 25-03-2017 12:10AM

Oh quit the amatuer melodramatics and just lock the thread. Not like anyone would really care, it's just a web message board after all.

Get over yourselves.

Mod edit:
User banned for this.

vicwatson · 25-03-2017 12:12AM

From twit land - hope this is ok mods ? as it's from an official source

Rescue 117‏ @R117Waterford
We recognize the emerging reports regarding our #Rescue116 colleagues. We won't comment at this time. Thank you for your continuous support.

Gaoth Laidir · 25-03-2017 12:13AM

I agree with if only for the reason of not giving those rags exposure. Hopefully they'll see that too.

Storm 10 · 25-03-2017 12:16AM

If the story is not true they should be ashamed of themselves, on the other side if it is true the powers that be should not let it gather momentum without clarification

TomOnBoard · 25-03-2017 12:26AM

Storm 10 wrote: »

If the story is not true they should be ashamed of themselves, on the other side if it is true the powers that be should not let it gather momentum without clarification

It appears to me that communications management has been very well handled by the CG & AAIU throughout this crisis. They've been largely on the ball with respect to what they've done and said, although I have some issues with the accuracy of elements of RTE's reporting recently.

That said, I feel we're all at a critical juncture over the next day or so. One of the crucial parts of any communications strategy is for the message to be managed in a way that the strategy stays out ahead of the posse of news agencies that are following the story so that the official word leads and the hounds follow, rather than the other way around. I think AAIU and CG may need to consider a) more frequent press releases even if only to say "nothing to report" and b) copper-fastening their position as the true and objective information sources by keeping the hounds inside the tent peeing out, rather than.... etc..

jimmycrackcorm · 25-03-2017 12:31AM

Storm 10 wrote:

If the story is not true they should be ashamed of themselves, on the other side if it is true the powers that be should not let it gather momentum without clarification

If it is true then the thoughts that have hit me in the realization are absolutely more gut wrenching than anything so far.

All I can say is that the effort being put into the recovery is simply beyond par.

TomOnBoard · 25-03-2017 12:40AM

On a separate note, and in the interests of moving on, am I correct to assume that the AAIU is now the legal custodian of the recovered Data/Voice recorder and that any processing in the UK will be happening under AAIU control rather than under the control of some other organisation eg., Sikorsky, CHC or other(s)?

Secondly, in order to understand the tasks involved, is the retrieved unit some kind of an element-proofed hard drive unit that can have its data downloaded and read by an existing "reader", or does the device need to be processed by some deeply scientific processes before it can be used? I recall that shortly after the loss of Rescue116, some officials suggested that the data recorder could be used to power a "re-flight" of the stricken aircraft that may, in conjunction with the voice recordings, provide very early results.

scuby · 25-03-2017 12:42AM

Pat McGrath, rte, just confirming one crew member found, no name more on RTE 11:44

vicwatson · 25-03-2017 12:48AM

From twitty land again

9m
Pat McGrath‏ @patmcgrath
Gardai confirm one crew member found on wreckage of R116. Identity not confirmed. No word on two other crew as yet.More on @rtenews at 11:44

Steve · 25-03-2017 12:50AM

Folks, if you are quoting official sources we are happy with that. Can I ask you please post a link with the quote as well.

thanks.

TomOnBoard · 25-03-2017 12:52AM

Steve wrote: »

Folks, if you are quoting official sources we are happy with that. Can I ask you please post a link with the quote as well.

thanks.

Just presented on RTE News right now. NOTE: No identification. Recovery efforts by the ROV continuing overnight with a view to "secure" the remains and bring them ashore. Divers on standby.

vicwatson · 25-03-2017 12:52AM

Steve wrote: »

Folks, if you are quoting official sources we are happy with that. Can I ask you please post a link with the quote as well.

thanks.

Sorry, just literally copy and pasting

faoiarvok · 25-03-2017 12:52AM

TomOnBoard wrote: »

On a separate note, and in the interests of moving on, am I correct to assume that the AAIU is now the legal custodian of the recovered Data/Voice recorder and that any processing in the UK will be happening under AAIU control rather than under the control of some other organisation eg., Sikorsky, CHC or other(s)?

Secondly, in order to understand the tasks involved, is the retrieved unit some kind of an element-proofed hard drive unit that can have its data downloaded and read by an existing "reader", or does the device need to be processed by some deeply scientific processes before it can be used? I recall that shortly after the loss of Rescue116, some officials suggested that the data recorder could be used to power a "re-flight" of the stricken aircraft that may, in conjunction with the voice recordings, provide very early results.

Any AAIU accident report I've read that involved black box data mentioned that the data had been downloaded by the AAIB on the AAIU's behalf. 'Ownership' of the recorder would never be turned over to a manufacturer/operator who may have some stake in the outcome of the investigation.

Mech1 · 25-03-2017 12:53AM

https://twitter.com/patmcgrath

spaceHopper · 25-03-2017 12:55AM

TomOnBoard wrote: »

On a separate note, and in the interests of moving on, am I correct to assume that the AAIU is now the legal custodian of the recovered Data/Voice recorder and that any processing in the UK will be happening under AAIU control rather than under the control of some other organisation eg., Sikorsky, CHC or other(s)?

Secondly, in order to understand the tasks involved, is the retrieved unit some kind of an element-proofed hard drive unit that can have its data downloaded and read by an existing "reader", or does the device need to be processed by some deeply scientific processes before it can be used? I recall that shortly after the loss of Rescue116, some officials suggested that the data recorder could be used to power a "re-flight" of the stricken aircraft that may, in conjunction with the voice recordings, provide very early results.

Read somewhere that it's a P&G combined voice and data recorder. They are made to survive a crash. Getting the data off should be fairly straight forward.

Irish Steve · 25-03-2017 12:57AM

TomOnBoard wrote: »

On a separate note, and in the interests of moving on, am I correct to assume that the AAIU is now the legal custodian of the recovered Data/Voice recorder and that any processing in the UK will be happening under AAIU control rather than under the control of some other organisation eg., Sikorsky, CHC or other(s)?

Secondly, in order to understand the tasks involved, is the retrieved unit some kind of an element-proofed hard drive unit that can have its data downloaded and read by an existing "reader", or does the device need to be processed by some deeply scientific processes before it can be used? I recall that shortly after the loss of Rescue116, some officials suggested that the data recorder could be used to power a "re-flight" of the stricken aircraft that may, in conjunction with the voice recordings, provide very early results.

It is now in the hands of the Irish AAIU, and they will convey it to the UK, where the UK AAIU will carry out whatever processes are required in order to extract as much data from the device as can be got. At this stage, it will have to be washed to remove the salt and any other contamination, then dried, and inspected for damage, and they will probably then have to open the outer case to gain access to the recording devices inside.

I don't know if they are disc based or solid state memory, but there will be 2 sets of information in it, the CVR will be all the audio recorded from headsets, and internal microphones, so a complete sound track of what went on inside the cabin, which will include any audio warnings that were generated by the instruments.

On the FDR side, there will be a massive number of parameters from instruments, flight controls, and things like altitude and attitude indicators, and yes, it will be possible to use the information from that section of the device to replay in very fine detail exactly what happened to the aircraft for a considerable period before the eventual end of recording.

There are several caveats. The first is that there is no damage to the recorder that means they cannot get some or all of the data, and the second is that there was no catastrophic failure of the aircraft that resulted in a total loss of electrical power to the recorders before the final crash,

Jurgen whyte said earlier that it was in "excellent mechanical condition", which is a hopeful sign that the information on the recorder will answer the questions that we cannot ask the crew, and it should fill in the gaps in the information about the "why" of this accident.

Gaoth Laidir · 25-03-2017 12:58AM

Jurgen also said it would be read by Monday or Tuesday.

cosanostra · 25-03-2017 01:04AM

It must be very frustrating for investigators having to follow strict protocol while investigating and having the box in front of you but not being able to open it and figure out what happened

TomOnBoard · 25-03-2017 01:12AM

Irish Steve wrote: »

the second is that there was no catastrophic failure of the aircraft that resulted in a total loss of electrical power to the recorders before the final crash,

The US FAA (I think its called the Code of Federal Regulations Title14) stipulates that voice recorders must be capable of recording totally independently of total aircraft power loss for something like minimum 10 minutes. Acknowledging that FAA rules might differ from those in Europe, is it likely that the R116 (being a US manufactured Sikorsky) at least provide this level of backup, in addition to or exceeding EU regs?

Irish Steve · 25-03-2017 01:14AM

cosanostra wrote: »

It must be very frustrating for investigators having to follow strict protocol while investigating and having the box in front of you but not being able to open it and figure out what happened

To put that in context. You have a windows computer (laptop) that one of your kids has just dropped into the bath. There is a mountain of critical information on the hard drive, and it's very important to you that it gets recovered. The work to do that, with certainty, is massive, and time consuming, and there's sometimes only one chance to get it right, especially if there is any damage to the device.

It's frustrating for the people on site, but they know that there is no way that they have the equipment or the expertise to gain access to the critical information that's in that box. It will be being transported to London in a sealed container of water, to prevent more damage, and prevent it drying out before they are ready to perform the correct preservation processes on it, and that's only the beginning of the process. The UK are world class at dealing with FDR hardware, and they have the set up to do it, so if there is information there, we can be confident that they will recover everything that can humanly be recovered from it.

Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

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