The Hazards of Belief

recedite · 24-03-2017 07:49PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

Wow.

Are you not a fan of the secular republic then? Based on the ideals of the Enlightenment, with immigrants exchanging old religious and nationalistic based enmities for US citizenship, to live in peace with equal rights?

Sad that in your desperation to be the most politically correct person around, and to be the first to take offence on behalf of the underdog (even a rabid one) you are blind to what really matters.

silverharp · 24-03-2017 08:09PM

recedite wrote: »

Are you not a fan of the secular republic then? Based on the ideals of the Enlightenment, with immigrants exchanging old religious and nationalistic based enmities for US citizenship, to live in peace with equal rights?

Sad that in your desperation to be the most politically correct person around, and to be the first to take offence on behalf of the underdog (even a rabid one) you are blind to what really matters.

in the way that history rhymes when Irish terrorists in the US started attacking settlements in Canada it had the effect of fostering nationalism in Canda and spurred on confederation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenian_raids

Support for the Fenian Brotherhood's invasion of Canada quickly disappeared and there was no real threat after the 1890s. Nevertheless, the raids had an important effect on all Canadians.
The Fenian raids caused an increased anti-American feeling in Canada and the Maritimes because of the U.S. government's perceived tolerance of the Fenians when they were meeting openly and preparing for the raids.[16] The raids also aroused a martial spirit among Canadians by testing the militia's strength. Because of their poor performance, the militia took efforts to improve themselves. This was achieved without the huge cost of a real war.[21] The greatest impact of the Fenian raids was in the developing a sense of Canadian nationalism and leading the provinces into a Confederation. This was seen as necessary for survival and self-defense; the raids showed Canadians that safety lay in unity and were an important factor in creating the modern nation-state of Canada.

PopePalpatine · 24-03-2017 10:40PM

There's no uppity minorities or females in one's fantasies about being a Bronze Age ruler. :rolleyes:

Jan_de_Bakker · 25-03-2017 07:47PM

silverharp wrote: »

Sargon not a fan of it , an attempt at a modern Blasphemy law?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nEGdKeT4B0

Thats exactly what it is, lefties embrace it though as it's blasphemy against Islam ... if it were Christianity though it would be a very different story.

Astounding the way the modern left has aligned itself with Islam.

oscarBravo · 25-03-2017 10:38PM

Jan_de_Bakker wrote: »

Astounding the way the modern left has aligned itself with Islam.

Against bigotry ≠ with Islam.

recedite · 25-03-2017 11:30PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

Against bigotry != with Islam.

Wow.

robindch · 26-03-2017 06:17AM

Mod:

recedite wrote: »

Sad that in your desperation to be the most politically correct person around, and to be the first to take offence on behalf of the underdog (even a rabid one) you are blind to what really matters.

No need to personalize this (especially using the silly term "politically correct" :rolleyes:).

recedite · 27-03-2017 07:46AM

"Politically correct" is a valid phrase.
Take the proposition/equation "Against bigotry != with Islam" or its corollary
"Not with Islam = bigot". Signalling that you are a bigot is obviously less politic than signalling that you are "not a bigot".

However, if you consider that Islam itself is not a "good" or "correct" ideology, then you are going to be stuck with the label "= bigot", which may be the more "correct" choice, but its also the less "politic" one.

Pawwed Rig · 27-03-2017 10:28AM

I took the != to mean 'does not equal'. Am I wrong here?

oscarBravo · 27-03-2017 11:46AM

recedite wrote: »

Take the proposition/equation "Against bigotry != with Islam" or its corollary
"Not with Islam = bigot".

Your logic needs work.

A cat is not a dog.
Therefore, that which is not a cat is a dog.

That's not how corollaries work.

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I took the != to mean 'does not equal'. Am I wrong here?

Nope.

robindch · 27-03-2017 11:50AM

recedite wrote: »

"Politically correct" is a valid phrase.

It may be, but when used by people who self-describe as "right wing", it has an unfortunate tendency to be used as a term of offence. Best avoid the term really.

I would also suggest that as you may not be privy to oscarBravo's private intentions in writing that post, your imputation that (s)he's doing this in order to curry some kind of favour with other forum posters (?) seems, at best, wildly over-confident and therefore, almost certainly wrong.

recedite · 27-03-2017 05:11PM

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I took the != to mean 'does not equal'. Am I wrong here?

Well that puts a completely different spin on it then. Its probably best not to use a programming language in text, unless you are posting on a forum specifically for computer programmers.

oscarBravo · 27-03-2017 05:52PM

recedite wrote: »

Well that puts a completely different spin on it then. Its probably best not to use a programming language in text, unless you are posting on a forum specifically for computer programmers.

My bad, it didn't occur to me that anyone wouldn't understand what I meant, particularly in context. I've edited my original post to hopefully make my meaning clearer.

Hotblack Desiato · 30-03-2017 06:30PM

Hazard: realising far too late it's all a load of old cobblers

Catholic doctrines ‘no longer make sense’, says Fr Tony Flannery

(did they ever? anyway...)

Redemptorist priest Fr Tony Flannery has questioned traditional Catholic Church teachings on God, Mary and the Trinity, which he said, “no longer make sense to the modern mind, and are being quietly rejected even by people who still attend church”.

Some of these doctrines, he said, “are not scripture based” and come from “a time when there was a very different understanding of the world and of humanity”.

So he's gone protestant, then?

Science revealed that “creation was not just an event of ancient history, but is an ongoing reality”, he said.

So “it makes more sense to many to view God as the spirit/energy/consciousness/presence in the whole of creation; a being that is in, and with all, aspects of creation including all humanity”, he said.

Or maybe a deist?

He felt however that “maybe the most problematic area of all Catholic doctrine is the teaching on Mary”. He wondered “how many of us really believe in the nativity stories and the virgin birth, and that Mary remained a virgin all her life and had no other children?”
People, he said, were “rejecting these doctrines as childish fantasies, and walking away from it all”.

Didn't even go there on the old transubstantiation thing...

robindch · 30-03-2017 07:27PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Catholic doctrines ‘no longer make sense’, says Fr Tony Flannery

At least he has the courage of his convictions to come out and say it.

Poor chap - gets to the end of his life only to realize he backed a non-existent horse.

Hotblack Desiato · 30-03-2017 09:07PM

I'm no fan of the clergy or religious orders, but I do feel a bit sorry for those who were kids in the 50s when being Irish and RC meant you were one of god's chosen people (why god made so many of his chosen people in a small impoverished country, most of whom had to leave it, was not explained)
Then Vatican II came along and they signed up, mostly barely adults if that, thinking they could change the world.
In the late 1960s laity and even some clergy thought that Pope Paul VI would permit contraception, maybe just maybe relax celibacy?!? but instead the bans were restated and the RC church began a drift back towards conservatism, copperfastened by the bishops and cardinals appointed by JPII and Benny.
So for the last 50 years the RC church has continued to move ever more out of step with its laity and crisis point has long been passed at this stage. The jig's up and Flannery (and all the others who don't dare speak out) know it.

silverharp · 31-03-2017 10:46PM

in the quiet words of the Virgin Mary.....

https://twitter.com/JPY_Kurdish/status/847643622094667778

Jan_de_Bakker · 03-04-2017 08:19AM

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-39475462

A former Dutch MP and prominent critic of conservative Islam, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, has cancelled a speaking tour of Australia and New Zealand citing security concerns.
The Somali-born author was to appear on Australian TV on Monday before starting her tour, titled "Hero of Heresy".
But she pulled out due to "a number of reasons including security concerns", event organiser Think Inc said.
Ms Hirsi Ali has faced death threats in the past.

Dangerous times for free speech, you would think the left and feminists would embrace Aayan Hirsi Ali with what she has been through.

Trent Houseboat · 03-04-2017 02:23PM

Jan_de_Bakker wrote:

Dangerous times for free speech, you would think the left and feminists would embrace Aayan Hirsi Ali with what she has been through.

One would assume from the article, and the theme of this entire thread, that the threats were from Islamists. Not really sure why you think it was da left or feminists. Unless of course we're playing a game of "Why aren't the feminists protesting X?", which has noting to do with this thread and looks like a childish attempt on your behalf to shoe-horn in an unrelated slight on a broad range of people. Dangerous times indeed when posters are using threats against others to score points.

Jan_de_Bakker · 03-04-2017 03:41PM

Nope, there are protest videos from feminists against her ... like this beauty
https://twitter.com/Sacha_Saeen/status/848686438715727872

YEah, aren't you lucky she doesn't speak for you - she does however speak for millions of women in the middle east/africa without a voice ..

Hotblack Desiato · 04-04-2017 06:15PM

Didn't see this mentioned here, but last week the Oireachtas Committee on Procedures and Privileges decided to continue to have a christian prayer at the start of each day.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/dáil-prayer-to-continue-while-dress-code-ruling-deferred-1.3029714

The prayer goes: “Direct, we beseech Thee, O Lord, our actions by Thy holy inspirations and carry them on by Thy gracious assistance; that every word and work of ours may always begin from Thee, and by Thee be happily ended; through Christ our Lord. Amen.”

recedite · 04-04-2017 06:41PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Oireachtas Committee on Procedures and Privileges decided to continue to have a christian prayer at the start of each day.

80% of those taking the online poll in that IT link think the Committee are wrong.

Hotblack Desiato · 04-04-2017 11:54PM

Oh dear.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/offbeat/easter-egg-hunt-spits-on-the-grave-of-cadbury-archbishop-1.3036031

Archbishop of York Dr John Sentamu accused the chocolate giant [Cadbury's] of “spitting on the grave” of its religious founder by removing references to Christianity’s most sacred festival from the spring event it runs nationwide with the conservation charity.

Church leaders criticised the National Trust for “airbrushing” Christianity out of its chocolate egg hunt, after a rebrand led to the renaming of the “Easter Egg Trail” as the “Great British Egg Hunt”.

Pity about them.

Aren't they aware of the pagan origins of Easter which long pre-date the nailed-up guy (rather an ironic death for a carpenter, n'est-ce pas?)

Nothing religious in itself about calling a festival Easter (unless you're a pagan) so none of the usual abrahamic faiths who get needlessly uptight about stuff should be getting uptight...

PopePalpatine · 05-04-2017 12:38AM

The funny thing is that John Cadbury was a Quaker who didn't celebrate Easter.

But who cares about the truth when you can earn some brownie points among the Torygraph classes? :rolleyes:

silverharp · 05-04-2017 09:00AM

jaypers

http://www.thejournal.ie/muslim-india-cow-3324712-Apr2017/

A MUSLIM MAN has died after he was attacked by hundreds of Hindu vigilantes while transporting cows in India, police said today, amid rising tensions over the slaughter of the sacred animal.

Pehlu Khan, 55, died in hospital late on Monday, two days after a mob attacked his cattle truck on a highway in Alwar in the western state of Rajasthan.

...
At least 10 Muslim men have been killed in similar incidents across the country by Hindu mobs on suspicion of eating beef or smuggling cows in the last two years.
In 2015, a Muslim man was lynched by his neighbours over rumours that he had slaughtered a cow. Police later said the meat was mutton.

MrPudding · 05-04-2017 01:10PM

silverharp wrote: »

jaypers

http://www.thejournal.ie/muslim-india-cow-3324712-Apr2017/

When a person can be killed "on suspicion of eating beef" that is the point where someone needs to stop, think, and have a word.

MrP

robindch · 05-04-2017 02:37PM

The owners of the Supreme Court in Russia have asked the SC to determine whether the Jehovah Witnesses constitute an "extremist organization":

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39500648
http://www.rapsinews.com/judicial_news/20170405/278171927.html

While the bias of rulings issued by the Russian SC are not directly comparable to judgment rates issued by lower courts, the ~99% conviction rate seen in lower courts suggests that the SC may well find the government's case persuasive.

recedite · 06-04-2017 05:12PM

In 2004, a court in Moscow dissolved and banned a Jehovah’s Witnesses group on charges of recruiting children, encouraging believers to break from their families, inciting suicide and preventing believers from accepting medical assistance.

Its an interesting dilemma, whether or not a country should ban a cult from operating, if the ban is deemed to be in the public interest. IMO any such decision should depend on the amount of harm the cult is likely to cause to the individuals caught up in it. That versus "the right" of people to be crazy if they want to be.

recedite · 06-04-2017 05:14PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

The funny thing is that John Cadbury was a Quaker who didn't celebrate Easter.

But who cares about the truth when you can earn some brownie points among the Torygraph classes? :rolleyes:

Well I think you'll have to cite some evidence that Quakers don't celebrate Easter (or at least that John Cadbury didn't, for some reason)
Otherwise I'll stick with the conventional wisdom.

PopePalpatine · 06-04-2017 07:05PM

recedite wrote: »

Well I think you'll have to cite some evidence that Quakers don't celebrate Easter (or at least that John Cadbury didn't, for some reason)
Otherwise I'll stick with the conventional wisdom.

Here you go:

In common with other Christian denominations derived from the 16th century Puritanism, many Friends do not observe religious festivals (e.g. Christmas, Lent, or Easter), but instead believe that Christ's birth, crucifixion, and resurrection, should be commemorated every day of the year.

The Hazards of Belief

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