The Hazards of Belief

robindch

For posters familiar with religion causing problems in schools here in Ireland, here's a cautionary tale about about how religion can run amok in schools in the USA.

Up to a little over ten years ago, the area of eastern Ramapo in New York state had a public school board which was elected by, and which adequately represented the interests of, the black and latino immigrants which made up the majority of the areas's residents, as well as the vast majority of the children attending the areas's public schools. The children of the area's hasidic jews attended jewish-only yasheeva schools and the hasids avoided the public schools and the public school board.

Then, the two sides fell out over money, so the hasids took over the public school board and then things turned nasty.

The story is covered by:

This American Life, in audio here.

and New York magazine, in print here.

Hotblack Desiato

Potted version on Wikipedia here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Ramapo_Central_School_District

silverharp

a bit of an outrageous situation for sure. Given the way the US ed system is run the private schools need to be more or less self funding especially here given how extreme they are where its not an option for non orthodox Jews, I'd imagine even a more secular Jewish family would wince at sending their kids to one of these schools.

recedite

Its a lesson in what happens when integration fails, and segregation wins.
The white yankees have moved away, and left the blacks and jews to squabble over what's left of the place.

silverharp

recedite wrote: »

Its a lesson in what happens when integration fails, and segregation wins.
The white yankees have moved away, and left the blacks and jews to squabble over what's left of the place.

it looks that way



Ramapo High school ethnic mix since the 80's and ranking, click tabs

https://www.schooldigger.com/go/NY/schools/2781003779/school.aspx

robindch

recedite wrote: »

Its a lesson in what happens when integration fails, and segregation wins.

Les of that and more of what happens when a religious group puts their own religious interests above the interests of the community they live in.

recedite

robindch wrote: »

Les of that and more of what happens when a religious group puts their own religious interests above the interests of the community they live in.

But each group lives in their own little community. That's the whole point of the story. Its multiculturalism at its worst.
The founding fathers of the USA planned for a melting pot monoculture, but here it has failed.

silverharp

recedite wrote: »

But each group lives in their own little community. That's the whole point of the story. Its multiculturalism at its worst.
The founding fathers of the USA planned for a melting pot monoculture, but here it has failed.

its a big country , groups like the Amish add a bit of quirkiness to the country but at least they are self sufficient and don't ride the system for all its worth. The Orthodox Jews here are taking the Michael.

It seems to be an underreported story?

Atomic Pineapple

recedite wrote: »

But each group lives in their own little community. That's the whole point of the story. Its multiculturalism at its worst.
The founding fathers of the USA planned for a melting pot monoculture, but here it has failed.

This is a valid point, integration has to be at the core of policies that govern multiculturalism in a community, if integration is not the key cornerstone of the community and segregation is allowed to form then its really not a whole community but sub communities vying for their own interests in an area that should only sustain one whole community.

robindch

recedite wrote: »

But each group lives in their own little community. That's the whole point of the story. Its multiculturalism at its worst.

The only people living in "their own little community" are the hasids who - as they are in Israel - breeding like rabbits.

The central problem here is that the state has only weak control over the schools and firstly allowed the yashivas to do their own thing without state oversight while presumably permitting the board to allow them to do that. Having the schools paid for by local taxes exacerbated the problem. The fairest way for the religious to have their own schools is for them to pay for them themselves, once they meet whatever criteria are laid down by the state.

btw, I've no idea what you mean by "multiculturalism" beyond its trivial use as a common and seemingly meaningless right-wing trope.

robindch

Atomic Pineapple wrote: »

This is a valid point, integration has to be at the core of policies that govern multiculturalism in a community, if integration is not the key cornerstone of the community and segregation is allowed to form then its really not a whole community but sub communities vying for their own interests in an area that should only sustain one whole community.

The preamble to the US Constitution suggests as much:

US Constitution wrote:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Just now the Republicans seem to treat the common defence and liberty clauses as much more important than any of the others - the items on establishing justice, tranquility and welfare seem to have been forgotten about with some enthusiasm.

recedite

robindch wrote: »

The only people living in "their own little community" are the hasids

I think you'd find if you actually went there, that the blacks and the hispanics are also living in their own separate communities, and the whites have mostly moved away to live among themselves somewhere else.

It very easy to just blame religion in these instances, but as with the whole Muslim V Islamic argument, there is usually a lot of overlap between religion, culture and ideology and even race. So that it becomes impossible to distinguish between different factors and say one is good, but the other is bad.

I'm guessing that the core of what is going on here is a "gentrification" process to profit from changing property values, something which the hasidic jews in the US are experienced and well capable of manipulating. It has happened many times in NYC and in Miami.

In your earlier links it was mentioned that the small town had experienced an influx of immigrants from Haiti (which lets face it, is probably the most retarded country in the world) Also significant numbers of hispanic immigrants, which are not typically the most wealthy of people. All these people would initially have received good schooling and social services based on the original white "yankees" paying high property taxes to fund the public system in the town.

Reading between the lines, and from the disclosed ethnic make up of the public school, which is falling way down in the educational performance tables, it is obvious that the yankees gradually moved away and their properties were bought up for bargain prices by the jews. The next step is for the jews to starve all public spending in the town, so that public schools and social services fall apart.
The ethnic groups most dependent on these then gradually move out, allowing the jews to sell back the property to incoming yankees at a large profit. Then the jews can take their profits and move off to another place to start again.
And before you say that's all a conspiracy theory read this.

silverharp

Muslim children who missed school photo for Eid awarded €500 compensation


I don't agree with the decision, if you voluntarily absent your kids from the class, why is it the schools problem? it seems like you could shoehorn all kinds of thins into that, exam times etc.?


http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2017/07/muslim-children-who-missed-school-photo-for-eid-awarded-e500-compensation/

A school in The Hague has been ordered to pay €500 compensation to two Muslim children who missed the annual school photograph because it clashed with the end of Ramadan.

The Maria Montessorischool hired the photographer without realising the date coincided with Eid al-Adha, and was unable to rearrange the booking by the time the mistake came to light.

The district court in The Hague decided on Monday that the school had indirectly discriminated against the two children, breaching their legal right to equal treatment.


The court decided there was no direct discrimination on grounds of religion because the school later arranged for the photographer to return and take the children’s pictures separately. However, the school had failed to offer alternatives when it became aware of the error.

Lawyer Laura Zuydgeest told Omroep West the parents were satisfied with the outcome of the case. ‘They are disappointed that it had to go so far, but the school did not want to apologise or accept that it had acted wrongly and only wanted to discuss the matter if my clients observed the strictest secrecy,’ she said. ‘That was unacceptable for them.’

robindch

Flat Earthery is a thing again, mostly it seems, thanks to youtube and social media generally.

http://www.denverpost.com/2017/07/07/colorado-earth-flat-gravity-hoax/

Elsewhere, NetFlix are promoting a fake-news documentary named "What the Health" which has produced at least one useful response from a person with actual medical qualifications.

https://www.facebook.com/ZDoggMD/videos/10155347230432095/

Hotblack Desiato

I don't suppose any of these dopes have ever watched satellite TV? or seen the ISS do any of its regular 92.65-minute orbits?

CabanSail

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I don't suppose any of these dopes have ever watched satellite TV? or seen the ISS do any of its regular 92.65-minute orbits?

Bob Knodel is a professional electrical engineer of 35 years with background in RF, terrestrial microwave, satellite ground station, and computer systems. He is also an FCC licensed broadcast engineer, an Amateur Extra class HAM radio operator, and a commercial/instrument/MEL licensed pilot.

Excerpt from FLAT EARTH INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE which is coming up in November this year.

I am very dubious if this is anything but a huge pisstake.

robindch

Turkey's new school curriculum drops evolution and adds jihad.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/turkey-school-curriculum-teach-jihad-concept-drop-evolution-science-muslim-islam-a7848176.html

Samaris

Every time I see that Turkey has taken another step along the road to fundamentalism, I wonder again about the Turkish acquaintance I had in university in England whose family advised her some six years ago now that it may be best not to come home. She was upset about it at the time and undecided. I never did find out did she return to Turkey or not.

Hope she's okay, but I guess I'll never know.

Blast Erdogan and his notions.

robindch

Samaris wrote: »

Blast Erdogan and his notions.

Notions? I'd have gone with 'paranoia', 'narcissism' and 'lack of a clearly-defined, safe succession model, plus a safe successor to go with it'.

Erdogan has learned a lot from the small maniac in the Kremlin.

Samaris

robindch wrote: »

Notions? I'd have gone with 'paranoia', 'narcissism' and 'lack of a clearly-defined, safe succession model, plus a safe successor to go with it'.

Erdogan has learned a lot from the small maniac in the Kremlin.

Forgive my British sense of understatement there*

Also possibly "sociopathy". He's not as bad as Duterte by a long shot, but something about how the pair act remind me continuously of each other. I can't give you examples as it's more just something that's niggled vaguely at me for months when either name comes up. They both give me the "hell nos" in terms of either being trustable with power.

On a line of "hell no" to "bad choice" it'd be Kim/Duterte-Mugabe-Erdogan-Putin-Trump-May.


*Also I was controlling my potty mouth!

recedite

These people are popular in their own countries. It's a mistake to try to paint them as villains when all they are doing is representing their own people. Unless you mean to say that the people of those countries are villainous?
I suspect you won't say that, because it is easier and much more politically correct to insinuate that the leader is a dictator, and only he is the villain.

In Erdogan's case he is making education more islamic because that is what most of the people want. When the army tried to depose Erdogan, a large number of ordinary people came out onto the streets to support their leader, and to stop the army.

Things worked out differently in Egypt when something analogous was happening. The Muslim Brotherhood President Morsi was successfully deposed by the army, and he (along with poor Ibrahim Halawa from Clonskeagh mosque) has been in jail ever since.

That's just the way the cookie crumbles; you never know which way its going to go, until its all over.

CptMackey

I suspect that the coup was a false flag operation designed to seal his power and get rid of his enemy's. Why else fire teachers.

As for halwa in Egypt, I have very little sympathy for him. Shouldn't have went to protest in Egypt for the Muslim brother hood. Why the left her champion his cause is beyond me

recedite

CptMackey wrote: »

I suspect that the coup was a false flag operation designed to seal his power and get rid of his enemy's. Why else fire teachers.

Hard to know, but I think he was genuinely caught by surprise, and I think he was very close to being toppled for a few hours.

The thing about these kind of coups is that there are always a lot of generals sitting on the fence. If it looks to be succeeding, they join in and earn themselves a good spot in the new administration. If it looks to be failing, then joining in is an extremely dangerous mistake.

Sacking certain teachers makes sense in the aftermath of a coup (or an attempted coup) because there is a tradition of teaching people the concept of a great military leader who imposed a secular republic (Ataturk). He being Turkey's main national hero. Erdogan will want to tone down this kind of idea a bit now. Whereas if the coup had succeeded, the glorification of Ataturk would be rekindled, but the more islamist minded teachers would be out on their ear instead.

I've not that much sympathy for Halawa junior either. Daddy is of course a big shot in the european Muslim Brotherhood, and a lot of junior's problems stem from that. Also I think the Irish state bears some responsibility, in the sense that it funds the muslim school in Clonskeagh that junior attended, and daddy is in charge of.
And all because we want to retain state funded catholic schools, which means we must also pay for these kind. Otherwise we'll be racists, as they say.
Maybe we need our own Irish Ataturk to come in and just secularise everything.
But then, if he was around now, he'd be lumped in with Putin and Duterte as "a dictator". You can't win :pac:

robindch

recedite wrote: »

These people are popular in their own countries. It's a mistake to try to paint them as villains when all they are doing is representing their own people.

They're not "representing their people" in any reasonable meaning of the term.

What they are doing is presenting the outside world as a threat, presenting themselves as the solution so that they can gain political power at home. It's a tried and tested technique which leads directly to nationalism, ingroup/outgroup hatred and hypocritical, angry societies typically lead by a hypocritical, angry leaders.

Essentially, it's no different to what the religious do - a blessed us and a damned them, with us lead by a hallowed, infallible leader who declares a threat which nobody before recognises, and who embodies the only way to combat it.

In the cases of Kim, Duterte, Mugabe, Erdogan and especially Putin (but not yet Trump or May), their states are significantly corrupt, crime is widespread, divisions are wide and entrenched, the rule of law is weak and the populations are fed diets of nationalistic propaganda which demeans everybody and which is then used to justify whatever repression they wish to carry out in order to maintain power.

Samaris

^


I can absolutely call these people corrupt (Trump certainly appears corrupt, but not as dangerous as the other four,* May is more incompetent and distant) without it inferring anything on their people. Sure, I think the people that voted for some of these people really should have paid more attention to what they were spouting and analysed what that might mean about their character in power, but that doesn't make them corrupt.

While a leader represents their country, they are not necessarily representative of all its people in their personality traits or general lunacy. There will be plenty of people who dislike or hate all of them in their own countries, just as there will be people that love and support them. Except perhaps May, she seems fairly universally unpopular.

*Probably because the rule of law and the norm of citizens rights are still strong in the UK and US as much as Trump's own sense of decency (snort).

smacl

Samaris wrote: »

Every time I see that Turkey has taken another step along the road to fundamentalism, I wonder again about the Turkish acquaintance I had in university in England whose family advised her some six years ago now that it may be best not to come home. She was upset about it at the time and undecided. I never did find out did she return to Turkey or not.

Don't know if you've seen Persepolis, seems like a rather similar progression.

recedite

robindch wrote: »

In the cases of Kim, Duterte, Mugabe, Erdogan and especially Putin (but not yet Trump or May), their states are significantly corrupt, crime is widespread, divisions are wide and entrenched, the rule of law is weak and the populations are fed diets of nationalistic propaganda which demeans everybody and which is then used to justify whatever repression they wish to carry out in order to maintain power.

I'm not seeing that all the above leaders have anything much in common, except that none can be called "liberal". But on the other points we'll have to "agree to differ"

In the case of Duterte, I think the usual criticisms against him are pretty much the opposite to what you have listed. Heavy-handed application of the law, little compassion for drug dealers and other criminals, harsh prison regimes, cracking down on corruption, no tolerance for islamic rebels trying to set up separate areas ruled by sharia law.
And also probable extra-judicial police killings, which would obviously be outside the law.

At the end of the day, a very liberal govt. can only succeed when the society being governed is already comprised of very liberal people. The Scandinavian societies from the 1960's up until recently are the classic example. Its all changing there now though.

So, the liberal govt. will gradually allow the society to change to a less liberal one (through liberal immigration and crime policies). As the less liberal immigrant and the criminal populations build up, so the society changes. Then when the election comes round, hey presto the Trumps and the Mays of this world suddenly get most of the votes. Much to the surprise and chagrin of very liberal people like your good self

And yet, that is exactly how the great cycle of liberalism-authoritarianism works. Its a constant oscillation. We just happen to be in the phase of maximum liberality here in Ireland, just at the moment.

Hotblack Desiato

This guy sounds a few sandwiches short of a picnic

Dublin bakery's refusal of anti-gay marriage cake 'not discrimination'

A Co Dublin bakery did not discriminate against a man when refusing to bake a €700 cake with an anti-gay marriage message, the Workplace Relations Commission (WRC) has ruled .

In May of last year, the man placed a cake order with the bakery with the words: "BY THE GRACE OF THE GOOD LORD, I (name redacted), that in my honest opinion – 'GAY MARRIAGE' IS A PERVERSION OF EQUALITY and the 34th Amendment to the Irish Constitution should be REPEALED."

The man told the WRC hearing he was taking the action against the bakery under the Equal Status Act in response to a Belfast court case which had found that Ashers bakery had discriminated against a gay man when refusing to take an order a "Bert and Ernie" cake with a pro-gay-marriage message.

The man said he placed the order both to test and "balance out" the Ashers case.

"Why should the law favour people of a gay orientation and not deal with me the same way?" he asked the hearing, adding: "What's good for the goose is good for the gander".

The managing director said the cake would have taken eight hours to complete. She said other orders were turned away at that time as their order book for bespoke cakes was full.

The bakery had up to 140 cakes in the pipeline and at 80 cakes they decide what can and what cannot be done.

Asked by adjudication officer Ian Barrett if the cake’s wording was the real issue, the managing director said the bakery did not get past the ability to see if the order was viable and it was not.

In his ruling, Mr Barrett said that the complainant "must prove that he has been treated less favourably than another person because of his religious beliefs".

He said prima facie evidence was not heard to prove the bakery refused the order on religious grounds and, accordingly, the complaint failed.

Peregrinus

robindch wrote: »

In the cases of Kim, Duterte, Mugabe, Erdogan and especially Putin (but not yet Trump or May), their states are significantly corrupt, crime is widespread, divisions are wide and entrenched, the rule of law is weak and the populations are fed diets of nationalistic propaganda which demeans everybody and which is then used to justify whatever repression they wish to carry out in order to maintain power.

recedite wrote: »

In the case of Duterte, I think the usual criticisms against him are pretty much the opposite to what you have listed. Heavy-handed application of the law, little compassion for drug dealers and other criminals, harsh prison regimes, cracking down on corruption, no tolerance for islamic rebels trying to set up separate areas ruled by sharia law.
And also probable extra-judicial police killings, which would obviously be outside the law.

Those criticisms are not the opposite of what robindch listed; they are pretty much the same.

recedite

...significantly corrupt, crime is widespread, divisions are wide and entrenched, the rule of law is weak

Crime, corruption and separatist movements have all been decreasing under Duterte.