Dublin coach - Dublin city centre - Belfast non stop

Just seen their timetable - pretty aggressive against Aircoach to say the least. Looks like because of the international nature of this route we could have a UK style bus war on our hands, which since cross-border routes are not subject to licensing from the NTA, would not be able to happen on a fully ROI route.

From the Belfast end it looks like we're going to have two express services within 5 minutes of each other and then no express service for 55 minutes and from Dublin we're going to have two services leaving at the same time then none for an hour then another two.

Their journey times look hard to achieve as well, there is no way in my view they can do Belfast to Dublin in 1hr 50 mins at anything other than the most off-peak journeys. It's almost impossible to do that in a car.

spurious wrote: »

I wish some of their drivers would learn to behave themselves.

I can see there being a massive face-off at Glengall Street now. You will have Aircoach leaving at xx:30 the hour and Dublin Coach at :35 past the hour which is crazy.

There is only room for one bus at the stop they are sharing and you can only imagine what fun and games could happen there with them both vying for a single bay.

It could very easily get heated there.

mickmmc wrote: »

Have they really thought their decision through?

Dublin Coach realistically have to invest very little money in the actual promotion / start-up of the service aside from vehicle costs because for one end of the route, they are essentially going to be operating from the same stop, at pretty much the same time as Aircoach are and there is only really room for one bus at that stop, which is going to cause overcrowding, both passenger wise and vehicle wise since both companies are operating tri-axles and there is the potential for there to be problems with access and coaches blocking each other.

This kind of situation would not be allowed if the route was within Ireland, however because the service is based on European Union, de-regulated rules because it is an international route essentially it is outside the jurisdiction of either the authorities in Northern Ireland, or Republic of Ireland pretty much, so there is little that they can do about it.

mickmmc wrote: »

Dublin Coach 04 Setras are pretty rough looking. Their mechanics must be busy keeping those buses on the road. They should renew their existing fleet rather than launch a new service.

They have a curious fleet. A large number of 13 year old coaches that have been worked hard their entire life, with a smaller number of new coaches in the last few years and very very little inbetween.

All of those 2004 Setra's are ex Aircoach, some of them even operated the Belfast route a few years ago, Aircoach moved them on because they were very tired, I'd say they must have a few million kilometers on the clock by now. They also have quite a few 2004 Neoplan deckers which have seen better days after being used on Oxford to London services for many years.

However to be fair they do have had a couple of intakes of Tourismo's in the last couple of years, some of which started their life or still are on tours only, I presume because of the fact if you buy or lease a coach and keep it on tour work for 6-12 months the state refunds your VAT, so might be a handy way to reduce their tax bill, which is smart if true.

From what I heard Tourismo's will operate on the Belfast route.

Terrontress wrote: »

I remember those Setras being introduced by Aircoach. I was working in Donnybrook and thought they were the most handsome coach I'd ever seen.

Setra in my view is top of the class when it comes to coaches in Europe, sadly they are no longer produced in UK/Ireland format for left hand side driving, instead Mercedes are just offering the Tourismo, which to be fair, in it's latest version does share some heritage and common elements of Setras, although Setra is still considered as higher end than a Tourismo.

The trouble with those ex Aircoach vehicles is that Aircoach pretty much has nearly always run 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 364 days a year and they were worked very hard for many many years and have a few million km on the clock. They're good vehicles however, just very worn and well used, which I presume is why Aircoach moved them on for younger, more reliable, more fuel efficient vehicles.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Doesn't the Translink X2 do the journey in that time?

The Translink X2 is only twice a day at the moment. Aircoach do Dublin City - Dublin Airport to Belfast non stop and allow in 1hr 50 mins from Airport - Belfast 22 times a day, which is achievable since it's mostly motorway the whole route aside from the last km or so in Belfast and they don't need to deal with the rush hour Dublin traffic.

I have severe doubts that Dublin Coach can do city to city in 1hr 50 mins. According to Google maps it takes 1hr 53 mins if you left now (off-peak). At peak it would add 5-10 minutes on and that's before you take into account Google's timings are based on cars which have a higher speed limit than buses.

J.pilkington wrote: »

@ devnull why are you even discussing setras, you don't even know what coaches they will use on this service, someone else posted that they are getting 171 coaches and they have other modern coaches but you have ignored this and continued to focus and push on the fact that their fleet contains a certain model almost trying to tell her potential customers that they will travel in ancient coaches with millions of kilometres.

I have done nothing of the sort, I was not the person who brought up the 2004 Setra coaches that were previously with Aircoach, someone else brought that point up and I replied to them, that tends to be what happens on discussion forums, people make points and other people discuss them.

But because once again you are putting words in my mouth and you wish to discuss the fleet age and claim that I am trying to pursue an agenda which I am not, as per normal I'm happy to back up any claims that I have made in relation to a company with pure facts using reputable sources.

I introduce you to: https://www.rtol.ie/rtol-online/search/licence.

Dublin Coach have two operating companies operating under license number 3264 and 210059392, if you fill in the search form you will be able to find full details on every single vehicle that is on their operators license and is licenses as a passenger carrying vehicle by the Department of Transport, Tourism and sport.

The breakdown is (ignoring the very old heritage vehicles)
2003 - 21 vehicles
2004 - 31 vehicles
2005 - 3 vehicles
2007 - 3 vehicles
2008 - 5 vehicles
2009 - 2 vehicles
2010 - 4 vehicles
2012 - 4 vehicles
2014 - 11 vehicles
2016 - 6 vehicles
2017 - 5 vehicles

Average fleet age = 9.65 years.

To break it down into the groups I broke it into in my post:
52 vehicles over 13 years old
19 vehicles between 5-12 years.
22 vehicles 3 years or younger.

I think you'll find I've fully backed up my statement on vehicle age with full hard facts

You seem to be happy to judge and write off a new service before it even starts. Will you give them a chance, can only be good for Joe public to have more choice

Really is it more choice though? I don't call operating a bus once an hour at exactly the same time as the competition operate once an hour giving passengers more choice. If they were serious about giving more choice they would want to support the long-term availability and spread of services for public transport users, it's a quick way to drum up customers from the competition, that's why they picked the time, it's obvious.

If Aircoach operates a service from Belfast at xx:30 past the hour every hour and Dublin City at xx:30 past the hour, why did Dublin Coach pick an almost identical time from Belfast and also the same time from Dublin? The practice of running buses just in front or just behind of competitors and then a large gap and then the same pattern, is a very well known tactic that has happened numerous times in the UK and it rarely ends well.

If they viewed choice as being a key reason for starting the service why not run at xx:00, xx:15, xx:45 past the hour. That would be really great for customers, it would provide extra choice and if you just missed one bus you would have another one, this would improve choice and a good spread of departures meaning an increased quality and frequency for the end users.

Unfortunately they have decided not do do that. It's worth noting that the NTA in their own licensing guidelines believe that such a timetable as Dublin Coach are putting into practice is not something they would normally approve on services they have regulatory power on.

J.pilkington wrote: »

Aircoach moved them on for younger, more reliable, more fuel efficient vehicles"

It's common knowledge that vehicles that are 13-14 years old tend in most cases to be less reliable and less fuel efficient than ones which have been produced in recent years.

and then multiple posts focusing on the age and miles of the setras essentially telling any potential customers that this is what they will travel on.

I didn't even mention the Setra's, someone else did and and I simply replied to their post, I'm not sure what your problem is, I simply replied to a post on a discussion forum in an on-topic way. The fact is that Dublin Coach has a large number of vehicles from 2003-2004, that is just the way it is in reality.

I never stated that 2004 Setra vehicles would be used on a regular basis on the Belfast route, please can you point out where I stated this, or otherwise please do not misquote me or put words into my mouth which I have not said.

Btw, it's a non stop service from city to city which doesn't stop at the airport. This is a massive plus for customers, again zero acknowledgment of this other than to question their journey times.

I don't think it's wrong to question the fact that an operation has journey times which seems impossible to deliver, especially when I provide back-up that Google maps casts doubt that it seems impossible to do that in a car off-peak, let alone during peak time on a bus which has a lower speed limit.

Again you seem to have written this service off before a wheel moves and you are so determined to point our all the negatives of one operator and the pros of another. You counter any positive post from other users. It's all one sided

I have no problem with Dublin Coach starting a Dublin to Belfast direct service, in-fact I would normally be very welcoming of such a service. It's just the way they have gone about it that I have a problem with, the timetable does not give the best spread of services for the public and such timetable would not be permitted if the route was within this country.

I already said from what I heard Tourismo's will operate on the Belfast route, maybe you should go back a few pages and read my post about it. I notice you continually make arguments and when I prove you wrong you fail to contest any of my points or responses to your original argument and move on to something else that has no basis on what I have posted and continue to misquote me.

Looks like everyone was waiting for each other to blink first as tonight it seems every operator on the route has decided to release their plans right at the last minute.

Bus Eireann have reduced their Dublin to Belfast service Via Newry, Banbridge and Sprucefield to £8/€10 single and £16/€20 return with effect from Thursday. Not clear if they have done the same with cash fares.

Aircoach have gone to a flat fare of £8/€10 single and £16/€20 return for both cash fares and online fares according to their website and according to a post on Facebook are in the process of fitting charging points to their coaches.

Dublin Coach have revealed that their city center stop is actually going to be Custom House Quay rather than Bachelors walk and that next week they are going to offer passengers journeys for free from Belfast.

n97 mini wrote: »

Will their buses have toilets onboard? No other operator does, making the train mandatory after you've been on a pub crawl!

According to their Facebook, Dublin Coach are going to have toilets on-board and seeing they will be using at least some of the services as 2017 Tourismos, I imagine that it will be quite a good toilet at that since it's in a Mercedes Coach and from what I have seen the seating is full leather and reclining as well.

They don't offer USB charging points though which I was a bit surprised at for a modern coach and it's not clear if all services will have 2017 Tourismo's on because the front page of their website features a Setra similar to the ex 2004 Aircoach ones discussed in this thread with branding for the Belfast to Dublin route!

Maybe they do, but giving free tickets away at stops they share with other operators, cutting prices to levels which are not sustainable long term and running directly in line with the only direct competitor is very reminiscent of this kind of carry on.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8211128.stm

So-called predatory tactics can include upping the frequency of buses to "crowd out" rivals or timing buses to run just in front and sometimes also just behind a rival's buses. It also said bus groups could hit competition by cutting fares significantly or running buses for free.

The idea is if you share the same bus stop and virtually the same time you can then entice the passengers to take you instead of the competition. This means you have to spent little money on marketing the service and creating one in your own right as you will have your only direct competitors passengers right on your doorstep. This is something that the NTA for instance would not allow if it was under their rules.

It's basically an operator flexing their muscles and saying that because of the international nature of the route, there is not much authorities in either country can do about it, having a spread and stagger of the times would be much better from a customer point of view, however that would require more marketing and less initial revenue for Dublin Coach and they decided that what is best for the market is secondary to what is best for them.

Essentially it is what is known as piggy backing on someone elses investment, someone else pays to start up a service, inccuring start-up costs and marketing to build the demand and when the service has developed and is working well and profitable, rivals then come and want a piece of the action by coming in directly at the same times and places to take some of the passenger numbers.

That is why you have a price war right now and Dublin Coach giving free tickets away to passengers and reducing fares to prices which are not sustainable long term. A company who had to build a service from scratch like Aircoach did would not be able to go for such pricing, but Dublin Coach know they can go for such pricing on the basis they don't really need to do that much marketing at least at the Belfast end.

I would be very surprised if there are not Dublin Coach staff at the stop who are trying to encourage people to use them and give free tickets etc or at least heavily discount tickets, the current prices of €10 return that Dublin Coach are charging are not sustainable long term and cannot be far off their costs.

What Dublin Coach would say is that they are express city to city rather than going via the airport, which will make them quicker than Aircoach. Not by the distance they claim they are, but still they should be quicker and they are using new coaches, I presume this is what they would tell people at the stop.

What I don't agree with is essentially if this happens on all cross border routes, who is going to bother spending weeks/months/years into a new innovative route and spending a lot of money in building it from scratch and no passengers if when it does become profitable, someone else can simply come in and cream off the hard work that the original operator did in getting the service to be viable with very little time and effort of their own?

No business will bother anymore and the public will be all the worse off for it.

J.pilkington wrote: »

Also if a product / service is successful of course there will be new entrants. Every other city to city route in the country has multi operators competing against each other and I don't hear half the outcry..

There is one major difference.

Those services are regulated by the NTA and the NTA requires similar services to go from different stops and be time split by thirty minutes to stop this behaviour

J.pilkington wrote: »

what were the launch / promotional / discount fares (call them what you want) charged by aircoach / citylink / go bus etc when they launched their service?

None of them on launch day undercut the competitions cash fares by almost 70% on opening day.

Besides you compare apples and oranges the timetable and fares are part of the same tactic. Such. Tactic is not possible on non cross border routes.

J.pilkington wrote: »

So you are saying other firms have not ran limited time promotional offers?

Aircoach have an effective monopoly on this route(newry disqualified BE), what do companies do that have no competition, yes they have high fares. Not to mention that aircoach will have higher running costs than DB

Also can you please qualify your statements as you opinion / assumption / guesses as you can not possibly know what anyone's" tactics" are.

At the end of the day it's a cheaper and quicker service to the competitors (aircoach, bus eireann and Irish rail) so best of luck to them, I'll refrain from judging / writing off / baseless accusations until some wheels have moved.

On one hand you claim Monopoly and other you talk about competition which one is it?

There is no problem with the service. The nature of the timetable is not designed to give passengers more choice. Why do you think they picked the time and stop they did?

My issue is the combination of everything they are doing. Historical proof shows whenever such tactics are used passengers lose outy

Why not run on the hour. Don't come back to me and say because bus eireann do because by your own admission they do not count

J.pilkington wrote: »

I think you missed my earlier comment re times

If you read the earlier post I made referencing the UK market investigation you will see that operators have done both before and after and such behaviour was mentioned not just before.