Dublin coach - Dublin city centre - Belfast non stop

J.pilkington

Is €10 that unsustainable? Cork route when it started out was around this price and they didn't have the cheap diesel / diesel rebate and it was a much longer route. Same as the Galway Dublin route, this was €10 for the first 5 years or so. DC automatically have lower running costs than aircoach as they are not stopping at the airport which in itself is expensive (DAA charges for the bus stop are v.large and the extra time it takes). Gobus have a reward scheme which is effectively 10% off their prices.

The free tickets / promotions is standard marketing of any new product, from a new shop to a new airline route. DC would be fools if they didn't take advantage of this avenue. It gets people talking and free advertising.

Also if a product / service is successful of course there will be new entrants. Every other city to city route in the country has multi operators competing against each other and I don't hear half the outcry. Remember citilink even operated their non stop service with no licence for a very long time, scheduling a similar service is hardly a patch on this.

devnull

They are not charging ten euro single anymore they are charging ten euro return which is not sustainable at all and coupled with their timetable and free tickets it is clear what their intention is and what type of tactics they are employing.

devnull

J.pilkington wrote: »

Also if a product / service is successful of course there will be new entrants. Every other city to city route in the country has multi operators competing against each other and I don't hear half the outcry..

There is one major difference.

Those services are regulated by the NTA and the NTA requires similar services to go from different stops and be time split by thirty minutes to stop this behaviour

J.pilkington

devnull wrote: »

They are not charging ten euro single anymore they are charging ten euro return which is not sustainable at all and coupled with their timetable and free tickets it is clear what their intention is and what type of tactics they are employing.

Missed the €10 return. In their defence it very clearly states "introductory offer" so obvious that this won't be a long term thing. They are hardly planning on setting up a route with the aim of losing money.

As I said they are trying to establish themselves, it's a marketing campaign that all companies undertake. Absolutely nothing strange about it. Ryanair do it, Tesco do it, newspapers do it, utility companies do it.

J.pilkington

devnull wrote: »

There is one major difference.

Those services are regulated by the NTA and the NTA requires similar services to go from different stops and be time split by thirty minutes to stop this behaviour

If it's not illegal what's the problem? It's a similar argument to tax evasion / avoidance. One is illegal one isn't.

I'm sure all the bus Éireann staff had a similar outcry when they were threatened by aircoach

devnull

J.pilkington wrote: »

I'm sure all the bus Éireann staff had a similar outcry when they were threatened by aircoach

Aircoach never ran such heavily discounted services.. Free buses or buses from the same stop or directly behind or in front of any service. Huge difference.

Also the NTA does not allow such timetables as Dublin coach because they believe it is not in interest of the public long term and all examples of similar behaviour in the UK have proven the public never win long term.

end of the road

J.pilkington wrote: »

Every other city to city route in the country has multi operators competing against each other and I don't hear half the outcry.

because it's regulated. operators can't use what can be considered to be predatory practices and rightly so.

J.pilkington wrote: »

Remember citilink even operated their non stop service with no licence for a very long time, scheduling a similar service is hardly a patch on this.

yes it is . this is huge and hopefully aircoach will dig into their pockets and end the nonsense. citilink should have been dealt with for their breach rather then being rewarded.

J.pilkington wrote: »

Missed the €10 return. In their defence it very clearly states "introductory offer" so obvious that this won't be a long term thing. They are hardly planning on setting up a route with the aim of losing money.

As I said they are trying to establish themselves, it's a marketing campaign that all companies undertake. Absolutely nothing strange about it. Ryanair do it, Tesco do it, newspapers do it, utility companies do it.

irrelevant i'm afraid. practices that can be considered to be predatory in the bus market have to be faught. hopefully the other operators on the route will up their game to send a message.

J.pilkington wrote: »

If it's not illegal what's the problem? It's a similar argument to tax evasion / avoidance. One is illegal one isn't.

I'm sure all the bus Éireann staff had a similar outcry when they were threatened by aircoach

the problem is huge. it disbenefits the passengers long term if an operator was forced to pull out or up prices.

J.pilkington

devnull wrote: »

Aircoach never ran below cost pricing.. Free buses or buses from the same stop or directly behind or in front of any service. Huge difference.

Also the NTA does not allow such timetables as Dublin coach because they believe it is not in interest of the public long term and all examples of similar behaviour in the UK have proven the public never win long term.

How can you possibly know what is loss making and what is not?

what were the launch / promotional / discount fares (call them what you want) charged by aircoach / citylink / go bus etc when they launched their service? How much does it cost Irish rail to run a train to cork, does a promotional fare cover the costs?

How much does aircoach pay the DAA?

devnull

J.pilkington wrote: »

what were the launch / promotional / discount fares (call them what you want) charged by aircoach / citylink / go bus etc when they launched their service?

None of them on launch day undercut the competitions cash fares by almost 70% on opening day.

Besides you compare apples and oranges the timetable and fares are part of the same tactic. Such. Tactic is not possible on non cross border routes.

J.pilkington

devnull wrote: »

None of them on launch day undercut the competitions cash fares by almost 70% on opening day.

Besides you compare apples and oranges the timetable and fares are part of the same tactic. Such. Tactic is not possible on non cross border routes.

So you are saying other firms have not ran limited time promotional offers?

Aircoach have an effective monopoly on this route(newry disqualified BE), what do companies do that have no competition, yes they have high fares. Not to mention that aircoach will have higher running costs than DB

Also can you please qualify your statements as you opinion / assumption / guesses as you can not possibly know what anyone's" tactics" are.

At the end of the day it's a cheaper and quicker service to the competitors (aircoach, bus eireann and Irish rail) so best of luck to them, I'll refrain from judging / writing off / baseless accusations until some wheels have moved.

devnull

J.pilkington wrote: »

So you are saying other firms have not ran limited time promotional offers?

Aircoach have an effective monopoly on this route(newry disqualified BE), what do companies do that have no competition, yes they have high fares. Not to mention that aircoach will have higher running costs than DB

Also can you please qualify your statements as you opinion / assumption / guesses as you can not possibly know what anyone's" tactics" are.

At the end of the day it's a cheaper and quicker service to the competitors (aircoach, bus eireann and Irish rail) so best of luck to them, I'll refrain from judging / writing off / baseless accusations until some wheels have moved.

On one hand you claim Monopoly and other you talk about competition which one is it?

There is no problem with the service. The nature of the timetable is not designed to give passengers more choice. Why do you think they picked the time and stop they did?

My issue is the combination of everything they are doing. Historical proof shows whenever such tactics are used passengers lose outy

Why not run on the hour. Don't come back to me and say because bus eireann do because by your own admission they do not count

J.pilkington

devnull wrote: »

On one hand you claim Monopoly and other you talk about competition which one is it?

There is no problem with the service. The nature of the timetable is not designed to give passengers more choice. Why do you think they picked the time and stop they did?

My issue is the combination of everything they are doing. Historical proof shows whenever such tactics are used passengers lose outy

If you want to go Dublin to Belfast in a quick time then aircoach currently have a monopoly on this and customers are willing to pay to avoid newry which adds substantial time(as you have previously stated a massive massive amount of times when promoting aircoach over BE to potential customers on this forum). It doesn't mean that BE and Irish rail can't be competitors in other ways.

You earlier accused me of not addressing the pinpoints I raised, you are doing the exact same

Like yourself I have no idea why the reason for the departure times, could be thousands of reasons. As you say maybe it's bus Éireann?

If it's purely to steal customers (even though on paper DCs offer a better service than aircoach)
Surely they would have chosen a time 5 mins before? They get to grab the best bus parking spot and people will want the earliest departure.

Man I've never seen someone so passionate about a bus company(I am only putting across DCs defence to an ambush and all my posts are counter arguments)

At the end of the day DCs service is going to be a cheaper and quicker service to the competitors (aircoach, bus eireann and Irish rail) so best of luck to them, I'll refrain from judging / writing off / baseless accusations until some wheels have moved.

end of the road

J.pilkington wrote: »

If you want to go Dublin to Belfast in a quick time then aircoach currently have a monopoly on this and customers are willing to pay to avoid newry which adds substantial time(as you have previously stated a massive massive amount of times when promoting aircoach over BE to potential customers on this forum). It doesn't mean that BE and Irish rail can't be competitors in other ways.

You earlier accused me of not addressing the pinpoints I raised, you are doing the exact same

Like yourself I have no idea why the reason for the departure times, could be thousands of reasons. As you say maybe it's bus Éireann?

If it's purely to steal customers (even though on paper DCs offer a better service than aircoach)
Surely they would have chosen a time 5 mins before? They get to grab the best bus parking spot and people will want the earliest departure.

Man I've never seen someone so passionate about a bus company(I am only putting across DCs defence to an ambush and all my posts are counter arguments)

At the end of the day DCs service is going to be a cheaper and quicker service to the competitors (aircoach, bus eireann and Irish rail) so best of luck to them, I'll refrain from judging / writing off / baseless accusations until some wheels have moved.

there is no judging/writing off. just a statement that the operator is involved in what can be considered predatory tactics, which never ends well long term for the customer (as has been proven) . i share devnull's concerns and fully agree with him.

devnull

Of course. Because history shows that operators who operate services from same stops at cut down prices or for free just happen to do it as a coincidence and for no other reason.

Simple fact is that I am not defending anyone merely calling an operator out for a practice that the national transport authority of this country believes is not in the customer interest which is why they do not allow it on national routes.

Just to be clear are you calling for full deregulation? Since this is what you seem to be asking for and have no problem with. A free for all has shown in the UK that it does not work long term and these kind of practices have been rampant there and often don't end well for anyone.

J.pilkington

devnull wrote: »

Of course. Because history shows that operators who operate services from same stops at cut down prices or for free just happen to do it as a coincidence and for no other reason.

Simple fact is that I am not defending anyone merely calling an operator out for a practice that the national transport authority of this country believes is not in the customer interest which is why they do not allow it on national routes.

Just to be clear are you calling for full deregulation? Since this is what you seem to be asking for and have no problem with. A free for all has shown in the UK that it does not work long term and these kind of practices have been rampant there and often don't end well for anyone.

So you are saying other firms have not ran limited time promotional offers? Please address this question

end of the road

J.pilkington wrote: »

So you are saying other firms have not ran limited time promotional offers? Please address this question

it's not relevant as what is happening is rather obvious.

J.pilkington

I think you missed my earlier comment re times

J.pilkington wrote: »

Like yourself I have no idea why the reason for the departure times, could be thousands of reasons. As you say maybe it's bus Éireann?

If it's purely to steal customers (even though on paper DCs offer a better service than aircoach)
Surely they would have chosen a time 5 mins before? They get to grab the best bus parking spot and people will want the earliest departure.

devnull

J.pilkington wrote: »

So you are saying other firms have not ran limited time promotional offers? Please address this question

No other operator has discounted fares heavily directly entering a market and running at virtually the same time from the same stop. That is my biggest issue.

The reason is transport professionals decided that such practice of timetabling is against the interests of the public. This is f fact and is stated by the NTA in their own rules and guidelines.

devnull

J.pilkington wrote: »

I think you missed my earlier comment re times

If you read the earlier post I made referencing the UK market investigation you will see that operators have done both before and after and such behaviour was mentioned not just before.

J.pilkington

devnull wrote: »

If you read the earlier post I made referencing the UK market investigation you will see that operators have done both before and after and such behaviour was mentioned not just before.

Can you back up your claim of a predatory motive. Neither of us know the reason for the selected times, I have put forward possible reasons but I am guessing like you.

Why are my possible reasons for selecting the particular times wrong and yours right?

mickmmc

The last time I travelled on Aircoach to Belfast their Jonckheere coaches were a bit tired (nearly 9 years old). Dublin Coach are taking advantage of that by putting 171 Coaches on their new service.

Aircoach will need to purchase new coaches or put the 162 and 171 Panthers on the Belfast service to compete with their competitors.

Dublin Coach will have to invest over €15m to replace the 52 coaches over 13 years old (mentioned above) over the next few years. My point is that they should be investing in new coaches for existing services rather than for a new service.

J.pilkington

devnull wrote: »

No other operator has discounted fares heavily directly entering a market and running at virtually the same time from the same stop. That is my biggest issue.

The reason is transport professionals decided that such practice of timetabling is against the interests of the public. This is f fact and is stated by the NTA in their own rules and guidelines.

That is not specifically what you complained about earlier. You keep moving the goal posts when I counter your accusations and you ignore my points and move onto another accusation now you are combing everything, what's next the colour green on a bus?

At the end of the day DCs service is going to be a cheaper and quicker service to the competitors (aircoach, bus eireann and Irish rail) so best of luck to them, I'll refrain from judging / writing off / baseless accusations until some wheels have moved.

If the doomsday that you predict happens and both DC and aircoach run out of money because both are offering free journeys and shut up shop I'll gladly start a city to city service because there is demand for it.

J.pilkington

mickmmc wrote: »

Dublin Coach will have to invest over €15m to replace the 52 coaches over 13 years old (mentioned above) over the next few years. My point is that they should be investing in new coaches for existing services rather than for a new service.

I agree with your post all operators need to continually invest in new coaches. It's a customers market out there

Just to maybe correct a slight inaccuracy in the post which you pulled your info from earlier in this thread, having buses on a licence does not mean the are regularly used, they may be back up / retired but it makes sense to keep them on a licence. I see this all the time in the haulage industry, so it's unfair to use the average age that the other poster pulled. Plus the fleet is also used on the quickpark route where a lot of the older (04) bendy buses are used. As they say statistics can be masaged to give many different versions of the truth(not a dig at you)

end of the road

J.pilkington wrote: »

That is not specifically what you complained about earlier. You keep moving the goal posts when I counter your accusations and you ignore my points and move onto another accusation now you are combing everything, what's next the colour green on a bus?

nope. this never happened. the argument has been clear. the goal posts have not been moved and nothing has been counteracted by you from what i can see.

J.pilkington wrote: »

At the end of the day DCs service is going to be a cheaper and quicker service to the competitors (aircoach, bus eireann and Irish rail) so best of luck to them, I'll refrain from judging / writing off / baseless accusations until some wheels have moved.

doesn't matter. we can't tolerate operators potentially using what could be considered to be predatory tactics. there is no writing off/judging or baseless accusations, just an opinion.

devnull

J.pilkington wrote: »

If the doomsday that you predict happens and both DC and aircoach run out of money because both are offering free journeys and shut up shop I'll gladly start a city to city service because there is demand for it.

Both operators will not shut up shop, in a bus war generally one shuts up shop and the other remains, the remaining operator puts up prices and then the public end up no better off and in some cases worse off as the now monopoly operator (since you claim BE does not count) tries to recoup the money it didn't earn or lost in the bus war. This has happened time and time again.

devnull

J.pilkington wrote: »

Can you back up your claim of a predatory motive. Neither of us know the reason for the selected times. I have put forward possible reasons but I am guessing like you. Why are my possible reasons for selecting the particular times wrong and yours right?

So are you basically saying that you consider that the services are predatory, but this was not the motivation of the company and the fact that just happen to be so in the view of at least one poster on this thread (I don't include myself in that) is just a co-incidence and something that never occurred to a management team that includes people who have over 20 years of industry experience?

If you want to put your reasons once more I will happily tackle them, all you have to do is put them on paper. Please however make sure you familiarize yourself with EU regulation on cross border transport and put reasons forward with this in mind and make carefully backed up points. As far as I'm aware so far you have not put forward any reason with any factual backup whatsoever.

All you've really done is say I'm wrong, despite the fact if you go back through my posts, you will find I haven't used the word predatory once, I have never stated anyone is operating in a predatory manner, all I have simply said is that the Office of Fair Trading in the UK has found that

Predatory tactics can include upping the frequency of buses to "crowd out" rivals or timing buses to run just in front and sometimes also just behind a rival's buses. It also said bus groups could hit competition by cutting fares significantly or running buses for free."

I'm not defining Dublin Coach's service as predatory, I'm simply saying that a regulator which is tasked with dealing with competition issues in the UK, has defined such behaviours that Dublin Coach are exhibiting could be considered as being predatory.

In addition the regulations for bus licensing from the National Transport Authority of Ireland state:

In the interest of public transport users and having taken account of market demand the Authority will, when appropriate, endeavour to ensure that, licensed services are separated in time from other services along the route or in the neighbourhood/vicinity of the route, whether those other services are licensed or are Public Service Obligation services.

This will create an integrated system of services that will support the long-term availability and spread of services for public transport users. Indicative time separations are set out below: Express services 30 minute time separation from other express services.

The Authority may reject all or part of an application if the proposed service could result in head-to-head competition with an existing licence holder, jeopardising the preservation of good order and safety on public roads.

So essentially we have a competition regulator saying that free buses, significantly cut fares and running buses just behind can be considered predatory behaviour according to their investigation and the regulator of transport in Ireland saying that head to head competition is not desirable and not in the interests of long-term availability and spread of services for public transport users.

The fact that two regulators, each in a different country, have found issues with such practices as they have outlined, clearly seems to be thrown by the wayside with you. As per usual always happy to back my posts up with facts and third party sources and citing sources and situations where thinks have happened in the past, note that you are still relying on you say so, so it must be right, which shows you are struggling badly here.

J.pilkington

devnull wrote: »

the remaining operator puts up prices and then the public end up no better off and in some cases worse off as the now monopoly operator.

Would the whiter than white aircoach do this? I thought they were the poster company in terms of how to operate a bus service?

devnull

mickmmc wrote: »

The last time I travelled on Aircoach to Belfast their Jonckheere coaches were a bit tired (nearly 9 years old). Dublin Coach are taking advantage of that by putting 171 Coaches on their new service.

Aircoach will need to purchase new coaches or put the 162 and 171 Panthers on the Belfast service to compete with their competitors.

And I agree that Aircoach have perhaps rested on their laurels too much on that route, however the Jonckheere coaches are much better for comfort/legroom than the Panthers in my view, they seat 53 on a tri-axle when Panthers seat 49+ toilet on two axle, personally as a tall chap I'd rather have a bus with more comfortable seats and legroom and be a little older than a brand new bus like the new Panthers which sacrifices some of that.

J.pilkington wrote: »

At the end of the day DCs service is going to be a cheaper and quicker service to the competitors (aircoach, bus eireann and Irish rail) so best of luck to them.

But if they operated a service at another time then the public would be much better of, can't you agree with this? It's common sense to everyone but the most blinkered and the National Transport Authority in Ireland also are of the same view according to their own published regulations and guidelines on bus services.

If you have a problem with the National Transport Authority or the UK Office of Fair Trading, why not come out and say it, all I've said and will continue to say is that the tactics being employed have been considered to be predatory according to a previous investigation of the UK bus market by the UK Office of Fair Trading. Some of the tactics that they found to be predatory are being used in this situation.

Again I'm not stating that they are predatory, I'm simply saying that other parties, such as the Office of Fair Trading, consider such tactics predatory when they have occured in the UK in the past and the National Transport Authority consider such tactics as not to be in the interest of the public. These are transport and competition professionals who are paid to serve the public and ensure the market is one that is run in the benefit of the public.

devnull

J.pilkington wrote: »

Just to maybe correct a slight inaccuracy in the post which you pulled your info from earlier in this thread, having buses on a licence does not mean the are regularly used, they may be back up / retired but it makes sense to keep them on a licence.

I see this all the time in the haulage industry, so it's unfair to use the average age that the other poster pulled. Plus the fleet is also used on the quickpark route where a lot of the older (04) bendy buses are used. As they say statistics can be masaged to give many different versions of the truth(not a dig at you)

Really? Because looking around on Flickr I am struggling to find a photo of any quickpark vehicle with a 2004 registration. I can find a lot of vehicles from 2003 however and the odd one from 2007 and 2009, but since there are a lot of older 2004 bendy buses on the route, it shouldn't be too hard for you to prove me wrong should it? Did find a hell of a lot of Dublin Coach Neoplans and ex Aircoach Setras with 2004 regs,

J.pilkington

devnull wrote: »

So are you basically saying that you consider that the services are predatory,

Elaborate how you came to this daft conclusion. You are now making things up.

I'm glad I spent time tacking your baseless allegations which include;
- age of the buses
- prediction of altercations at bus stops
- selecting a time (again you have refused to address my points on this topic and moved the goal post and only want to address in combination with other issues)
- the fare structure where allegations were made that their pricing plans are unrealistic (glossing over / ignoring the term introductory and then refusing to acknowledge it's common practice)
- allegations of management motives / tactics which you have no idea of (see my final point)
- Dublin coach not investing any money to launch their service and are riding of the back of aircoachs marketing budget (laughable)

<my genuine fear> If I hadn't done the above some poor customer would stumble across this thread by googling the route providers and based on your input would choose aircoach for the fear of having to travel in a 13 year old coach with millions of kilometres which would probably break down, get involved in an altercation at a bus stop, the coach company goes bankrupt all of the while the service which is being operated is illegal in 55 countries!

And I haven't even played the card of Dublin coach being a 100% Irish owned company operating Irish registered coaches versus a massive foreign owned multinational who treats Ireland as a region of the uk in their consolidated financial statements! I am very pashinate about Irish companies. Go Goliath

You also reference the significant years of management experience of DC, surely then they would be well aware of the war aircoach brought to gobe (nothing long term anti customer there I suppose you will say) and see that there is a market for a city to city service which does not currently exist. Their own service has USPs that aircoach don't have and this is what they will sell their service on and not physically force customers at gunpoint onto their coaches as you have effectively alluded to